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Liberty, Individual Rights and the TRUE American Way

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Liberty, Individual Rights and the TRUE American Way

Includes links to some good Philosophical views on Government and Helping the poor

from JoeUser Forums
Liberty, what means this liberty? What is the definition of liberty?

Webster defines it as:
Link to Webster Definition
    Main Entry: lib·er·ty
    Pronunciation: 'li-b&r-tE
    Function: noun
    Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
    Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French liberté, from Latin libertat-, libertas, from liber free -- more at LIBERAL
    1 : the quality or state of being free: a : the power to do as one pleases b : freedom from physical restraint c : freedom from arbitrary or despotic
        control d : the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges e : the power of choice
    synonym see FREEDOM

So what does this mean to you and to me?

    It means you and I should possess the freedom of choice to do whatever we want in our own lives even IF it includes harming ourselves. Though this does not mean that we should harm others because if we did that we would be encroaching on someone else's liberty. That you and I share rights that are even protected by the Government (or is it?). Should I support your way of choice even when I don't agree with it? No, but an a case against this is Abortion (Government Funds Abortion!), Corporate Welfare (pays for Corporations to advertise overseas), welfare (though I think we can do better than just doling out money to those in need), and several other issues. Why is Government this way? Who gave them the power? Which Major Political Party is responsible?
    Government has gotten this way by supporting the ideas and political agendas that people should depend on the Government for everything, from what they eat, to how they spend their money, etc. As for who gave them the power look no further than you and I, we gave them the power by voting in politicians who want to keep us under control and dependent on government. Which political party is responsible, some would say Democrats, others would say Republicans, I would say it takes two to tango and both are equally responsible for this.

So why should I listen to you, Grim X?

    Don't! You should not listen to me or anybody on how to make your own choices. Do you really need a Paternal Government caring for your life? Did you not decide to get through life on your own?
    Instead of having a Mommy or Daddy Government caring for you instead live your own life! The Government caring and taking care of you telling you how to live your life is like me telling you what to do, but yet you like the Government for being a parent. What is the difference? Nothing that is what!

Individual Rights and the TRUE American Way

    With Liberty intact we can achieve the TRUE American Way but two major political parties and several third parties don't want that, instead they want bigger government that means more taxes to pay for the more spending done by the larger government.  That is not the American Way, because the bigger government leads to more regulations over each individual's life limiting their liberty to what the government decides. So if you need a mommy or daddy government to tell you how to wipe your ass and clean your nose, than by all means get out of America NOW!!
    Those who have died fighting, have fought for or are still fighting for American Liberty do it because they don't need a Mommy/Daddy telling them how to run their lives, they do it so they have the Freedom to do whatever they want with THEIR OWN LIVES! Are they wrong for doing this? Hell no, they are never wrong for doing this those who are against it are the ones who are wrong and should leave this country NOW!!
    America was founded on the principle of Liberty and every soldier/citizen who has fought for or died for that cause do it because they fight for Liberty but yet we have two Major Political Parties and several Third Parties that spit on their sacrifice by taking away the Liberty of these individuals. That is never right no matter how you try to justify it, whether it be from the Liberals or Conservatives it is never right and always wrong PERIOD!

If we do not take action now expect your and my liberties to be curtailed for further control and dependence on the Government!!

    So far the only Political Party that I have looked at that supports this view on Liberty wholeheartedly is NOT the Democrats, Republicans, Green, Socialist, but the Libertarian Party!!  To side with other parties don't support the view of Liberty first and Government second is to say you don't like Liberty, right?

I can understand a difference in opinion and some officials in a Party don't represent their whole party, case in point Kerry and Bush.

For those of you who love/support Kerry: Tell me how or what Kerry is doing to protect the cause of Liberty!! Don't tell me anything about how Bush is going against Liberty, only tell me about Kerry.

For those of you who love/support Bush: Tell me how or what Bush is doing to protect the cause of Liberty!! Don't tell me anything about how Kerry is going against Liberty, only tell me about Bush.

I dare you to respond or are you a chicken? Or do you not know how your candidate is defending the cause of Liberty?

Sincerely,
Erik D. Stebbins, Former SPC in the United States Army Active Duty (Nov 2001-Feb 2004) and Defender of Liberty
JU nickname: Grim Xiozan

 

Some Good Philosophical Essays:


Lifeboat Ethics: the Case Against Helping the Poor by Garrett Hardin, Psychology Today, September 1974 - Link to Essay by Hardin [LINK]
I recommend Hardin's essay be read because Hardin does bring up valid points. 

Ayn Rand Institute Site [LINK] - This section in particular deals with individual rights and is very well done with sound philosophical and logical reasoning.


P.S. If I don't respond that fast my 16 year old dog fell down the stairs yesterday and she dislocated her leg, the Doctors put her under and got the leg back in place but she still is in pain and her back legs are hobbled, she is alright and doing fine just needs time to heal and I need to take care of her from time to time.

politics
15,766 views 40 replies
Reply #26 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply #25 By: Abe Cubbage - 10/18/2004 12:22:00 AM
So far you have only given the reason that you dislike Bush as a reason to support Kerry but not a single reason to support Kerry.


I don't "support" Kerry, I am voting for him. I don't doubt for a second that you understand the distinction.

