Hi Charles, sorry your having such an experience in your marriage. I'll give you my two cents, since you're written about it.

One from my own personal point of view and experience, as the wife in a marriage having experienced the unwittingly neglect of my husband (he didn't realize he was being neglectful, a couple of years ago. I didn't realize it was happening because being busy with kids, and going to school, and work and other stuff, you begin to notice the times hubby would rather spend with his friends, hanging out than with me, the times that I wanted to do things go places, that he has no interests in. I started to go with my friends, or the kids and just forget about him. But wanting to save my marriage, I had had enough, and I took a stand and we were able to make it work again. There have been some trying times in between, but we sticked it out, most important of all is because we communicate. We might yell at each other in the process, but we make it be known what we want and what we expect and most important, we say I'm sorry if either hurt the other.

From my brother's point of view, he is in the same situation you have found yourself in. They are both Christians (at least I can't vouch for her anymore) and he found out by accident what we all knew already, that she was cheating on him. I can't say and I'm not saying your wife is doing the same. However, my brother's wife became emotionally uninvolved in him, their children and their marriage. She totally ignored him, no matter what he has tried to do to save the marriage, she has no interest in him or the marriage. He has accepted that he can do nothing, their pastor can do nothing, and unfortunately, no one else.

You can try to save your marriage, as you love her still, make the effort to woo her again, start small, and just do stuff together, one thing at a time. It doesn't mean you have to spend a lot of money, just start doing small things for her, help around the house, plan quality time together, do something different in bed (hey, sometimes you guys are in your own little world and forget the woman is there), bring her something she likes, take her to something she likes, most importantly, talk to her, with love and patience and see what happens. Also, get the professional help, whether by your pastor, or that pastor at the new church, or even a marriage counselor, as you plan to do.

If after all your efforts, she has not changed, or doesn't show an inclination of wanting to 'kiss and make good' then there's nothing you can do.

Once the woman has made up her mind, that is it, you have to call it a day. There is just no way that I would out of respect for my hubby (and I've met a few guys in my lifetime) take another man's phone number and be on the phone with him for hours, right there at home! No way!

I looked in a mirror - and saw this entry by CharlesCS.

Having been in your computer chair, I pretty much concur with TW and Jythier.  Some people call it "growing apart", but it's more correct to call it "continuing bad habits".  Short answer:  counseling.  If you're willing to do what it takes, then that's what it takes.  And be ready to have some self-image battering, 'cause you're definitely exacerbating the situation but you don't want to see/admit it (Lord knows, I didn't!). 

Flashback:  2004.  Almost every evening found me in front of the PC.  Gaming, surfing, whatever.  Wife was doing household stuff or watching TV back in the bedroom.  I taught at the time and had a horrid schedule:  8am - 12pm & 6pm-10pm daily, most Fridays off.  I was also the lead tech for the school's systems, senior tech instructor and network admin.  By the time Friday rolled around, the LAST thing I felt like doing was dealing with people!  So I played on the 'puter.  After a while, Wife stopped asking me to go anywhere or do anything because she got tired of hearing, "I'm too tired, baby - maybe next time" or "I'm kinda stressed, now it not a good time!" or worse, "In a minute, honey!" ('cause a computer minute is like, 2 hours). 

Eventually I noticed that she was doing things without me - it seemed she was shutting me out of her life.  So I pointed out to her that she was excluding me from seemingly everything.  Of course, in my "pointing it out" it was made clear that SHE was shutting ME out and this behavior needed to stop.  My computer time, tiredness, etc. had nothing to do with it - I was the victim.  She....ahem!...disagreed.  Vigorously.  Loudly.  Vociferously, even.   Recognizing that there was just no dealing with her in her current state, I gave up and went back to the computer. 

Rinse, repeat.  I always had a perfectly good reason for not interacting with her at that moment,  she got tired of being denied my wondermous prescence and managed without me, I got upset at not being included, we argued.  Groundhog Day for about 6 years.

Oh, we didn't always argue.  We did eke out some good times.  And the sex (when it happened) was pretty good but there was an underlying feeling of it being more a case of "because I"m his wife and that's what I'm supposed to do" than a case of "Take me!  Take me now!".   All our interactions had fallen into this sort of routine; everything seemed to be happening because we were dutiful spouses and parents,  not because we wanted to. 

