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State of the WinCustomize Community

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State of the WinCustomize Community

WinCustomize for the remaining year

from WinCustomize Forums

I thought now would be as good as ever to write a "State of the Community" post.  Over the past couple of weeks I have noticed a lot of negativity coming back to our forums, which have been a positive place for a while now.  Negative and discouraging comments on skins have been increasing, and when a post was made to address it, it turns into another argument and battle.  This really needs to stop and it will one way or another.

I do want to take a moment and give a big hats off to Zoomba.  Just over two years ago he took over WinCustomize and associated Stardock sites, and since then we have seen many, many improvements.  Not all are visible to everyone, but believe me a lot of work is done behind the scenes to make the experience at WinCustomize better.  If you don't listen to the WinCustomize SkinCast (which I don't know why you wouldn't), you might have missed that Zoomba has moved on from WinCustomize.  He's now doing some great work on Impulse, but thankfully he still has a part in WinCustomize, although not so much public now. 

Community

The thing I have always had pride in at WinCustomize was the community.  When I first started skinning people would jump at the opportunity to help, and not say that isn't happening now, but the tone has definitely changed over the years.  Obviously, skinning has changed over the years as well.  Commercial skinning now has a definite market and some don't seem to take too kindly to that.  Regardless of how skinning has evolved it shouldn't have an impact on how the community treats each other or behaves.

The insulting comments and bullying of other members will not be tolerated at all, regardless of their rank or status on the site.  We want WinCustomize to be a place where anyone can come and upload their skins and be part of this community, without having to be subject to ridiculous comments that only drive people away.  For newer skinners out there, you will get criticism on your works, but don't take it personally.  Listening to experienced skinners will only help you get better.  On that note, giving constructive criticism is fine, but blatant attacks and insults do not help, and will be dealt with. 

Here at WinCustomize we have a class system:

  • Citizen
  • Apprentice
  • Master Apprentice
  • Journeyman
  • Master
  • Wizop/Moderators

You can view specifics of each class here.  Basically, you start out at citizen and if you contribute skins and to the community, you will be promoted through each of the classes.  Promotion is done by recommendation and votes from the site moderators (wizops) and admins on a monthly basis.  The Journeyman level allows users to bypass moderation, so your skins go directly to the gallery.  The highest class most can achieve is Master, but this is not an easy road.  One of the advantages of becoming a Master skinner is the ability to sell your skins on WinCustomize.  There are just a handful of them currently, and we are always keeping our eye out for the next one.

This is a system that has been around for a long time, but lately I have been pondering if changes are needed, especially when it comes to the Master class.  One of the descriptions of Master is, "not only must the user be a significant contributor to the community, but instrumental to the day to day life of WinCustomize." We have Master skinners that contribute quite a bit to the galleries, both free and paid skins, but are not necessarily active in say the forums for instance.  Not everyone is into the forum scene, so how much leeway should be given for that?  Should it matter?  Those are all questions I have been asking myself lately, and one of my projects is to re-write the member descriptions and define member classes going forward. 

Ideally, I would love to see all Master skinners take a more active and positive role in the community, be true leaders to help guide the next-generation of skinners.  They are the "best of the best" in terms of what they do, but maybe just contributing skins isn't enough.  Is more community involvement needed?  I would definitely love your feedback on this.  I will also be looking for skin moderators soon, so anybody in the community that has been established for a while can feel free to contact me.

Skinning

This summer has been fantastic.  Usually during this time of year skin submissions drop to almost nothing, but not this summer.  I haven't looked at the numbers but I think submissions have actually increased.  I am also seeing a lot of new skinners make their way over here, which is even more exciting.  Skinners who have been missing for a while have also made some returns, so I am very excited on the skinning front.  Not to mention the GUI Champs 2008 is due to start very soon, I think the next half of this year is going to be great.

Halloween and the Christmas season are also approaching, and I would really like to get some good sets of skins going, possibly even another community based skin.  I also have a mockup skin that will be the basis of a community project, but not until the GUI Champs is done.  You all have enough on your hands as is.

Although I can't mention specifics, we have also been tossing around ideas for the next version of WinCustomize.  Although nothing is set or guaranteed, I'm really hoping to have a bigger focus on personal pages and sorting of galleries.  I will leave it at that for now. 

