I understand the situation and see the point but remember this is the two *generals* that we're talking about here. Like I said earlier I had serious misgivings about letting them in the league to begin with. Can anyone honestly be surprised when neither submitted a game.

At least from what KP says GH did inform him and then KP informed the league. I have no reason to doubt KP's word nor does anyone else. Remember the honor system. Everyone has the opportunity to cheat 20 different and totally undetectable ways on each and every game.

Going down this path is a no win situation and I think everybody should calm down, take a deep breath, and realize the gravity of these accusations. This is precisely why I recommended that neither general be allowed in the league to begin with. GE only has a single game that he's ever posted to the metaverse.

GH has a total of 12 games submitted to the metaverse and I find it somewhat funny that there are two games, both influence wins, one on a medium and the other on a large galaxy, within the timeframe of this round where he presumably couldn't submit a game. But although I find it funny I cannot believe that KP or anyone on Team D would be part of any suggestion that he shouldn't submit so that the team could get a submission bonus. I simply refuse to believe it and unless someone has specific *proof* otherwise I think this should be the end of that suggestion.


I have no reason to doubt any of this and as I said I'm not surprised by this and I can't imagine why this would surprise anyone else.

Let's turn down the rhetoric on both sides. No one is whining and accusations of such are as unwarrented as accusations of deliberate non-submissions.

Well, I am trying to catch up, checking data, gathering consensus from my teamates and being a little nonsensical as you put it in the process. I'm not sure how this loophole got in there, but I know your a smart guy and the score keeper. So if anyone knew it would play out that way. The way the losers see it I guess. Anyways the MVL is all about Honor and Honesty and I have to believe you are being honest or I couldn't continue playing.

I had actually talked to Silver last night and he made no mention of the informed absence. That could of changed a lot, because then it wouldn't look like a last minute thing. All this bullshit over a lousy 2 points, that's why I was just going to get on with life and tried with a fair shake in your direction.

While on the Commish subject and I'm trying to be honest as possible. I am not into politics and don't play that game well. I wholeheartedly believe you will be elected the next commissioner by a fair margin. The League needed an established long time player to make it a good looking election. If I can help out the league by playing the role of the "stooge" then that is fine. I do believe you can do the job just fine. It is totally unrelated to the above, because being the commish would not necessarily grant you the power to help your team. There's a lot of accountability that comes with the job.

Maybe I'm still offbase on what I'm trying to get across, but then again I never seem to be able to express myself very well.

Like I said I don't think we need any explicit rule for "deliberate non-submissions".

I quoted the new rule 5 above that deals with a wide range of punishments ranging from loss of points to suspension to banning from the league for any activity ranging from cheating, of which the deliberate non-submission has to be considered a subset, to any other disruptive behavior. These are serious penalties for serious breaches of behavior that can be applied by the commissioner.

One point about being commissioner, and I'm sure both Neilo and Silver will agree, is that you need to be able to step back from a situation and make a measured and fair decision without allowing emotion to color your decision.

Dude, don't sell yourself short.

I've known you a long time and always found you to be honestly helpful and friendly. People are what they are and no one expects people to be something else. One thing I am certain of is that you will say what you mean at every step of the process regardless of whether that happens to be in your best interest or not.

To some, such brutal honesty may seem a touch foolish. To me it's refreshing.

Your absolutely right about a lot of accountability comes with the job. I believe that the person needs to be suited to the job, but I also believe that people tend to live up to the expectations that others place on them and that the position requires.

Frankly I've seen a little un-commissioner like behavior from both sides here, but that's life. I'm not expecting a saint, I'm expecting someone that will operate with the best interests of the league at heart. I have total confidence that either of you can supply that.

I have to go for a bit. The wife wants to play escaped convict meets the cleaning lady and this time I get to be the convict.

Can we just cool down for a bit in the meantime?

I'm cool, it's cool. In fact I think it went rather well. KP had every right to fly off the handle at me, but remained calm and diplomatic about the whole thing. Appearances can be deceiving and perceptions can change from one person to the next. Maybe I'm just paranoid and think the Kzinti are out to get me . No matter what's said is said and being wrong is one human trait I am pretty good at, So I'll man up and apologize to KP and Team D.

Now when is this election so we can get on to round ten.

OK. I had to do some digging but I took a look back through some of the endless threads we seem to generate to find what Neilo did the last time around. And I quote:


I see no reason to do anything differently. Also if no one objects I'll take the liberty of being the master of ceremonies and be the prime receiver of votes unless Silver wishes to take that honor as outgoing commissioner.

