Why abortion is and should remain legal

Excellent, Sandy, you're becoming one of my favorite bloggers to read! I am very pro-choice. Have an *insightful* from me

Why abortion is and should remain legal By: sandy2 Posted: Tuesday, October 19, 2004 on Independent Left leaning Rants and Raves Message Board: Politics When is something a living thing of its own? Are your skin cells living things? And sperm? What about the bacteria inside your body? Are these living things? I believe that a baby is part of a Woman, until a certain point, which I haven't really decided. At the earliest, it is when the baby could sustain life outside of the mother. At the latest, it is when the baby is born. Under this thinking, "killing" the baby, which is more really terminating the baby, is equivilent to cutting off a finger or an ear or a toe. And people give me the argument that "oh, but the baby could be adopted and not terminated if the mother isn't ready". Yes, it could. There are more people looking for babies to adopt than there are babies available. This applies to white, healthy babies. What about non-healthy babies? They should be put into foster homes? They don't count? The fact is adoption is not a posibility to non "perfect" babies. A woman has the right to end the life of a part of her body. And then I get the religious argument. This is what I have to say to that: Religions prohibited birth control. Do you not use birth control? Relgion prohibited over eating (it's one of the 7 deadly sins), does that mean there aren't fat people? Religion says there shall be no greed. Does that mean that we are not all greedy? Relgion says thou shall not lie. Do we not lie every day?

I have a problem with this. Ever hear of contraceptives or abstainence? And the Biggest one is partial-birth abotions. People that pull this one should themselves be terminated! Just so you'll understand what I'm talking about.

Medical Dictionary One entry found for partial-birth abortion. Main Entry: par·tial-birth abortion Pronunciation: 'pär-sh&l- Function: noun : an abortion in the second or third trimester of pregnancy in which the death of the fetus is induced after it has passed partway through the birth canal

How about putting it this way.

Everybody has rights and this issue has even split the Libertarian Party (one half says the woman has her individual rights, other half says the baby is an individual and has rights as well).

Though this is the way it should be handled for all parties concerned.

1. Cut Federal Government Funding to Abortion, half the US is against Abortion so is it right to tax that half and pay for Abortions?
2. Keep it Legal to prevent Back Alley Abortions
3. Keep Harvesting Embryonic Stem Cells from Aborted Fetuses Illegal because we don't need a black market where stuff like that is very valuable.
4. It is the right and obligation of the pregnant woman, not the state, to decide the desirability or appropriateness of prenatal testing, Caesarean births, fetal surgery, voluntary surrogacy arrangements and/or home births.
5. Leave the Parental Notification decision up to the State, the only time the Federal Government needs to step in is when it is a Unconstitutional Law.

Somebody can add more I need to take care of my dog.

- Grim X

GrimX,

you left out one thing that I would have to say is pretty important...
Establish a hard cutoff past which an abortion cannot be performed, e.g. Week 13 or 20. (I would say 13 is better; that's 3 months to figure out you're pregnant and decide what to do about it, while the fetus is still small enough to be unarguably non-viable.)

No, I'm against parental notification. Look, sometimes people screw up, okay? And there are parents that will kick these girls out for getting pregnant, and other parents that would kick them out if they wanted an abortion. We can talk all day long about how these girls need to face up to their mistakes -- fine. But I've had cases in our school where the girl has been pregnant by a relative (uncle, step-father, father) or close family friend and parental notification would cause a lot of trouble for the girl and the family -- and most of these girls would just like to have their abortion and get it over with. In a perfect world, it wouldn't be this way, but this isn't a perfect world, and I want "my girls" (my students) to get by the best they can.

At the earliest, it is when the baby could sustain life outside of the mother.

