The Word on Creationism

The Word is "Lie"

What opponents of evolution (and other theories) don't understand is that science is not about finding the truth (that is best left to philosophy professors) but about finding out something useful about this world.

The predictions of theories can be used in engineering and other fields. Applications of the theory of evolution have been used successfully in such diverse fields as medicine and (yes) computer science. Evolution is solid, a tool that we can use to advance.


For a good article about the difference between a scientific theory and Creationism and the utter stupidity (and, I want to add, sacrilege) of believing in "Intelligent Design", see Steven Den Beste's essay about the human eye.

http://denbeste.nu/essays/humaneye.shtml

The vertebrate retina is a terrible design. The optic nerve comes into the eyeball at a certain point, and the nerve fibers spread out across the surface of the retina. Each individual nerve fiber reaches its assigned point, burrows down into the retina through several layers of epithelial cells, and ends with the light receptor itself pointing away from the lens of the eye, which is the direction from which the light must come. As a result, incoming light strikes the surface of the retina and must penetrate through multiple layers of inactive cells and then through the body of the nerve itself before it reaches the active point where it might be detected. This both diffuses and attenuates the light, decreasing the efficiency of the retina in accomplishing its function.

For a rationalist and atheist like Steven Den Beste, extrapolating from the existence of the human eye to a "designer" is illogical, because there is no evidence for design but plenty evidence for evolution.

For me, personally, saying that the human eye has been "designed" is blasphemy. I do not think it is all right to claim that G-d would intentionally create a faulty design or was incapable of doing better. (Plus I agree with Steven's thinking as well. There is evidence for evolution in the human eye, but no evidence for design.)


But the problem here is not the fact that some people are not capable of understanding complicated science and are thus forced to make up fairy tales that make them believe that they are as clever as scientists (and even cleverer since scientists don't "know" the truth), but the fact that those some people sometimes have the power to take away knowledge from the rest of us.

There are MANY countries in the world where Creationism is taught instead of evolution. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the majority of the world teaches Creationism to some extent, replacing biology or "adding to" biology in schools.

But what does that do for those societies?

Are they leaders in science based on learning something that is a "theory" just like evolution and a "better "explanation?

It's not enough to change the rules to allow Creationism (or "Intelligent Design") to become science, because what is science is not a decision made by man. It's ultimately a desicion made by nature (or G-d, if you will). Because science is something we can use to create.

When we look at the world and compare societies, we see that countries that teach evolution create technologies, whereas countries that teach Creationism, do not have the workforce to be leading in any field of technology.

Teaching Creationism causes stupidity. That's the problem.

And it doesn't help if "Christian" fundamentalists in the west blame Islam for it and pretend that teaching "Christian" Creationism will give better results, because the Creationism of Islam IS the Creationism of Christianity. It's word for word, letter for letter the same legend.

And it's phony. It's phony and stupid and a big lie.

    * Why does the birth canal run through the middle of the pelvis?
    * Why does the backbone run down one side of the trunk instead of through the middle where it would be more balanced?
    * Why does the ankle attach at one end of the foot instead of in the middle?
    * Why are there toes?
    * Why is it that nearly every part of the brain is as far as possible from the piece of the body with which it is associated?
          o Why is the motor control center for the right side of the body on the left side of the brain, and vice versa?
          o Why is the vision center at the rear of the brain, as far from the eyes as possible -- and on the opposite sides?
    * Why is it that fully 90% of the genetic material we carry around is useless?
    * Why do we share a single canal through the neck through which we both breath and swallow?

Biology has explanations for these oddities. Creationism does not. "It was G-d's will" is not an explanation, it's an excuse for incompetence.

(Why are some people born with a mechanism that destroys the beta cells in the pancreas, causing Type 1 Diabetes that is ALWAYS deadly within a few months without treatment? Would an "intelligent designer" design his subjects like that?)

Richard Dawkins called evolution the "blind watchmaker" because evolution does not "see" what it produces, it merely tries out what happens with the stuff it finds. I find the term "incompetent designer" appropriate for a god who designs things like us. And I cannot pray to an incompetent designer. How could I?

Teaching Creationism has never helped a society and is bringing down many.

 

Dear Creationists,

I do not want the western world to become a second "Islamic" world.

Do you not understand that?

 

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Reply #1 Top

Leauki,

Excellent article. On this particular topic I agree with you 100% Unfortunately you posted a quoted paragraph that contains the words "vertebrate retina" and "optic nerve" which will no doubt cause many eyes to glaze over (nothing wrong with the paragraph, it's our on-demand instant gratification culture that's to blame) Saying that God did it all is so much more easy and comfortable and leaves more room in our brains to watch American Idol, or read the Left Behind books!