In regards to property rights I am against the whole concept of land ownersh


Two uestions
1 Do you own a house?
2 Do you live in the USA?
Reply #27 from JoeUser Forums Top
"[Liberty] means you and I should possess the freedom of choice to do whatever we want in our own lives even IF it includes harming ourselves."

Perhaps liberty is defined that way in the context of a dictionary, but it is not what it means within the context of our Constitution or our democratic republic. Liberty or Freedom within the latter context means that your right to do whatever you want stops when it infringes on the rights of someone else or harms someone else.

As for your score card of doing something to protect liberty...

Kerry fought in Vietnam...he voluteered to do it. Whether or not you think he deserved his medals and blah, blah, blah is besides the point. Anyone who puts on the uniform and goes into battle for our country did so with the intention of defending liberty. Secondly, the fact that he spoke out after the war and criticized it was also an exercize of defending liberty...the right to free speech, the right to an express a political opinion, the right to criticize your government when you think it is doing something wrong...regardless of whether you agree with that opinion (or how it was presented) is also a form of defending liberty.
Galactic Civilizations IV
Reply #28 from JoeUser Forums Top
How about this:

"America will welcome a dictator with open arms if liberty is not their main concern" - Erik Stebbins 18 Oct. 2004 delivered in a reply on JU

Perhaps liberty is defined that way in the context of a dictionary, but it is not what it means within the context of our Constitution or our democratic republic. Liberty or Freedom within the latter context means that your right to do whatever you want stops when it infringes on the rights of someone else or harms someone else.


Um, you do know you just rewrote what I stated in your own words, harming ourselves DOES NOT MEAN harming others or was there something lost in the translation?

Okay I will count Kerry's Vietnam service as two points (military service will count as two all others will only count as one) and I will not complain on the particulars of that service.

So updated score is Bush 6 - Kerry 3 (if you count Sandy's point).

Okay I will even make it easier for everybody, how about this you can now say points that detract from your opponent's side of protecting liberty. I.E. They did this that in turns defeats their protection of Liberty.

Now we should see something good or not? Depends on how you all convey your reasoning. I will detract one point for each valid reason that goes against that person protecting Liberty.

Also tell me how it detracts from the protection of Liberty not just name off things. You can keep it short and simple if you desire or whatever.

Cause this is my United States of...WHATEVER!! (Sorry got that punk song stuck in my head, anybody know which group sang it and what the song is called?)

- Xplosively Grimlicious
Reply #29 from JoeUser Forums Top

I don't see how you can use the fact that Kerry spent 4 months in Vietnam as a way of "defending" liberty -- especially as 2 points.

I dont' care what Kerry did in Vietnam. What will Kerry do, as President, to protect or promote liberty?

Reply #30 from PolMach Forums Top
Oh I just made it two points for military service (hint: Former Army from long line of Army here), was he only in for four months, if so I would count that as one or less depending on the reasoning.
Reply #31 from PolMach Forums Top
Kerry served two tours of duty in Vietnam.

December 1967 to June 1968, he served aboard a missile frigate, the USS Gridley, in the electrical department. This deployment was risk free, as Kerry himself even admitted, stating, "I didn't have any real feel for what the heck was going on [in the war]."

After spending five months back in the US, Kerry was again deployed to Vietnam. Kerry elected to be a swift boat captain, choosing to continue his part in the war at a healthy distance. When Kerry signed up for the swift boats, they were only involved in coastal patrolling, and considered safe. Two weeks after being assigned to the boats, the swift boat mission changed, moving into the rivers and deltas to patrol the waterways, draw fire, and scout for enemy positions.

The second tour began at the end of December 1968, and lasted for months until the beginning of April, 1969. At this point, Kerry used the "three wound rule" to win a reassignment outside of Vietnam.

Link here:




Link
Reply #32 from PolMach Forums Top
Okay so he served more than four months outside time spent in training.
Two points for Military service unless you all want to debate that, which means Bush also gets two points for military service to be fair NG still counts as military service.

Bush 8 - Kerry 3 (give or take one)

- Grimmeister
Reply #33 from JoeUser Forums Top
Bush took away our liberty with the patriot act-- minus 1 point for him.
Reply #34 from PolMach Forums Top
Okay, Bush 7 - Kerry 3.
Reply #35 from JoeUser Forums Top
Bush took away our liberty with the patriot act-- minus 1 point for him.


Kerry voted for the Patriot Act. Kerry also wishes to raise taxes. More taxes = more government = less freedom.
Reply #36 from JoeUser Forums Top

Kerry voted for the Patriot Act. Kerry also wishes to raise taxes. More taxes = more government = less freedom.


Would you like me to create an article stating all the bad things Bush has done?
Reply #37 from JoeUser Forums Top
Would you like me to create an article stating all the bad things Bush has done?


If you'd like. That doesn't change the fact that Kerry intends to raise taxes and did vote for the Patriot Act.
Reply #38 from PolMach Forums Top
Okay, Bush 7 - Kerry 1.
Reply #39 from PolMach Forums Top
Would you like me to create an article stating all the bad things Bush has done?


If you do that article include the reasons you are supporting 'the other guy' not just make it Bush Bashing Article number #999 on JU.

Cause if you only give reasons against a guy but no reasons to support 'the other guy' I find it annoying and post stuff against 'the other guy' to balance things out.

Remember 'always let your conscience be your guide!'
- Griminy Xricket
Reply #40 from JoeUser Forums Top

A littany of bitching is not a plan.