Now lets address some issues people have been bringing up lately, and attempt to squash problems going forward.  Gallery moderation has been going pretty smoothly.  Most skins are moderated in good time, and we have been working to make sure a clear set of guidelines are followed.  To make things easier for everyone, I wrote the Tips for Moderation guide which everyone who submits skins should look over. 

Let me now emphasize some things to end some discussions and problems:

  • Resetting skin dates on updates will only be moderated if the skin has a significant change.  Fixing a start menu issue, or altering the color slightly does not constitute that.  Trying to game the system to stay on the front page of downloads will no longer pass.

  • Vista clones are permitted within reason.  Some of the most popular skins across the net are modifications of Vista.  The advantage we have with WindowBlinds is that the skins can be much, much better than the default Aero look.  Now we all have personal opinions on Vista looking skins, and the origins of images, but it's things we have gone through and determined it's not a simple matter to determine who created what. 

  • Multiple colors of the same skin must be included in a pack, or sub-styles.  SkinStudio has a remarkable re-coloring feature which makes making separate colored sub-styles very easy so this is what I would recommend.

Conclusion

Overall, I have been very happy with the state of WinCustomize this year.  Although there are some minor bumps in the road lately, those are ending today and I expect a great time for the rest of this year.  Your comments and feedback are welcomed.

43,823 views 49 replies
Reply #26 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Although I can't mention specifics, we have also been tossing around ideas for the next version of WinCustomize. Although nothing is set or guaranteed, I'm really hoping to have a bigger focus on personal pages and sorting of galleries. I will leave it at that for now.




GRREAT! when can we start with the brain storms?  :D 
Reply #27 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Since Day One in skinning it has always been acceptable practise to port an OS graphics to another program. The earliest I can remember was Amiga to Litestep....that was around '97 or '98. Currently you have Vista's default graphics ported to Windowblinds so they end up on XP, say. There is one proviso, however...on any of these 'ports'. If and when the OS 'owner' decides it is not acceptable the offending work is removed.
I struggle with the logic here. Would it also be deemed acceptable if someone used some of the graphic elements of lets say a gef skin to create art work for a WB and gef himself did not complain and demand removal? Is there any difference? It seems that the policy is a matter of convenience based on the popularity of clones, ports, what have you, which by the way, I agree that WC has every right to make from a business point of view. Perhaps, I am missing something or being overly simplistic. As I said, I struggle with the logic. A timely and excellent post on the state of things ID. Thank you. There have always been little bumps in the road but in the case of WC, the good always out weighs the bad.
TouchTasks - Access tasks with ease on Windows touchscreens.
Reply #28 from WinCustomize Forums Top
ID....As far as your pondering the "Master" class spending more time in the forums...I'm sure it would be great and beneficial to some people and I'm sure a lot of the Masters have thought about it...but the problem is...time...it takes a lot time to produce those Master skins...they don't just pop out of thin air...so if they spend more time in the forums...the less time they have doing what they do best. So I think a lot of leeway should be given to them. Just my 2 cents.

I myself am always willing to answer questions of help anyone interested in creating docks. Hell....I'll even tutor over the phone if needed. ;)
Reply #29 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I struggle with the logic here. Would it also be deemed acceptable if someone used some of the graphic elements of lets say a gef skin to create art work for a WB and gef himself did not complain and demand removal? Is there any difference? It seems that the policy is a matter of convenience based on the popularity of clones, ports, what have you, which by the way, I agree that WC has every right to make from a business point of view. Perhaps, I am missing something or being overly simplistic. As I said, I struggle with the logic. A timely and excellent post on the state of things ID. Thank you. There have always been little bumps in the road but in the case of WC, the good always out weighs the bad.
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Difference is partly, one is a private entity and the other is corporate. Porting Os's has always been common place, as typically it is looked upon as fostering interest/advertising. On a rare occasion the Owner of the OS has requested specific skins to be removed for various reasons. It was figured a long time ago that if the owner of the os left a skin alone then it was silently accepted. If they wanted they have the resources to hunt each one down and ask it's removal, where as a single skinner does not. A single skinner is much more likely to make sure his rights are not infringed. So they typically do not allow "silent" porting.


As for the community. Together we stand divided we fall. Id really hate to see WC go the way of custo.org.

Play nice folks..
Reply #30 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Difference is partly, one is a private entity and the other is corporate.


