Paladin77

Join Date 11/2006

+11

World War IV

It is America’s fault that Russia was forced to defend itself against Georgia and started the beginning of the fourth world war. Here is how I got there.

We showed weakness to Russia with our war on terrorism. Russia asked us if this was what we really wanted to do and did we know if we went to war with terrorists it would not be a short bloodless war? We went into Afghanistan and did so well Russia began to respect us, Iran offered intelligence to help us. Then we went into Iraq and again we gained more respect. Then the left began their crap. We showed the one thing that we can never show the world. We showed political weakness the one thing that concerned Russia when we joined the war on terrorism.

Iran first smelled blood with all the protests but moved slowly putting troops and weapons in Iraq and attacking us. We replied with a surge and Iran backed off a bit and then Russia started to push. Mr. Putin stated publicly that Russia needs to put missiles in Cuba again. We ignored him and he pushed again. Political weakness is all our enemies understand and see. Each time our president does not do what they expect a strong leader to do it is seen as political weakness. An example would be, Mr. Bush was verbally attacked by the democrats in congress. He did nothing. People whispered things about Mr. Putin that he did not like and they were killed. See the difference?

To date 42 separate attacks on the United States by armed troops of another government has been allowed to happen on our soil this year and nothing was done to stop it. This is an act of war yet we have not even said we disapprove, let along attack the nation that sent the troops into our country and killed our citizens. When our federal officers shoot back they are put up on charges and sentenced to jail. This information is well known and our enemies have seen our weakness.

The attack on Georgia was instant from Russia. We watched them build up troops for over a year and all we did was try to put Georgia in NATO. This was shot down because Europe is weaker than America. We are being attacked on several fronts and on several levels. This is one war that requires a strong spine and a lot of guts.

America must go it alone or die as a nation. Europe can not help us because they are held hostage by Russia. 25% of the oil used in Europe comes from Russia. 40% of the natural gas used in Europe comes from Russia. They can’t stop Russia without hardship and they would rather get along with a dictator than stand up to one.

The liberals in America are the same way proving we are ripe for attack. We are now faced with two options, both are distasteful. Send in troops to support Georgia and fight a small war. Or let Russia reconstitute the Soviet Union with its one fatal flaw gone, and fight them in five years when they are ready to fight us.

Poland and the Czech Republic see what is happening and did an about face, last month Poland turned down our offer to put a missile defense shield in their country. After the attack on Georgia they said yesterday they welcome the shield and all the US help. The Czech Republic has also asked for any and all assistance from America. The rest of Europe is still sitting on the fence. Here is the Russian response to Poland’s request to be our friend.

According to the Associated Press, the Russians have threatened a nuclear attack on Poland. AP: "A top Russian general said [today] that Poland's agreement to accept a US missile interceptor base exposes the ex-communist nation [Poland] to attack, possibly by nuclear weapons..." The Russian general said, "'Poland, by deploying (the system) is exposing itself to a strike -- 100 percent,' Nogovitsyn, the deputy chief of staff, was quoted as saying. He added ... that Russia's military doctrine sanctions the use of nuclear weapons 'against the allies of countries having nuclear weapons if they in some way help them,'" meaning the US has nukes, Poland is helping us by allowing us to put the interceptor base there, so the Russians are saying they have a "doctrine" that allows us to nuke our ally!

This scares me because WWI was started because of the assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand by a Czech separatist, and defense treaties were called in and the war went from one country with an internal problem to a full world war.

WWII was kicked off when Poland was invaded by Germany. Yes, I know the Sudetenland was taken first but in appeasement we gave that away. Poland was the starter because treaties again will be called in and we are one of the nations that have a treaty with Poland, Georgia, and the Czech Republic.

Russia has stated that we mush choose which side we are on, theirs or the nations we have pledged support. Russia is betting that we will run like a wall of feathers in a hurricane. If we do, then we will be in their sights within the next five years. How long will it take for Iran to make a land grab on Iraq? China to do the same with Taiwan?

Oh and if you think that we don’t look weak the last 42 attacks by armed troops from Mexico. One incursion went from our border to phoenix to shoot a man. Another was in San Antonio. We are not talking border towns and the troops made a mistake as to where the nations borders were.

November 21, 2005--- In what can only be called a military attack, Mexican troops brandishing weapons stole contraband worth millions of dollars while holding Border Patrol agents at gunpoint.

There have now been over 800 killed in the South Texas border zone in the last year. Car bombs in Dallas, machine-gunning deaths on a daily basis, the US Mission has been shut down in Neuvo Laredo because of persistent rocket-propelled grenade attacks.