I too agree that I do not want the western world to become a second "Islamic" world. Nor do I want it to be a "Christian" world or an any particular religion world for that matter. I propose the invention of a giant super-computer that will be vastly more intelligent than all of combined humanity that should tell us what to do (we can call it God if some folks choose, although imagine the firestorm of accused idol worship that would come of it!)

Reply #2 Top

science is not about finding the truth (that is best left to philosophy professors) but about finding out something useful about this world

Oh my,  look here....the first paragraph contains first lie....:LOL:

What science discovers is what is already existent by the will of Almighty God.

Take anesthetic...Scientists discovered it and that it greatly relieves suffering and pain..but they did not make or cause the power therein that produces unconsciousness or insensibility to pain, that belongs to the nature  God gave the thing discovered.

If science denied belief in God, then rest assured taht the world's greatest Christian scientists would never have professed their belief in and love of God.  Their discoveries sustain their belief in HIm as Creator of the universe and all that's in it.

 

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reply #3 Top
Leauki and Artysim

Your blind hatred for Christianity has taken you this far? You really blew it this time Leauki. You couldn't be more wrong and I'm going to prove it to you scientifically. Even those on your side in the scientific community disagree with your stance here. It's not about religion, it's about money and has always been about money. You said:

When we look at the world and compare societies, we see that countries that teach evolution create technologies, whereas countries that teach Creationism, do not have the workforce to be leading in any field of technology.

Teaching Creationism causes stupidity. That's the problem.


So does this make creation scientists stupid?

What about the members of the National Acadamies of Science that signed the "Dissent from Darwinism" clearly stating that they do not believe in Darwinian evolution? Stupid? You are only nominated and elected to the National Academies if you have contributed seminal work to your scientific field. So clearly,creationism is not correlated with stupidity.

Many great scientist have also been great creationists. To blame creationism for a country's inability to contribute to scientific advancement is ignorant.

Rather, a country's ability to perform novel scientific research is very correlated to the money it contributes (either by private or public means)towards furthering scientific studies. For example, America is a leader in scientific research, because the government makes it a priority to support the development of new technologies and therapies by research grants, etc. Mexico does not give much money in support of scientific research, and thus, they do not contribute much to scientific advancement. Thats because basic mathematics tells you that the more you invest, the more your return will be. There is more scientific research, or publication of results, in richer territories.

I can come to this "intelligent" conclusion, and I am a creationist. How about you? Moreover, my conclusion is supported by scientific literature, and your conclusion is not.

So which of us is being more scientific here?

According to Thomson-Scientific (the official record keeper of scientific journal data), the total number of papers published in all fields are ranked by country as the following:

United States 2,907,592
Japan 790,510
Germany 742,917
England 660,808
France 535,629
China 422,993
Canada 394,727
Italy 369,138
Spain 263,469
Australia 248,189
India 211,063
South Korea 180,329
Taiwan 124,940


So are you telling me Japan and China are Christian? Are you kidding? China is one of the biggest if not biggest persecutors of Christianity and has been for a long time. Does this look like a Christain who's who list to you?

This quote comes from PLoS Biology (a new major high quality scientific journal):

"It is rather obvious that richer countries are able to invest more resources in science and therefore account for the largest number of publications. It is also likely that there is a statistical bias on the part of the SCI as a bibliometric database, since it represents North American and European publications far better than those of the rest of the world"

1995
Reply #4 Top
Sorry about the links messup. Try this:

http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pbio.0020001&ct=1&SESSID=1010bf1fbbf5905e500eab28d8f4a505

Reply #5 Top

Your blind hatred for Christianity has taken you this far?

Tee hee!!

KFC, this may shock you but I'm a christian. I have no hatred towards christianity at all. I do believe the church has been deeply perverted by money, politics and a whole host of factors. Next I am assuming that you will tell me because of my stated beliefs there is no way I'm a 'real' christian. Let's cut all of that pointless rhetoric out right now and save everyone from another cyclical, semantic argument, and just say we're both christians who happen to disagree.

I believe the bible is a spiritual book. It is not a technical manual. It does not address the mechanism whereby we were created. Scientifically, there is absolutely no basis for stating that we were or were not created by an all-powerful being. This goes back to Leauki's earlier posting about the experiment to find out how smurf's get from one floor of the house to another.

Reply #6 Top

If science denied belief in God

I never said that science denied belief in G-d. Try to keep with the flow of things!