I do not sell skins but if I did, I would certainly take in the revenue via an LLC at the least for a whole variety of reasons. Unless, by corporate you mean publicly traded and I see no difference there. A company might decide that the stopping of a skin causes more bad PR than it is worth, but that is another matter entirely as it is merely a temporary decision until they decide otherwise. They always maintain the right. Having said that, I would agree that it would get harder and harder to enforce based on "past practices".

On a rare occasion the Owner of the OS has requested specific skins to be removed for various reasons. It was figured a long time ago that if the owner of the os left a skin alone then it was silently accepted. If they wanted they have the resources to hunt each one down and ask it's removal, where as a single skinner does not. A single skinner is much more likely to make sure his rights are not infringed.


This seems contradictory to me. If the single skinner does not have the resources, than how would he/she be more likely to make sure his rights are not infringed?

As for the community. Together we stand divided we fall. Id really hate to see WC go the way of custo.org.


Agreed 100% :)

Play nice folks..


I always do.
Reply #31 from WinCustomize Forums Top
As for the community. Together we stand divided we fall. Id really hate to see WC go the way of custo.org.


Absolutely not.  This article was not intended to be negative, just the opposite really.  The community overall is fantastic, the amount of skinning has increased, so it's good stuff all around.  Just a few minor issues to snub before they turn into major ones.  Otherwise, I predict the rest of this year will be just as great.  :)


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Reply #32 from WinCustomize Forums Top

The 'history' of skinning the Windows OS [that which essentially concerns us most, hence the site name, etc] has always been about altering the OS GUI [Graphic User Interface] [or 'shell'], and/or its parts.

Now, by definition, if the OS is NOT skinned it'll look just like.....the OS [strange, that].

But...

If one were to skin it one of the very first thoughts/directions would be...."hey...what if we make this shitty Win95 look like a Mac and scare the neighbours"...and thus OS 'porting' was very early on the agenda.

I remember people hunting through the obscure, 'back-yard' OS's and shells looking for something that'd be "really neat to make Windows look like".  Remember BeOS?  There came a time where there were likely MORE BeOS imitations that were actually a Windows environment than there were actual BeOS users.

It has always been accepted practise to allow such OS copying/porting and, as far as I can recall there has only been two formal objections from the IP owners - both adhered-to.

Now, if skinner A were to make a variation of BeOS to 'skin' Windowblinds that's fine and dandy.  If skinner B then did the same no-one can have issue with it....if both were independent.  However....if skinner B simply took the already adapted images that skinner A made and used them as his own...THEN we get the beginnings of  what's called a 'rip' issue.

Coincidental ports are unfortunate in as much as they give the impression that someone copied/plagiarised/ripped when infact there is a legitimate argument they are simply both ports of the same origin and thus alike.

Life is much simpler [for the moderator] when something 'unique' is created...that bears NO RESEMBLANCE with anything prior.....and a second party submits something with the same images that 'should' be unique to the first.

Then there's reasonable grounds to act.

This is NOT a 'double standard'. A double standard implies different rules being applied to the same situation.  This is infact different rules applying to different situations - something entirely logical and understandable....;)

Reply #33 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Great thread! I'd like to say that I'm not a 'skinner' in the WC sense. I'm an MD (I do deal with lots of skins ;) , though).

In my profession, we achieve success by standing on the shoulders of those who came before us. To try to do it any other way is mostly foolish (I say mostly because sometimes serendipity occurs and valuable finds can be made by 'reinventing' the wheel).

Artists, though, are different in that they always start at some idea or object found in "reality" and alter it somehow. Thus, their work is the "lie that emulates reality". It doesn't matter if the reality is a picture, or color or emotion. Using that logic, no work is "original". When broken down to components, something was pre-existant.

However, the act of "breaking it down" causes one to miss the beauty of the intact object. Things of beauty are more than the sum of their parts. Usually the better the parts, the better the whole but oddly, imperfections can make the work more beautiful (i.e. the Parthenon).

Thus, the "Original" argument breaks down at some level, but paradoxically we reject this. Why? Because we are creatures with an ego. All of us. That's why courtesy and civility were invented: So we could live in peace with each other.

When one gets the urge to "flame", it's usually because he/she feels insulted. Pause a moment at that point (even though it's very hard to do that) and examine why you feel insulted. Invariably it's because you have "accepted" or fear others accept this insult as being true. Wouldn't it be wiser and less violent to disengage at this point? Yes, it would. When we don't succeed is when our egos (spelling?) trigger our tempers.