But putting up a fence to protect us is racist?

We need to put an end to this silliness or we will be under attack by every country that thinks they can get away with it.

We have the troops to do it we better start using them or we will be losing them and us.

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Can anyone come up with a different opinion that makes sense?

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You have your facts wrong. I don't have time to go into detail now but just your first sentence is inaccurate. Russia was NOT forced to defend itself against Georgia. Georgia did not ATTACK Russia. Russia trained and planned for this.

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Oh man!

This is a good saturday morning comedy routine Paladin. I needed a good laugh!

We went into Afghanistan and did so well Russia began to respect us

The conflict in Afghanistan is still ongoing. In the last 3 months the co-ordination and sophistication of Taliban attacks has increased significantly (yes, that's right, Taliban, in almost 7 years the Taliban is still calling most of the shots in the ongoing insurgency) So much so that they managed to raid a major, heavily guarded prison and free several hundred of their fellows, and also conducted a raid on a U.S firebase that very nearly succeeded in overrunning them (this was carried out in chilling similarity to the manner in which many mujahideen attacked and overran Soviet firebases in remote areas)

So to say that Afghanistan has been "won" is showing ignorance in history and current events. Truth is, Afghanistan has never been truly "won" by any imperial power, only occupied for a matter of years until for one reason or another the imperial power of the day decides to get out!

The attack on Georgia was instant from Russia. We watched them build up troops for over a year and all we did was try to put Georgia in NATO.

AAahh ha ha ha hah ha ha ha ha aaaha hahaha!!!!

Ok, sorry. Had to get that out of my system. We did not watch them build up troops for over a year. In fact, we've been arming Georgia for the last 3 years with way more firepower than any similar sized nation could ever dream of. And Russia didn't attack out of the blue... do you know why they attacked Georgia??? hmmm??? And I quote-

"During the night of August 7, coinciding with the opening ceremony of the Beijing Olympics, Georgia's president Saakashvili ordered an all-out military attack on Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia.

The aerial bombardments and ground attacks were largely directed against civilian targets including residential areas, hospitals and the university. The provincial capital Tskhinvali was destroyed. The attacks resulted in some 1500 civilian deaths, according to both Russian and Western sources. "The air and artillery bombardment left the provincial capital without water, food, electricity and gas. Horrified civilians crawled out of the basements into the streets as fighting eased, looking for supplies." (AP, August 9, 2008). According to reports, some 34,000 people from South Ossetia have fled to Russia. (Deseret Morning News, Salt Lake City, August 10, 2008)"

What happened was that Russia watched us arm Georgia for the last 3 years. And we're not talking rifles and grenades, although those were included too. We're talking heavy offensive weaponry, C3 gear, and extensive training. So to say that we've been "weak" on Georgia is a flat out lie. We turned them into an armed camp and then gave them the go-ahead to attack south Ossetia.

There was no pressing need to do this. South Ossetia posed no threat. And the timing? During the opening of the Olympics??? Seeing as we've been arming Georgia disproportionately for years, to think that they would just out of the blue decide to start bombarding a city with heavy weapons for kicks is also ridiculous. We told them to go in, we pushed them to invade.

Russia had no choice in their response. Over 70,000 South Ossetians hold Russian passports. South Ossetia practically shares a border with Russia (it's very close) so it's in their interest to defend their citizens. The point is, if Georgia HAD NOT attacked south Ossetia out of the blue, Russia would not have attacked Georgia!

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Anthony R

Join Date 01/2003

+59

The last time I felt like this was after watching Linsay Lohans 'I know who Killed Me ." Even though the movie was in English, I still could have benefited greatly if it were subtitled.

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We went into Afghanistan and did so well Russia began to respect us
The conflict in Afghanistan is still ongoing. In the last 3 months the co-ordination and sophistication of Taliban attacks has increased significantly (yes, that's right, Taliban, in almost 7 years the Taliban is still calling most of the shots in the ongoing insurgency)

Sucess is relative. No one will argue that the American experience in Afghanistan is much better than the soviet.

But your objections aside, you see to be missing the forrest for the trees.

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Yeah I know this, Russia is saying they were attacked and forced to defend themselves. It is good that you kept up with it. I sort of pointed this out when I wrote how we had watched them build up for the last year.

This is a good saturday morning comedy routine Paladin. I needed a good laugh!

Happy to please. Still waiting for you to answer stuff from other posts but I guess you are too busy laughing.