 

Reply #7 Top


So are you telling me Japan and China are Christian?

What???

KFC, have you lost it completely?

I didn't say anything about "Christian" and "non-Christian" countries. I spoke of countries that teach Creationism and countries that do not.

Your superstition has made you blind to the world.

I never hated Christianity. And if you weren't so blinded by your superstitious beliefs, you would have noticed that I often speak highly of Christian (Catholic) friends and that I NEVER called your superstitious beliefs _Christian_, I _always_ put the word in quotes, when I referred to to your beliefs. I never agreed with you that what you believe is representative of Christianity, and it is not very honest of you to pretend that I spoke about Christianity when I spoke about your beliefs, because you KNOW I never agreed with you on that.

I never ever referred to the Christian faith when I said "Christianity". I referred to what YOU and people like you call "Christianity", but which I have never accepted as the faith spawned by a religious Jew.

You will never see me put "Christianity" in quotes when I speak of the Pope or Lutheran ministers or Christian martyrs, up to and including newly converted Christians in Islamic countries who face persecution and sometimes death because of their (genuine) Christian beliefs. But if I see a superstitious fundamentalist who knows little about religion and studies "angels" instead of scripture and calls my G-d a "moon god" because she didn't bother to learn about Byzantinian symbols and just happens to believe what fellow "Christians" (note the quotes) tell her, I do confront her.

You see, KFC, I am a fundamentalist too, in a way. Like I would have said to Artysim, had I been able to post earlier today, in response to his remarks about idol worship, I have my beliefs too.
And you never cared about that. You insulted them, treated them as inferior, and dismissed everything I had to say because it wouldn't fit into your insane worldview.

You see, KFC, I care about my faith. I once quit my job to travel to Jerusalem. I studied Hebrew to understand scripture better. When Israel was under attack and many people cancelled their trips, I went there anyway. I donated time and money to help in the holy land. And guess what, I met Christians there who did the same.

And I have a problem, KFC, and you may call it religious intolerance, but I have a problem with people who, like you, study "angels", as if they were physical beings (despite all analysis of Biblical texts by Hebrew-speaking scholars disagreeing with that interpretation), because, as Maimonides warned, thinking that angels have physical form is dangerously close to believing that G-d has physical form.

I have a problem with idiots who do not know much about the G-d of the Jewish people and therefore dismiss Him as a "moon god" just because the descendants of Ishmael also pray to Him. You tried to show that Muhammed's Allah and your god are not the same god because Muhammed didn't speak of a Trinity. Well, guess what, neither did Moses. That's when I finally understood. You really had no idea. You didn't know, and you still don't know even after I explained it to you. I bet you never even looked up the word relatioships I told you about. You don't really care about what scripture says, do you?

And then you started your greatest project. Not only do you propose that religion should be taught in science class, DESPITE scripture telling us that we must not test G-d, but you accuse my G-d of designing us, designing us imperfect beings. We are created in the image of G-d, KFC, but that refers to our souls, not our bodies. Our bodies are NOT created in the image of G-d, because G-d doesn't have badly designed eyes. Look at me. Do you think G-d wears glasses? And G-d didn't design our eyes either, He is not responsible for disease and our weaknesses, He is NOT a designer of things in His universe. He is NOT the incompetent fool you are trying to convince everyone designed us. That's not how it worked.

My G-d, KFC, is not a sadistic being who "designs" women designed to risk death in childbirth because of an imperfectly planned birth canal. He is not an incompetent engineer who thought it would be a fun idea to design a friend of mine to develop Type 1 Diabetes (and don't dare to tell me that he is probably being punished for a sin or some such nonsense). He is not a flippy joker who loves most among His children those who refuse to study the world and believe that they already know everything they need to know.

I have listened to your superstitions and insults long enough, KFC. And now you tell me that I _hate_ Christianity, because I have a problem with YOU (not Christians, YOU) putting down other people's faiths, insulting all Muslims by calling their god (and mine) a "moon god", insinuating that Jews are incomplete in their faith because they rejected one out of thousands of Jerusalem preachers, treating Mormons as if you are somehow better than they, and lying about evidence for evolution? I am sick and tired of giving you example after example for everything you want to have never happened or think cannot be observed just to find you pretend that you never heard about all those things a day later when we meet again and discuss "Creation science" once more. And all that comes under that nice umbrella of the "Christian principle" of "honesty". Do you think you actually brought ANYONE here closer to the Christian faith?

So... that rant had to happen sooner or later.

I feel better now.

Know what I did on the weekend?

I wrote a program that transliterates Hebrew and Arabic to English and to each other.