There's no easy cure for this. I've been working on mine for years. Ironically, it's been Zubaz's way of handling "difficult moments" that has given me an insight: Humor through self effacement or self ridicule is the highest form of humor.

Thanks for the thread ID and thanks, Zubaz for your gentle humor. :)
Reply #34 from WinCustomize Forums Top
It has always been accepted practise to allow such OS copying/porting and, as far as I can recall there has only been two formal objections from the IP owners - both adhered-to.


If porting in this manner, cloning, or whatever we are calling it, is not improper use of others images why were the request for removal adhered to?

Now, if skinner A were to make a variation of BeOS to 'skin' Windowblinds that's fine and dandy. If skinner B then did the same no-one can have issue with it....if both were independent. However....if skinner B simply took the already adapted images that skinner A made and used them as his own...THEN we get the beginnings of what's called a 'rip' issue


Got it! Thanks!

Life is much simpler [for the moderator] when something 'unique' is created...that bears NO RESEMBLANCE with anything prior.....and a second party submits something with the same images that 'should' be unique to the first


If I insert Aero in place of unique (as it certainly was new)......????

This is NOT a 'double standard'. A double standard implies different rules being applied to the same situation. This is infact different rules applying to different situations - something entirely logical and understandable....


I am certainly not trying knit pick this issue to death and I will work on trying to understand the finesse in this concluding statement. Thank you.



Reply #35 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Why should someone get promoted here when they aren't even active here? If there's someone active on dA who uploads a bunch of stuff there, but nothing here, how are they doing WC any good? How are they benefiting this community?


Good point Bebi. That was part of the clarification I was seeking (which Jafo aptly provided) when I asked this earlier:

Just my opinion, but it seems this statement would be more accurate with the word 'Wincustomize' in place of 'community'

... unless of course there is an implied assumption that Wincustomize is the community.


As Jafo pointed out, WC is not the community. It is a part of the community at large and will recognize contributors to that community regardless of their 'home'.
Reply #36 from WinCustomize Forums Top

If porting in this manner, cloning, or whatever we are calling it, is not improper use of others images why were the request for removal adhered to?

I think HG_E commented about that above....but it's about the nature of our beast.  We skin 'for' [mostly] the MS OS so more often than not MS accepts what is done as an extension of its own product, and as much of it revolves around stand-alone software such as Windowblinds it 'does no harm' [where-as the argument is a little different with the patching of MS dll's and the subsequent potential breaking of the OS integrity].

Example of how a skinner extends a proggy functionality/application.....you extract an ico file [or similar] from your Photoshop install...and adapt it to become an OD Icon.  Now people with OD can use this icon to launch their Photoshop.  It's a win-win situation for all.

Now...Adobe owns that image used...so if they were to say "we do NOT want you to use our program launch icon in your Dock to launch our software" we'd be obliged to remove it....but think about it....it's still 'their icon' launching 'their product' so it's sensible that they would/do allow its use.  All the skinner has done is to save Adobe from creating launch icons/images/whatever for every potential GUI application....;)

Talk about wobbling way off topic here....but one way or another it's sort of followed on....;)

Reply #37 from WinCustomize Forums Top

As Jafo pointed out, WC is not the community. It is a part of the community at large and will recognize contributors to that community regardless of their 'home'.

Probably important to point out that it's always been the case that the 'higher' up the ladder you go the more focus/commitment is needed to be placed with Wincustomize...eg. Masters really 'need' to consider Wincusto their home-base. [certainly if you're an admin you bloody-well better...;) ]

Reply #38 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Basically, as long as no one finds out, cares, says anything, its ok to cheat.

How chivalrous... sounds like one very convenient excuse to rip. I seriously pity anyone who uses this as justifiation to pick and choose who's work their going to steal.

Look my whole point is I guess I'm hoping sincerely to maintain higher standards for the community, seems ironic to me that the community tolerates it to the point that I feel like I'm being the bad guy for trying.
Reply #39 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Thanks for your patience Paul. Knowing you , there is an answer to my question in your reply somewhere. I just can't see it at the moment. Now I feel like I am hogging the thread.
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Reply #40 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Lets face it, negativity breeds negativity, i read a lot of these forums and for the amount of messages, the negative ones are few, plus the fact that sometimes some people tend to be "tough guys" behind a keyboard and monitor, i tend to be a very critical and fussy person, and Stardock, Wincustomize, etc i find them just great, if i have a problem i post it here and the response to it is extremely fast, and usually right, plus it is a great place to learn things you didnt know, and it sure beats reading the news where there is nothing but bad news to report, just my two cents
Reply #41 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Look my whole point is I guess I'm hoping sincerely to maintain higher standards for the community, seems ironic to me that the community tolerates it to the point that I feel like I'm being the bad guy for trying.
So do your best to nudge skinners.  If your nudge fails . . stop.    Walk away from that skinner that doesn't want your help.  If they have serious problems the "market" (or community) will take care of it.  Just be moderate. :)

It's your "job" as a master to help others . .it's the Moderators job to handle problems.