Just as in the old joke about the farmer and the mule, it took a 2x4 across the head to make me see the light (I prefer my metaphors shaken, not stirred).  This particular 2x4 was an IM log I'd chanced across while cleaning Windows cruft from her laptop.  Yeah, I was nosy.  Damned good thing, too!  It was a conversation between her and a guy friend that I knew pretty well.  She was explaining to him her feelings towards me (I would have loved to have seen the preceeding exchanges of text but they were garbled.  The critical part, however, was perfect).

Not having time to read it all just then, I sent it to the printer and picked it up on the way out the door to work.  Traffic was reasonable for a change and I had a few minutes before class started so I pulled the printout from my bag and commenced reading.  Then read it again.  Several times.  In a nutshell, she felt I'd been pulling away from her for years.  She even detailed for him WHY I was doing so - incidents from my life before her (including things that happened between my first two wives and I).  My first thought was "What is she talking about?".  Second:  "She's nuts!"  Third:  "I'm not doing that! (Am I?)".  Fourth:  "Uhhhhhhh...."   Fifth:  "OH FECAL MATTER!!"

As it happened, she had taken the day off.  I told the boss I wasn't feeling well and left.  Ya know, it really IS hard to drive with tears in your eyes!  I got home, told my very worried-at-my-state Wife that I'd had an epiphany, poured about 3 fingers of scotch, drank same, repeated, then sat down with her.  I cried.  I groveled.  I apologized.  I abjured myself.  I abased myself.  I cried.  And she....she forgave.

12 years of marriage had passed with me thinking the world was rosy while she grew more and more unhappy.  I didn't see that I was adding bricks to the wall between us; certainly I didn't intend to!  After awhile, she got tired of trying to break the wall down because I was a better builder than she was a breaker.  She 'cared for me, would protect me, defend me, take care of me, stand by me.  But she didn't love me'.  She had tried for years to '"give him my love but he didn't seem to want it anymore.  So it just kind of died away." 

I couldn't see the truth until I saw her side of things.  When we'd tried to talk about relationship issues, I was hearing her through the filter of past wives and past lives.  My mulish-ness drove her to emotionally closing herself off from me.  Her sense of duty, the kids, the marriage vow she intended to keep all prevented her from leaving me but she wasn't happy.  Mea Culpa.

I've never told her about seeing that IM.  I just told her that a light had dawned; a realization hit.  It's true, I just haven't explained what the catalyst for my mental metamorphasis was.  So here we are, four years later, still together and much, much happier.  Once we both understood how our actions and words were impacting the other person, we were able to find compromise and common ground.  Fortunately, I stayed awake in my psych classes and was able to understand the dynamics of the relationship once my rectal-cranial inversion had been....er,...'rectified'.  But some counseling is an option always on our table should we think we need it.

YOU, CharlesCS, need it.  You and your wife need a counselor.  You need a referee, a mediator, a advisor.  Because you are right.  And she is right.  And you are wrong.  And she is wrong.  A professional counselor can help you understand how to deal with all of those scenarios.  Humans are like living Heisenberg Uncertainty Principles - we can't fully understand the situation because we're in it.  The outside observer - with no vested interest in either side - is needed to provide the guidance we need to gain understanding.  It's not an admission of failure, or fault, or of some defect in you.  Seeing a counselor is nothing more than being intelligent enough to realize that the relationship between two people is dynamic and complex and that sometimes, you just gotta call in the pros.  Do you think poorly of your callers when they have a real, complicated problem?  Or are you glad they called the expert when they needed to instead of trying to fix it themselves and completely trashing the system?

Several things you've typed, and the defensiveness in some of your responses, are EXACTLY what I would have said/done before I read that IM log.  'I have met the enemy, and [sometimes] he is me!'.  Reading your post was like waltzing down Deja Vu Lane.  You said that the wife was willing to get counseling and you said that you were willing to get counseling.  So put down the remote, skip the frag-fest and GO.SEE.A.COUNSELOR.  Don't try to tough it out or fix it yourself.  The situation is bad but not quite yet ready for lawyerly interventions.  When you're really sick, you see a doctor because they're the experts.   Your marriage is really, really sick, Charles.  Go see the marriage doctor before it needs a hearse and not an ambulance.