So you think that post-natal abortions should be allowed, right? Because a newborn infant certainly cannot "sustain life outside of the mother". Their life is sustained 100% by their caretakers in a way that no one who has never had children can understand. Or do you just mean old enough that they can survive with just normal feeding, etc? Because then you must support abortion up to around 32-33 weeks at least. Very likely even later, right? Because even though a 30 week fetus can survive, it can only do so with pretty serious intervention (eg. ventilator support, OG tube feeds, etc.). Or are you going to go with the commonly accepted 25 weeks (as that is currently the youngest we can keep fetuses alive these days--much younger than not that many years ago)? Because that is what some bureaucrat has said that is the age when they don't really look enough like babies that we feel comfortable ending their life. Sounds like a good way to measure it to me. As long as we can all sleep at night since, you know, they look funny enough and don't really do a whole lot before 25 weeks so we don't mind killing them then. Right.

(I would say 13 is better; that's 3 months to figure out you're pregnant and decide what to do about it

Considering that a significant number of woman (especially those with irregular cycles) could be 13 weeks pregnant and not still know that, are you still comfortable with that? And the 3 months figure is pretty off too. Normal, perfectly regular 28 day cycle woman usually don't know for sure they are pregnant until they are at the very least 3 weeks along, more likely 4. Just food for thought.

And as this is getting longer I will just through one more tidbit out:

which is more really terminating the baby, is equivalent to cutting off a finger or an ear or a toe

That is quite possibly one of the most ignorant things I have ever read. And what I find even more humorous is this. Do you really think any sane woman who has no problem having an abortion would go and willingly have someone cut off a finger, toe or ear? Since I think we can agree right from the start that, no, there aren't women lining up to have their fingers, toes, etc. cut off, we could then safely say you value the life of the fetus as less than that of a toe. Glad you hold life in such high regard.

What happens if the child cannot survive without machinery once outside the mother? Does the owner of the machinery (i.e. the hospital) then have control over whether or not the child lives? After all, since it can't survive without it, it's now of the machine and not its own being.

Relgion prohibited over eating (it's one of the 7 deadly sins), does that mean there aren't fat people? Religion says there shall be no greed. Does that mean that we are not all greedy? Relgion says thou shall not lie. Do we not lie every day?

Are you comparing killing a child to overeating? With that logic, one might say that I could murder pregnant women. After all, the Bible tells people not to lie, yet people do, so they would be hypocritical to judge me.

What happens if the child cannot survive without machinery once outside the mother? Does the owner of the machinery (i.e. the hospital) then have control over whether or not the child lives? After all, since it can't survive without it, it's now of the machine and not its own being.

Interesting point.

I don't believe in abortion at all. However in our society people will get what they want and if they want an abortion they will get it, just like Pot is illeagle but If I want some I won't have to work very hard to get some.

Government funding should be stoped. If some one wants to fund it let it be the pro-choice activist.

One other thing, What about tubal pregnancies? My wife has had two of these. You could say that the doctor killed my kids. However there is no medical way to save the baby and the mother at this point. According to the doctor if someone refuses the surgery to remove the bably from the tube, the chances of the mother living through it are 50/50 and the baby's chances are pretty much Zero.

So I ask you where does this lie in your argument?

No, I'm against parental notification. Look, sometimes people screw up, okay?

So, to be a legal adult and citizen you must be 18 until than you are property of your parents are you not? Unless you want to give rights to people under 18 by all means initiate the legislation though if you do that you won't mind if someone legalizes Child Pornography, etc. because they have rights while under 18 years of age so surely they can make their own decisions, right? Even if it means Porn, Drugs, and ROCK n' ROLL!!

Still say it is a community and state issue not a Federal Issue. We need less Federal Government interfering in people's lives because they are out of touch with each state's specific thinking and logic. That and since when did the Supreme Court get the power to re-write laws instead of just interpreting and deeming a law unconstitutional?

"Jett Love, I love you baby!!"
- Grimtar Xolf

I agree funding is a legitimate issue for debate. And I agree that it would be perfectly appropriate for the government to stay out of funding abortions. They should remain legal and available, but there is no overriding benefit to society in federal or state funding, whereas there is a benefit to society in providing assistance to borne children.

There is a similar situation with funding embryonic stem cell research. There is no prohibition of such research, just no federal dollars for it & I'm OK with that.