Russia was there for 9 almost 10 years and left with their tail between its legs. We have been in there for 7 years and the best the Taliban can do is hit us in isolated pockets. They are currently attacking road building crews because if there is a good road and communication there is no more Taliban in the area. This was not the case when the USSR attacked and made war. The USSR was basically stuck in forts and only controlled the area around each fort and nothing else. That is significant, and impressive for Russia. You would know that if you did any research on the topic.

So to say that Afghanistan has been "won" is showing ignorance in history and current events.

And changing the topic shows your inability to argue your point. I never stated the war in Afghanistan was won or finished. That is an assumption on your part in order to change the tone of the argument without providing any substance. Nice try.

Ok, sorry. Had to get that out of my system. We did not watch them build up troops for over a year.

So the satellite intelligence that showed the build up was false? The president running to Europe to beg them to admit Georgia into NATO was just a lark, for no reason, no sense of urgency? Wow.

If we gave the go ahead then why are we saying we advised against it? Nothing I have read says otherwise. What have you read?

I bow to your knowledge on this affair. Where did you read that we pushed them into this? Who told them to invade?

i thought I read somewhere that Russia gave them citizenship and offered protection. What I find strange is that you say this was a surprise attack from Georgia, yet the response came from the local area rather than main military bases in Russia.

It really does not matter because my point is that this was the opening move for WWIV.

The last time I felt like this was after watching Linsay Lohans 'I know who Killed Me ." Even though the movie was in English, I still could have benefited greatly if it were subtitled.

Please explain.

Sucess is relative. No one will argue that the American experience in Afghanistan is much better than the soviet.

I am arguing that fact. The Soviets needed heavy air support anytime they moved ground troops outside of their safe zones that were not all that safe. We are driving trucks on roads and the deeper into the country we build roads the farther back the Taliban is forced to retreat. AQ is in hiding and we are talking about the strategists that fought the Soviets. Their battle plan is not working all that well for them this time around. The Soviets lost almost a million men or between both sides a million died I don’t remember for sure. We have not lost a huge amount of troops, our morale is still high, I have a guy I work with that is going back to play there as he calls it. This is not what happened when the Soviets were there.

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I am arguing that fact.

I think you are arguing the same side of my poorly worded statement. The American Afghanistan is much better than the Soviet one, even if no one is out there proclaiming "peace in our time" has occurred.

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btw, when was world war III? I must have missed it.

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btw, when was world war III? I must have missed it.

It's possible. Many people seem to have missed it.

It was the so-called Cold War. It was fought in a few countries are some countries were merely on the front line and close to fighting several times.

I myself grew up in West-Berlin, surrounded by the front line. The US motorpool stationed in Berlin back then had to be seen to be believed!

And when I say "cold war", that's just the name given to it by those who were mostly unaffected. In Vietnam, Korea, China, Hungary, Chechoslovakia, Israel, and even East-Germany it wasn't that "cold", and in Romania it certainly didn't end in such a "cold" way either.

(Yugoslavia fought their own version of the war mostly in the 90s.)

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It was the so-called Cold War. It was fought in a few countries are some countries were merely on the front line and close to fighting several times.

I don't consider the Cold War - World War III. I don't even really think it was a war.

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btw, when was world war III? I must have missed it.

That would be the war on terror that has been going on against america since the 70's.

It was the so-called Cold War. It was fought in a few countries are some countries were merely on the front line and close to fighting several times.

I would tend to disagree, the cold war was just that a war without the military. The war on terror is an offshoot of the cold war but it has involved military action since the 1970’s and is world wide. Where as the cold war was more of a pissing contest between four nations.

Have to agree with your points here, but they were just pawns used to keep it from going nuclear. This current war can go nuclear very easily.

I don't consider the Cold War - World War III. I don't even really think it was a war.

I agree with you. The cold war, other than the proxy wars like Korea, Vietnam, and Afghanistan, were wars between intelligence agencies and propaganda machines.

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I don't consider the Cold War - World War III. I don't even really think it was a war.

As I said, it depends on how involved one was with the fighting.

I remember seeings the tanks of both sides.

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We did not watch them build up troops for over a year. In fact, we've been arming Georgia for the last 3 years with way more firepower than any similar sized nation could ever dream of. And Russia didn't attack out of the blue... do you know why they attacked Georgia??? hmmm??? And I quote-
"During the night of August 7, coinciding with the opening ceremony of the Beijing Olympics, Georgia's president Saakashvili ordered an all-out military attack on Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia.

Okay, after some research I must revise my position on the invasion of Georgia by Russia.