 

Thank you for all the comments greywar, TW, Jythier, forever and especially AnonTech.

There is so much truth to what you all say and I am now compelled to make another article to explain some more details of my relationship with the mother of my children for the past 11 years. Chances are once read, many will believe that I am still fighting a battle I have already lost several times over and probably just consider me pigheaded. And chances are you may be right. I will say more in that article.Thank you.

We already do, Charles. We already do.

Lovingly, of course.

Been hanging around with LW lately haven't you? LOL

Who cares whose blood is behind them if he is raising them? He's the father.

If the relationship can't be saved from the abuse, then yeah, you have to stop it for the kid's sake. But if the relationship can be turned around, your kids will see not only the right way to treat their future spouse, but also that a relationship can be turned around if both parties are willing to make it work, and work to make it.

exactly, it's not about one or the other. It's not always just about remaining in an unhappy marriage or leaving. There are other avenues to go down. Like I've said I've seen some pretty miserable marriages take off and do very well with some help and guidance along the way. The kids are the benefactors as well as the parents. A miserable marriage doesn't have to stay that way and leaving isn't the only option.

It's ok for the kids to see fighting and conflict resolution. I've seen some that never saw this and had miserable marriages because they didn't have the skills to "fight" effectively.

Well, had not realized how far this had gone.

LW,

I understand your point and you are correct in some of these things. But you are mixing stories here a bit and I have to make sure this is corrected. My wife did not go around meeting men and having sex with them. The guys that were involved in these situations were guys she knew before me, dated them before me and even I knew some of them. I had never seen her give her number away to a stranger before, considering she was not hiding her calls from me and she knows I can find anything on her phone and she pretty much has everything open to my disposal, I don't believe this is something she does with frequency. Yes, she did wrong when she was talking to this one guy, but I'm not about to brand her as some kind of whore having sex with every stranger she meets, that's basically what i got from your comments. She did really stupid things years ago and some recent ones not as bad as those before. But she is not having happy hours on a daily basis either. She spends more time at home than most women I know, she rarely leaves me and the kids alone and when she does she usually wants us to go with her or she is going to a family's house.

I have access to all her email, her websites, even her computer, all given by her to me. I know most of her friends, she usually talks on the phone around me and does not like going out alone without us. I just wanted to make that clear to everyone, we are not talking about a person who has had sex with 100 guys in a month, we are talking about someone who made a few mistakes in the past and as far as I know has never done it again. She doesn't think she did anything wrong with talking to this person but now she agrees it was wrong. that to me is an improvement.



I never had and would never do that because regardless they are my kids and could never do anything to change that. But I am 100% sure they are mine because apart from both looking identical to me, having so many of my habits and characteristics, these events did not happen during the time she was pregnant or got pregnant.



This can be true, but I am one of those who was not affected by the problems in our household. I actually did everything within my power to be nothing like my father, even though I share his looks, his attitude and in part his mentality. I am, however, opposite of him in almost every way. Hell, I am even really bad with money while he is very good at making and saving money.



I don't take your words to much at heart anymore because I am use to your straight forward honesty and your need to make something bad sound 10 times worse than it really is. I believe I live in an average house where the parents are both working, very busy and don't often have time to be a family. I have never argued with my wife and we don't discuss our problems in front of the kids. I am sure they are smart enough to know we have issues, but I don't believe they see a sad couple, struggling to stay together having to jump over Grand Canyon size obstacles while trying to provide a family environment to them. Probably the one thing my kids may be aware of is that daddy is really bad at managing money (but have improved) and that mommy likes myspace.com a lot. But while my kids may not get 100% attention from their dad because he's an idiot, they know we love them and will do anything for them.

Maybe think about this sentence a bit, Charles.

Believe me I do. If it was as easy as my wife staying home, it would be done. We don't get home till after 6 where we have to cook, get the kids in the shower and do our daily chores before we can even sit an watch some TV, play some games with the kids or stroll around the internet. Before we know it, the kids gotta go to sleep. And this is while I don't have a part time yet. Soon enough I will have no time what so ever except on the weekends. You all think I don't care, that I don't try but you are all sadly mistaken. I have not had luck when it comes to staying above my financial duties, I can only accomplish so much at this point in time, but I am working hard on improving things but that does not happen overnight either.