You can find a description and screenshots here:

http://web.mac.com/ajbrehm/Not_A_Linguist/Not_A_Linguist_Blog/Entries/2008/6/15_Transliteration_Program.html

I often spend weekends studying Hebrew or, which I realise is not cool, the Bible.

But whenever I do, I find that I have become less superstitious and more open to the world.

Oh... and KFC... two points:

1. It doesn't matter how much money one pours into universities; if the students are Creationists the research results will be shit. Money is a multplicator. It makes better what already exists.

2. There is no such thing as a "Creation scientist".

Reply #8 Top

You couldn't be more wrong and I'm going to prove it to you scientifically.

Challenge accepted.

You may prove scientifically that "Creation science" works. You may use any god you like for whatever experiment you are going to present.

I waive the requirement that it has to be a Greaco-Roman or Semitic god.

Reply #9 Top
First of all you went on a big ramble totally not dealing with the orginal subject matter and totally misrepresenting me btw. Calling me a liar and skipping out on the conversation doesn't make you look credible. Let's stick to the subject matter first and not about stuff I've written about angels and Allah which has nothing to do with your original article.

You have a lot to say and have alot of ideas but cannot back up your ideas and instead tell me what you do which has nothing to do with your hypothesis. You are obviously not a scientist. You would not have said something so stupid if you were.

1. It doesn't matter how much money one pours into universities; if the students are Creationists the research results will be shit. Money is a multplicator. It makes better what already exists.

2. There is no such thing as a "Creation scientist".


My son is a Christian. He's also a Scientist. So what is he? You're wrong. The money invested in him from private funds as a Scientist has yielded high impact publication.

This is all about money and not about religion. Did you read the premier journal link I gave you? It's all right there. You're not wanting to believe this and you're making a correlation with 0 facts.

You made assumptions with NO facts. I gave you literature. I've given you solid scientific fact. Where are your facts? Don't just say things.

Now it's on you to show me the data to support your conclusion.

YOUR HYPOTHESIS IS:
countries that teach Creationism, do not have the workforce to be leading in any field of technology.


countries that DO NOT INVEST MONEY INTO SCIENTIFIC PROGRAMS, do not have the workforce to be leading in any field of technology.

We can't both be correct. Data you have provided in support of your hypothesis; NONE

Data that has been supported in my hypothesis is "It is rather obvious that richer countries are able to invest more resources in science and therefore account for the largest number of publications. It is also likely that there is a statistical bias on the part of the SCI as a bibliometric database, since it represents North American and European publications far better than those of the rest of the world" (Gibbs 1995; May 1997; Alonso & Fernandez-Juricic 2001; Vohora & Vohora 2001

Here's the full article:

http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pbio.0020001&ct=1&SESSID=1010bf1fbbf5905e500eab28d8f4a505


Clearly all the countries with the publications listed in my previous are comparatively more wealthy countries.

NOTE: A highly atheistic country is not on the list. According to your hypothesis this country should be on the top. Top countries that are athestic are

1. Sweden 85%
2. Vietnam 81%
3. Denmark 80%
4. Norway 72%

According to your hypothesis these four countries should be the most likely candidates for scientific output and should be teaching something other than creationism since the majority of their population is considered atheistic.

Conversely a country like the US with a 3-9% population of athesists should be one of the less likely to be on that original list I put forth and yet they are the leaders.

Not looking too good for your hypothesis.

This data here is from Zuckerman 2005.






Reply #10 Top
Science (from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") is the effort to discover, understand, or to understand better, how the physical world works, with observable physical evidence as the basis of that understanding. It is done through observation of existing phenomena, and/or through experimentation that tries to simulate phenomena under controlled conditions.

knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method b: such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena

systematized knowledge derived from observation, study, and experimentation carried on in order to determine the nature or principles of what is being studied
Reply #11 Top
What???
KFC, have you lost it completely?
I didn't say anything about "Christian" and "non-Christian" countries. I spoke of countries that teach Creationism and countries that do not.


You're right on this. I tried to edit this part of what I wrote and could not get back in to do so. So just skip that part because I totally did not answer you correctly on that point and just confused things .

Reply #12 Top
Smoothseas.

Ok so you defined science from a College Textbook so what does that have to do with Leauki's hypothesis?

Reply #13 Top
Know what I did on the weekend?
I wrote a program that transliterates Hebrew and Arabic to English and to each other.
You can find a description and screenshots here:


ok now your mostly unsubstantiated rant is over and you feel better. I have to say once again...your rant had NOTHING to do with the subject matter.