Three years ago anyone that wanted Russian citizenship was awarded it. Those that took it then began a run of ethnic cleansing within the borders of Georgia. We began to arm them at that point.
Burning down homes of Georgians is okay with you and us arming an ally is bad. When Georgians defend their people against people killing and burning out their citizens this is a bad thing.

Sorry I don’t think the timing is all that important as far as the Olympics are concerned, not many are watching the Olympics. I don’t even know anyone that has watched the Olympics, but I don’t know that many people. As a world distraction it is not there, more people are looking at the price of oil, and because of this war and the conservation the price of oil has dropped.

Dr, I am sorry if you misunderstood my point. I was reinforcing your statement, not challenging it. Please forgive me.

I remember seeings the tanks of both sides.

Tanks on both sided that stretched out for miles. Yes, it looked bad but that was posturing on both sides. If a war broke out the tanks would be useless, since both sides doctrine said that tanks and troops would be used to buy time until the nukes could fly.

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Three years ago anyone that wanted Russian citizenship was awarded it. Those that took it then began a run of ethnic cleansing within the borders of Georgia. We began to arm them at that point. Burning down homes of Georgians is okay with you and us arming an ally is bad. When Georgians defend their people against people killing and burning out their citizens this is a bad thing. Sorry I don’t think the timing is all that important as far as the Olympics are concerned, not many are watching the Olympics. I don’t even know anyone that has watched the Olympics, but I don’t know that many people. As a world distraction it is not there, more people are looking at the price of oil, and because of this war and the conservation the price of oil has dropped.

And this further illustrates your ignorance of the situation. Do you know anything about Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia? It's a city with no major military bases or depots. It's mills and factories, oh yeah and houses and hospitals. The president of Georgia ordered a full scale aerial and artillery attack with heavy weapons on this city, an attack which killed nearly 2,000 civillians in one night (originally believed to be 1,500 but has now been revised upward)

Then the Georgian troops moved in and took over, with snipers shooting at any civillians they felt like. Many of these people killed and who fled were Russian nationals.

The U.S invaded Panama and Grenada in the past with the rationale of defending their nationals. Why shouldn't Russia be able to do the same? Oh yes, on that fateful night that the president of Georgia ordered his army to invade south Ossetia, 10 Russian peacekeepers were also killed by Georgian forces. Peacekeepers that were supposed to be there due to a treaty signed between Russia and Georgia in 1999 regarding the autonomous area of South Ossetia So that is technically an act of aggression on the part of Georgia against Russia.

At the end of the day there is absolutely no justification for Georgia to just start bombarding a civillian target out of the blue, and then invade in force!

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Please read this interesting letter from the Russian Ambassador to Nato-

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/18/opinion/edrogozin.php

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Okay

Paladin, you are arguing with someone who just announced on another thread that he doesn't see what good the peace treaties between Egypt and Israel and Jordan and Israel are.

You are trying to find out how to preserve peace by arguing with someone who doesn't see peace as a good thing.

I hope it's worth it...

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Dr, I am sorry if you misunderstood my point. I was reinforcing your statement, not challenging it. Please forgive me.

Sorry, I guess my writing was ok, my reading just sucks.

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you are arguing with someone who just announced on another thread that he doesn't see what good the peace treaties between Egypt and Israel and Jordan and Israel are.

Where was this said? Can you quote the exact words? Otherwise, please don't try to put words in other people's mouths!

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Sorry, Artysim. Confused you with "ThinkAloud":

From what i read in the non-fanatical Arab media, the way they feel now is as follows:

for the past 20 yrs or more, the moderate policies of Egypt and Jordon achieved nothing so far so why should they continue to support these policies?

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Do you know anything about Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia?

I will ask again, where you are getting this information. Ambassador Holbrook who worked for Mr. Carter and Mr. Clinton was there in Georgia and reported that the Russians were the aggressor, how he had seen the ethnic cleansing results. How he had seen Russians dressed in Georgian uniforms drinking and in the middle of the day. And the reports of snipers shooting civilians was the Russians not the Georgians. I would like to read this information so I can be better informed. If our administration is pulling a fast one I want to see it and condemn it. Either I am misreading the reports and mishearing the ambassador, I watched the live report from Georgia, or you are. I don’t care which as long as I have the facts.

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The U.S invaded Panama and Grenada in the past with the rationale of defending their nationals. Why shouldn't Russia be able to do the same?

Panama was invaded because the leader was out of control and the treaty with panama stated that if we believed the canal was threatened in any way we would be back in force. We kept our end of the treaty.