I played Everquest a few years ago.  I wasn't into it like the guys I hung out with.  Towards the end they gave me some really great advice, "Know your job.  Kill bats."  It's all I was good for and doing that improved everyone's experience.  :)
Reply #42 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Multiple colors of the same skin must be included in a pack, or sub-styles. SkinStudio has a remarkable re-coloring feature which makes making separate colored sub-styles very easy so this is what I would recommend.


I agree.....this should be a requirement. Given the ability of Windowblinds to alter the color of any skin I can't think of a single good reason to have more than one "version" of a skin in the library.


I believe the Master Program works well. I can't think of a single Master that I feel isn't qualified to be one. I do think that downloads should NOT be the driving force for selection and I would give the Masters a "vote" in who joins their circle. Who would better recognize another Master.

As far as the ongoing row, while I tend to agree with some of "Masters" points I also believe that everyone (especially the site staff & moderators) is aware of their concerns and further verbal jousting is a waste of time unless they have something new to bring to the table. Required Site conduct should apply to all equally in any case.


Separate and apart from the ongoing skinner clash, there is also the plethora of Impulse bashing threads which has helped set a negative tone here at WC. A vast majority of the whiners are gamers but since that's one of the "cross-posting" areas the skinning community is constantly drawn into the battles as well. I don't think we can do much but grin and bear it until Stardock has Impulse working for the whining minority.
Reply #43 from WinCustomize Forums Top
certainly if you're an admin you bloody-well better..


I think we can accept that as a given ;)
Reply #44 from WinCustomize Forums Top
This was a really nice [and awfully long] read....great work, ID ;)

Also, a question: People who don't skin, or can't skin, or won't skin, yet they're really active in the forums and all, are they eligible for promotion too? :d
Reply #45 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Also, a question: People who don't skin, or can't skin, or won't skin, yet they're really active in the forums and all, are they eligible for promotion too?
very much so
Reply #46 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Also, a question: People who don't skin, or can't skin, or won't skin, yet they're really active in the forums and all, are they eligible for promotion too?


Have you met Zubaz? :d
Reply #47 from WinCustomize Forums Top
This seems contradictory to me. If the single skinner does not have the resources, than how would he/she be more likely to make sure his rights are not infringed?


let me clarify.

A single skinner typically is less willing to allow unauthorized ports of their images than most "non graphics sales" based companies. Private skinners expect permissions to be asked before you port. They do not have the resources available to watch every site and upload so it falls on the community to help them spot and be aware of unauthorized ports etc and let them deal with them. ( WC rejects those without permissions until permission is obtained.)

Many companies silently allow porting to go on as long as they are not detracting from the original. Tho they have the right to request them to be removed usually they choose not to. This has been in effect as long as I can remember. Note most of these companies are not in Graphics sales or solely make their living off selling the images being ported. Jafos Icon example was right on.


Skinning companies etc are very adamant about their rights and we realize they do not typically allow unauthorized ports, so we watch for those trying to help them out.

Basically, as long as no one finds out, cares, says anything, its ok to cheat.

How chivalrous... sounds like one very convenient excuse to rip. I seriously pity anyone who uses this as justifiation to pick and choose who's work their going to steal.



Believe me if they wanted all the ports removed.. they would go after them in a heart beat. In fact they targeted one specifically not to long ago. It all but disappeared off the net. There were quite a few ports of the same item at the time. It was their choice to go after one and let the others slide.
Reply #48 from WinCustomize Forums Top
let me clarify.


Good clarification. Thanks!
Reply #49 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Also, a question: People who don't skin, or can't skin, or won't skin, yet they're really active in the forums and all, are they eligible for promotion too?

I'm certainly not a skinner, but along with Aaron, I share the Wizop badge too. Skinning isn't the only way to help the community, we need skinners to make skins...and people to help others figure out how to use them. ;)