Maybe later after we discuss just this subject we can talk about what you did this weekend.

Because I do have a question for you about being a Jew.
Reply #14 Top
KFC, this may shock you but I'm a christian. I have no hatred towards christianity at all. I do believe the church has been deeply perverted by money, politics and a whole host of factors. Next I am assuming that you will tell me because of my stated beliefs there is no way I'm a 'real' christian. Let's cut all of that pointless rhetoric out right now and save everyone from another cyclical, semantic argument, and just say we're both christians who happen to disagree.


It does shock me. So are you telling me you follow Christ and his teachings?

I also agree with you on the condition of the church, but I also know that Christ died for his church (called out ones). And no I wouldn't call you a non-Christian based on just this statement.

One very important thing to historic Christianity and I'm talking all of the writings and messages from Christ himself and later the Apostles was unity. One way we would know fellow Christians was by the spirit. The spirit bears witness.

I believe the bible is a spiritual book. It is not a technical manual. It does not address the mechanism whereby we were created. Scientifically, there is absolutely no basis for stating that we were or were not created by an all-powerful being. This goes back to Leauki's earlier posting about the experiment to find out how smurf's get from one floor of the house to another.


I also believe the bible is a spiritual book. But what do you mean by that? It does address the creator and the creation created. No, we are not given technical details. Agree there. But we don't have details presented by the evolutionary theory either. No one wrote it down as it happened. We actually have more details from this Mosaic account than anything else the scientific community has shown.




Reply #15 Top

I never said that science denied belief in G-d.


and I never said you did say that...however, your entire article sure infers it. Your touting the theory of evolution which excludes Creator God, you promoted atheist Steven den Beste and his dumb idea that the retina proves evolution...




We are created in the image of G-d, KFC, but that refers to our souls, not our bodies.


I agree 100%.

And G-d didn't design our eyes either,


Yes, according to Genesis 1 and 2, He did. God designed our physical nature (our human bodies) as well as our spiritual nature (our eternal souls).

1:26, "And he said, "Let us make man to our image and likeness."

2:7, "And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul."


In v. 26, notice the word image and likeness? Man is the first among all God's creatures on earth becasue he was created in the image of God and is therefore like unto Him. This "likeness" though is twofold...a natural and a supernatural likeness unto God...meaning man has a spiritual soul which not only makes his body live, but it is immortal, reasonable and gifted with free will. By these we are like unto God, who is Eternal, whose Intelligence is Supreme, and Whose will is infinitely free.

Now, the body of man bears no likeness to God, for God has no body. But at the same time our body has high prerogatives...for it is the dwelling place and instrument of the immortal soul...It's more complete and better adapted to every kind of work than the bodies of animals. We raise our eyes to heaven for which man was created. OUr humanity is the masterpiece of God's visible Creation...I say visible becasue God also created invisible creatures called angels or spirits.

We are therefore to hold our body in honor and not pollute our soul by sin. "Glorify and bear God in your body." 1Cor.6:20.


You tried to show that Muhammed's Allah and your god are not the same god because Muhammed didn't speak of a Trinity. Well, guess what, neither did Moses.


Oh yes, Moses spoke of the Blessed Trinity right here in Genesis 1:26...

1:26, "[I]And he said, "Let us make man to our image and likeness."

Here, the words, "us" and "our" indicate the plural number...to insinuate the plurality of Persons in the Deity.

He is not responsible for disease and our weaknesses, He is NOT a designer of things in His universe. He is NOT the incompetent fool you are trying to convince everyone designed us. That's not how it worked.
My G-d, KFC, is not a sadistic being who "designs" women designed to risk death in childbirth because of an imperfectly planned birth canal. He is not an incompetent engineer who thought it would be a fun idea to design a friend of mine to develop Type 1 Diabetes


Well, yes in the beginning God created Adam and Eve perfectly, there was no disease, aging, poor eyesight or pain in childbirth, sorrow or even suffering. At that time all things cohere becasue all things are submissive to the Author of life and being. But this adhesion to God is affected in a free act of love and this freedom gives to the entire creation an incomparable majesty. God receives a praise that is spontaneous of all His creation. ONce man in a gesture of pride and egoism, tempted by Satan refused to obey, thinking he would be like God, the whole order of things fell apart. The entire universe turned against man, its betrayer.

Man's own body revolted and he beheld within himself sinful passions. Seven fetters, which theology later called the capitol sins, will shackle him forevermore. The pair perceive themselves as "naked". There is no more harmony in man's very being...our sorrows are multiplied, we now experience pain.