In Grenada our citizens were held by hostel forces. If they wanted to avoid the invasion they simply had to expel the Americans.

In Georgia the Russians granted citizenship to people after the nation voted to separate from Russia, elected a president, and Russia fostered and allowed a campaign of ethnic cleansing to begin, all while massing troops to respond when the president tried to put a stop to it.

Maybe we should do the same thing. We will grant citizenship to Iranians and then invade Iran when they mistreat our people. This is exactly what Russia did. Do you see the difference?

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Please read this interesting letter from the Russian Ambassador to Nato-

I find it puzzling that you accept the word of Russia at face value while dismissing out of hand the word of America without any research.

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Maybe we should do the same thing. We will grant citizenship to Iranians and then invade Iran when they mistreat our people. This is exactly what Russia did. Do you see the difference?

This would work. There are many in Iran who would accept American citizenship and those same people are probably even ethnic minorities. (Only 51% of Iranians are actual "Iranians", the rest are Turkmen and related peoples as well as Kurds, some remaining Jews, Armenians, Arabs and so on.)

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I will ask again, where you are getting this information

Did you read the link I posted to the letter from the Russian Ambassador to NATO???

In regards to the demographics of S. Ossetia and it's capital you can find all about in about 5 minutes online.

Western news mostly ignored the fact that GEORGIA attacked first and carried out airstrikes and artillery bombardments on a defenceless city that killed 1,500- 2,000 civillians in one night. There is no ambiguity here- Georgia carried out a full-scale bombardment on a tiny, defenceless area that has been an autonomous region for years now. As to your assertion of ethnic cleansing on the part of the Russians, where is your proof? Do you know how tiny S. Ossetia is? It's less than 50 miles by 50 miles, tiny. There's less than 100,000 people who live there. To state that the Russians carried out ethnic cleansing while disguised in Georgian uniforms is absolutely ridiculous. I can state that it was really all started by aliens from pluto, but that doesn't make it true.

What is undeniable is that the president of Georgia ordered his army to attack and invade a civillian target that posed no threat to his country. This tiny area is on the border with Russia and many of it's inhabitants are Russian citizens. Just as the U.S invaded in Grenada and Panama in the name of protecting their citizens and national interest, so too did Russia do the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1TaK39QK44

This is an excerpt from Gorbachev, that crazy war-mongering communist that pursued nuclear disarmament and peretroika!

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To state that the Russians carried out ethnic cleansing while disguised in Georgian uniforms is absolutely ridiculous. I can state that it was really all started by aliens from pluto, but that doesn't make it true.

This is why I have trouble accepting what you are saying, this is the second time you have misrepresented what I wrote.

The ethnic cleansing started years ago and at that point we started to build up their forces. The Russians began to build thier forces after that.

The Russians in Georgian uniforms was seen and reported by Ambassador Holbrook yesterday or the day before from Georgia. You confused two different statements into one using the current timeline rather than the acts being separate by time and occurrence. Nowhere in my reply did I even link the two. So if you can’t get that straight how am I to believe you have your information straight? This is why I asked where you got the information you are using. I rarely ask for this type of information but it has me worried that one of us is using selective reading and to be fair and honest I am giving you the benefit of the doubt.

What is undeniable is that the president of Georgia ordered his army to attack and invade a civillian target that posed no threat to his country.

Ethnic cleansing within his borders is a threat, it is his business, and it is his duty to bring it to a halt. As you pointed out the area in question is within his borders. He is the elected president of his small country. How Russia saw this as a reason to attack another nation is far beyond my ability to comprehend without more information that you are reluctant to provide.

Just as the U.S invaded in Grenada and Panama in the name of protecting their citizens and national interest, so too did Russia do the same.

Once again you are comparing apples and oranges. Our citizens were being held by hostile forces of the Cuban army in Grenada.

I don’t recall any hostile forces holding the Russian citizens, they were free to return to Russia when they received citizenship.

On a side note you still have not produced which American official gave the orders to attack the civilians as you stated in your first reply that I challenged.

This is an excerpt from Gorbachev, that crazy war-mongering communist that pursued nuclear disarmament and peretroika!

Yes, he pursued disarmament only after we came up with SDI until then he was happy to spread nuclear weapons far and wide. He came up the Perestroika only after the discontent in the nation was so high that he feared being overthrown. Surprise he was twice. Now he is towing the party line like a good communist because it is his country and he is supporting his countries actions.

Once again you are taking what they say at face value even though they have proven to be untrustworthy.

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