Cheers,
Daiwa

Grimmy, if it's a case of a girl getting that abortion or becoming homeless, I say screw parental notification.

I believe that a baby is part of a Woman, until a certain point

Yes, that is what you believe.  Are you a mother?  I would bet not.  I believed a lot of different things before I not only grew a person in my body but also had two miscarriages.  I am pro-choice but I am against partial birth abortion. 

I know people who were born at 27 weeks.  I know what my children looked like and felt like at 16 weeks (sonograms).  I don't neccessarily believe that life begins at conception because I am not a religious person but I have plenty of respect for those that do and I can't prove them wrong.

I totally agree with Daiwa's comment.

Grimmy, if it's a case of a girl getting that abortion or becoming homeless, I say screw parental notification.

Myr, I respect your point, but as a teacher you must know that kids don't exactly think clearly (especially the ones that are most likely to become pregnant teens).  A lot of teens would think their parents would kill them or disown them when in fact they wouldn't.  What if notification allowed the parents to give the teen choices they wouldn't have thought of which would result in sparing the life of the baby?  Isn't that worth a try?  I can't bare the thought of a child of mine going through something like that without my knowledge and I'm not arrogant enough to say that my child would certainly tell me what was going on on their own.  Parental notification can also save the life of the young mother.  I have been privy to some teens having very severe complications following abortions and they either died or came close because they wouldn't tell their family what was going on.

It's possible. But what about in an incest case? Should a girl tell the father/step father that raped her she's gonna get an abortion?

Grimmy, if it's a case of a girl getting that abortion or becoming homeless, I say screw parental notification.

True, and so would I but is every case that way? How many cases are that way?

No, not every case -- and I think you make a very valid argument. But I've known of 3 cases in my career that have been like that.

But what about in an incest case? Should a girl tell the father/step father that raped her she's gonna get an abortion?

Ever heard of Social Services?

How about working with the parents, the daughter, and social services as a mediator?

*laugh*

Your faith in the government is astounding.

Your faith in the government is astounding.

No, how about Family Services that is run by non-profit organizations?

There are many organizations that can come in, Government runned ones are not the only ones.

Perhaps in urban areas. My experience is all in very rural areas, so the only social services we have is state-run. But thanks for clarifying what you meant!

i'm all for letting people make up their own minds instead of letting the government make it for them.

i'm all for letting people make up their own minds

I'm not for letting teens make up their own minds.  I was one of the most level headed, responsible teens you would ever meet but I still did some really stupid things.  You aren't considered an adult until age 18 for many reasons.

It's possible. But what about in an incest case? Should a girl tell the father/step father that raped her she's gonna get an abortion?

No, she should tell the police.

>Are you comparing killing a child to overeating?

I didn't say it, but no, that was a really srange conclusion to draw. Read more carefully. S/he was simply saying that the Bible tells us a lot of things, but that doesn't make them part of Law, it makes them part of our own ethical frameworks. As I have stated on my own blog, I am uncomfortable with abortion, but I understand that there are significant differences between people on whether abortion is murder or not and these are not unreasonable differences.

>but there is no overriding benefit to society in federal or state funding,

Not true. Making abortion hard to get at creates a lot of societal problems, such as mothers who don't want those children becoming abusive or neglectful, such as women who want an abortion but can't afford it being forced into debt, causing further crime. The list goes on.

>half the US is against Abortion so is it right to tax that half and pay for Abortions?

Put simply, yes. I am opposed to much more than half the things my Government funds but I live in a democratic society with a democratically elected Government and so I pay taxes.

>Yes, that is what you believe. Are you a mother? I would bet not. I believed a lot of different things before I not only grew a person in >my body but also had two miscarriages.

Well clearly the many women who have carried foetuses and then aborted them disagree with you, so it is not dependant on this factor at all.

>I'm not for letting teens make up their own minds. I was one of the most level headed, responsible teens you would ever meet but I >still did some really stupid things.

I'm one of the most level-headed adults but I still do some really stupid things. I agree. No one should be allowed to make up their own minds.