There is an imbalance that develops between the perfect harmony of man and woman and social discord follows...quarrels in family forms and murder results...wars between cities and between nation and nation, world war and revolutions...

The animal kingdom rises up too as so does the earth...man must work and sweat to earn his meager fruits...

Man was created to be a friend of Christ went astray in the disobedience of Adam...Humanity separated from Christ is without form, harmony or beauty.


The Blessed Trinity didn't leave us in our state of hopeless misery..

Christ came in glory but under the reign of sin; the wall of separation between God and man...also between man and man...Christ the Incarnate God, will humble Himself and come to earth as True-God and True-man and reconcile in His Precious Blood heaven and earth. He will unite the people.

Reply #16 Top
Science (from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") is the effort to discover, understand, or to understand better, how the physical world works, with observable physical evidence as the basis of that understanding. It is done through observation of existing phenomena, and/or through experimentation that tries to simulate phenomena under controlled conditions.

knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method b: such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena

systematized knowledge derived from observation, study, and experimentation carried on in order to determine the nature or principles of what is being studied


Ya, this is what I'm taking about...not this nonsense from Leauki:


that science is not about finding the truth


science is not about finding the truth (that is best left to philosophy professors)


So both Evolution and Creationism call for belief by both faith and study. Faith proceeds all study. Creationism begins with Divine faith (in the Genesis account)that cannot deceive, whereas Evolution begins with human faith that is fallible.

Faith isn't blind blind submission to the unknowable. Rather, it's an intellectual assent of the mind to something not seen with the physical eye, the acceptance of a truth upon the authority of some one else. In Creationism it's faith in Divine authority, taking God at His word. God was the only One there at the beginning. In Evolution it's dependence upon human authroity that may or may not be right despite its personal integrity.

For a rationalist and atheist like Steven Den Beste, ....(Plus I agree with Steven's thinking as well. There is evidence for evolution in the human eye, but no evidence for design.)


If you accept the fallible word of Steven Den Beste, then we accept the infallible testimony of God's word (that He was there as Creator of all) which is greater.



Reply #17 Top
Ok so you defined science from a College Textbook so what does that have to do with Leauki's hypothesis?


No. I did a cut and paste of the definition from a few well known dictionaries.

Leuki is correct. Creationism is not science.


The Wedge strategy is a political and social action plan authored by the Discovery Institute, the hub of the intelligent design movement. The strategy was put forth in a Discovery Institute manifesto known as the Wedge Document, which describes a broad social, political, and academic agenda whose ultimate goal is to "defeat [scientific] materialism" represented by evolution, "reverse the stifling materialist world view and replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions" and to "affirm the reality of God." Its goal is to "renew" American culture by shaping public policy to reflect conservative Christian, namely evangelical Protestant, values.

The strategy was originally brought to the public's attention when the Wedge Document was leaked on the Web. The Wedge strategy forms the governing basis of a wide range of Discovery Institute intelligent design campaigns.


As a humorous response parodying such listing of supposed supporters, the National Center for Science Education produced Project Steve listing only scientists with doctorates in relevant fields (as opposed to the Discovery's Institute's acceptance of signatories from a variety of disciplines, including nonscientists and those without PhDs) who had signed a pro-evolution statement, except that all had to be named "Steve", or its equivalent (such as "Stephanie" or "Esteban"). About 1% of the U.S. population has a name equivalent to "Steve". As of August 2, 2007, the "Project Steve" list included 820 Steves, and it continues to grow.[48] The DI's list meanwhile had eight Steves as of July 25, 2007.
Reply #18 Top

My son is a Christian. He's also a Scientist. So what is he? You're wrong.


I don't know if your son is a Christian. All I know about your sons is that they are your kids and that you never did say that the penguin dude (remember?) wasn't your son.

I don't know if he is a scientist either.

What I do know is that there is no such thing as "Creation science" and hence no such person as a "Creation scientist".

A scientist who is a Christian is NOT a "Creation scientist".

Does your son really do scientific research into Creationism? What experiments has he done? Why hasn't he published any results that you could point to?
Reply #19 Top

1:26, "And he said, "Let us make man to our image and likeness."


G-d's "image" is not a physical form. He doesn't have a physical form.

The image and likeness described is free will, not the body.

It doesn't mean that G-d made our eyes like His eyes.
Reply #20 Top
Turns out the incompetent engineer gave my friend Diabetes because of somebody else's (Adam's) sin.

Is that what you mean, Lula?
Reply #21 Top

1:26, "And he said, "Let us make man to our image and likeness."

I have addressed that issue before.

The Hebrew word for "god" is "el" or "eloh". The form used in the Bible is "elohim", which is a plural but doesn't refer to a fixed number. Hebrew doesn't use the plural like English does.

There are two different plurals in the Hebrew language. One is a plural for a fixed number that is part of the things definition (called the "dual" because it usually denotes a number of two, but it also applied to the four legs of a dog or any number of teeth). The other is what you would think of as a normal plural, referring to a number of things (that are not part of the definition). The second plural is also used as method to denote rank.

"Elohim" is spelt 'LHYM (transliterated). (The dual would be 'LHYYM.) It's a normal plural (not a dual as would be used for a fixed number inherent to the thing described). It refers either to many gods (i.e. the Creator is referring to Himself and other gods) or to the majesty of G-d.

Typically, when referring to Elohim, verbs are placed in the singular in the third person (talking of G-d) and here in the plural in the first person (G-d talking), a plural is also used as a modifier for objects manipulated. I.e. "Elohim" (gods) "bara" (he created), but "btzeleynu" (in our image).

The exact statement you are talking about reads "v'amar elohim n`aseh 'adam btzelmeynu kdemoteynu".

Word for word:

"v'amar": and he said (singular, conjugated form of "lomar", "to say")

"'elohim": "gods" (NOT a fixed defined set plural as explained, here a name for G-d)

"n`aseh": we will do (conjugated form, there is no actual "we" pronoun in there, the word le`asot means "to do" or "spend time", as in "ani `oseh haim" = "I am enjoying life")

"'adam": a variant of "red", here meaning "man"

"btzelmeynu": in (b-) our (-u) image ("tzel" means "shadow", "tzelem" is presumably a variant of it)

"kdemoteynu": like (k-) our (-u) shape (still referring to the same "our" (-u) that is not Elohim)

The words "us" and "our" indicate nothing because they are NOT in the text. There is no "us" ("'et anachnu" or some conjugated form of the preposition "'et") or "our" (doesn't exist in Hebrew) in that sentence.

G-d ("elohim") is here, as usual, described in the singular, addressing the universe (or perhaps a group of angels or other gods, it's not obvious from the grammar). The only plural is the "-u" suffix of "btzelem" and that doesn't refer to the speaker but to the group he speaks to.

It doesn't say "let us create". It says "we will create". Future tense is here possibly used as an Imperative but it is a conjugated verb form that matches the grammatical form of the speaker, it does not refer to an object "us". The only object is 'Adam.

The Hebrew language has a perfectly usable word for "three" ("shalosh"). If the Bible wanted to refer to a trinity, it could have. But judging from the words used and how Hebrew grammar works a specific number is just about the only thing we can rule out. "Elohim" refers either to one or to an unspecified many, but it CANNOT refer to a fixed number inherent to the word.

Does it make a difference to you that the two words you made bold in your text to show your point are not actually in the text you refer to?

I also checked the Luther translation. It's even bloomier than the English translation:

"Und Gott sprach: Laßt uns Menschen machen, ein Bild, das uns gleich sei"

Word for word: "And G-d spoke: let us make man, an image, that be equal to us"

As you can see it's even further from the original text. "Btzelmeynu" is best translated as "in our image". Seems like that sort of thing has been going on for quite a while in Christianity.

I am sure Luther knew what the Hebrew said. And I doubt he thought that Christians after him would interpret the translated text rather than the original text.


Summary:

1. If the Bible referred to a trinity in this sentence, a different plural would be used.

2. The word "us" is not in the text. The verb it is assigned to in the English translation is not in the Hebrew text.

3. The word "our" doesn't exist in the Hebrew language.

[edited to correct a grammar mistake]

[edited again to include "kdemoteynu"]

 

 

Reply #22 Top

And just to freak out Trinitarians, I suppose, 1:27 adds:


"vyebara elohim et haAdam btzelemo"


"And will create G-d the man in his image"


Word for word:


"vyebara": and (v-) he will create (singular third person future tense)


"'elohim": G-d


"et": (preposition for a direct object because Hebrew has no Accusative case)


"haAdam": the man


"btzelemo": in his image



It continues:


"Btzelem elohim bara oto zakher vneqabah bara otem"


"In the image of G-d created him male and female created them"


Word for word:


"btzelem": image


"elohim": G-d (here a Genitive case, i.e. "of G-d")


"bara": he created (conjugated form, past tense first person SINGULAR)


"'oto": him (conjugated form of preposition "et")


"zakher vneqabah": male and female


"bara": he created


"'otem": them (ironically could mean "you" if the unwritten vowels were different)


Reply #23 Top

Leauki posts:
You tried to show that Muhammed's Allah and your god are not the same god because Muhammed didn't speak of a Trinity. Well, guess what, neither did Moses.

Lula posts:
Oh yes, Moses spoke of the Blessed Trinity right here in Genesis 1:26...

1:26, "And he said, "Let us make man to our image and likeness."


Here, the words, "us" and "our" indicate the plural number...to insinuate the plurality of Persons in the Deity.


Leauki posts:
The Hebrew word for "god" is "el" or "eloh". The form used in the Bible is "elohim", which is a plural but doesn't refer to a fixed number. Hebrew doesn't use the plural like English does.


This is good enough for me. "Elohim" is a plural.

The word "trinity" is not found in Sacred Scripture just as the word "incarnation" is not....however both doctrines are [I]in
the Holy Bible.

In ordinary language, trinity means a triad, a number or set of 3. In theological language, it means a threefold personality, existing in substance, in one Divine Being as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. It's the doctrine of the Catholic Chruch, that was proclaimed by Christ as recounted by StMatthew 28:19-20. The Church also announced in the Apostles'Creed, pronounced explicitly in the Nicene Creed, and defined in a more explanatory way in the Athanasian Creed.

The unity and triunity of God runs all through the New Testament. Belief in the Trinity permeates the New Testament to so great a degree, that denial of it places one doctrinally outside the pale of Christianity.

The Jews reject the implication it embodies that their Law was fulfilled and thus their mission was ended. Judaism was a battle for monotheism, the doctrine of the oneness of the eternal God against the polytheism of the people who surrounded and persecuted the Israelites during 20 centuries before the Christian era. This necessitated their stressing the oneness of God to such a degree that any but the formal explanation of it met with resentment, the spirit of which still abides in Jewry.

This attitude of the Jews isn't surprising for the full revelation of the nature of God didn't come to man until the Advent of the King of the Jews, the Messias. Today, they fail to appreciate the simple fact that the teachings of the Christ, the Messias, are an acknowledgement and not a denial of God's oneness as proclaimed in the Sh'ma--"Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one." The eternal law in the Sh'ma (hear) is more fully expressed in the Trinity, for it tells us that the ONe God manifests as the Creator, the Redeemer, and the Sanctifier without impairing His ONeness.

Catholics believe in one true God and one only; that He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; that He functions as 3 distinctive persons--Father, Son and Holy Ghost. This is the unity and plurality of the one true God inferred in Genesis v. 26.

Isias understood the plurality mentioned by Moses in Genesis. Three distinct persons are named in the Godhead, "God the Eternal, God the "Spirit" and "Lord the Redeemer" is quoted in Isias 47:16-17.

Reply #24 Top

This is good enough for me. "Elohim" is a plural.


I know it's good enough for you. That's the problem. You avoid even the most basic reading by deciding that you know enough at a point.

"Elohim", the word, is a plural. But it isn't the plural that Hebrew would use to refer to a Trinity. Plus the word is never treated as plural but as a name. The verbs it commands are singular.

My word-for-word translation above shows you that "Elohim" always commands a singular verb form. It is always "Elohim says", never "Elohim say". Sometimes Elohim speaks and includes the addressees of his words in the pronoun.

If Paul (some guy) announces to a group of strangers something like "Let's have dinner together", it doesn't mean that Paul is more than one person, and it certainly doesn't imply that he is three people.

If that same Paul is earlier and later in the story clearly referred to as a singular ("Paul says"), we can definitely be certain that Paul is not three people.

"Elohim" is, as I said, plural. But it is NOT the correct plural for a Trinity. Hebrew has two different plurals, and that's not the one you need.

I am beginning to think that we do not only disagree on theology but also on how important it is to study scripture. You think a superficial glance is enough, I think that a certain level of study is required for us to understand scripture.

Reply #25 Top
I don't know if he is a scientist either.


Well he's a Neuro Scientist working on his Ph.D. He's also a very strong and solid Christian believing in Creationism.

What I do know is that there is no such thing as "Creation science" and hence no such person as a "Creation scientist".


ok, from your POV and it's your opinion. But there are many out there who would disagree with you. Have you ever heard of Answers In Genesis? Many, many scientists worldwide believe different Leauki. Here's the Link.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/

So Leauki....you totally ignored my post #9 when I asked you to defend your hypothesis. You made a claim and I have yet to see how you back it up. I asked you:

You made assumptions with NO facts. I gave you literature. I've given you solid scientific fact. Where are your facts? Don't just say things.


Show me where the more Christian the nation, the stupider the science......show me the money!