We could wait for some more potential nominations but I think we've waited a fair time already and I would have expected that anyone interested would have been heard from by now. So at this point the official candidates for commissioner are KzintiPartiarch and DethAdder.

Also given that a week has been established as the voting period we may as well get to it so we can get back to playing.

So unless anyone objects I suggest that we hold the vote starting on the 13th and ending 1 week later on the 20th. Votes have until midnight forum time on July, 20 to be PM'd to the appropriate people.

If Silver wishes to run this show then I suggest that he respond soon and say so in which case I'll volunteer to be the alternate receiver of votes. Else if he doesn't respond I'll need someone else to be the alternate and I'll be the primary.

On this timeframe we have all day tomorrow to hear from the candidates and hear from Silver and/or other volunteers to receive votes.

Unless I hear great screams of anguish about how I'm overstepping my bounds I'll assume this plan is a go.

I'd still like to see the scoring breakdown.

@DA and KP: I hope you two have solved whatever it was going on there.


There's this part of me that wishes I could make the time to really focus on the MVL and throw my name back into the ring for consideration (talk about an upset haha)

Anyhow, I would be glad to be MC and be the primary vote tally. I would like to announce Mumblefratz as my Secondary Vote Receiver.

It will work like this:

Every current member of the MVL, or announced Sabbatical player (eg Wyndstar) would send a PM through these forums to either Myself (Silverbeacher) or Mumblefratz with the name of either KzintiPatriarch or DethAdder as their choice for Commissioner.

At the end of the Voting Period (13th-20th) the winner will be announced.

Its really not a difficult process, lets not make it one.

Anything else i need to cover kids?

-Silver-

***Note: This is a DIRECT copy of Mumble's score tally from the Tyranny MVL Parliament Thread that is open for viewing to all MVL players***


Team A - The A Team

Mumblefratz : Torshiro Mifune - 6 year 125,250 ( 18 - 166 ) - 1 Score BP (1st)
AF_Ronin : Captain Adam Ronin -
FreeeLancer : FreeeLancer - 2 year 25,200 ( 12 - 88 ) - 1 Speed BP (4th)
Ghostwes : Ghostwes - 6 year 26,250 ( 1 - 43 )
PlayJeff45 : Pike the Persecutor - 5 year 33,125 ( 21 - 185 ) *
Silverbeacher : Boilermaker -

Individual BP's = 2
Average Score = 52,456.25 = 2 Score BP (1st) * (58,900 if PlayJeff's game is not accepted, still 1st place team score)
Average Speed = 4.75
Average Submission = 13.0
Total Score = 12 * (10 if PlayJeff's game is not accepted)

Team B - Blade Runners

JustinSane4 : JustinSane5 - 1 year 50,400 ( 5 - 62 ) - 1 Speed BP (3rd)
Ferrel : Dionysus - 6 year 84,700 ( 17 - 165 ) - 1 Score BP (3rd)
Lethrin : Lucius Gemini - 7 year 15,400 ( 20 - 183 )
MarshallONeil : WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot -
TheGreatEmperor : The Sandwitch Maker - 7 year 20,300 ( 19 - 181 )
VegJed : Evil Buggers -

Individual BP's = 2
Average Score = 42,700 = 1 Score BP (2nd)
Average Speed = 5.25
Average Submission = 15.25
Total Score = 11

Team C - Celestial Crusaders

FireBender : Alcadeias -
Davabled : Captain Oblivious - 3 year 24,150 ( 8 - 78 )
Defcon13 : Peril - 3 year 26,950 ( 7 - 74 )
Freeman43 : GordanFreeman43 - 5 year 17,850 ( 9 - 84 )
Noctilucus : Noctilucus - 4 year 18,550 ( 13 - 93 )
Wyndstar : Random -

Individual BP's = 0
Average Score = 21,875
Average Speed = 3.75 = 2 Speed BP (Tie)
Average Submission = 9.25 = 1 Submission BP (2nd)
Total Score = 11

Team D - Domination of Death

KzintiPatriarch : DevilCat - 5 year 36,750 ( 3 - 54 )
General Homsar : General Homsar -
GeneralEtrius : Etrius -
Piznit : ArcLightning - 0 year 16,100 ( 16 - 130 ) - 1 Speed BP (1st)
Ragnar1 : Ragnar MVL - 4 year 27,650 ( 11 - 86 )
Seven300 : Dedrick The Demolisher - 6 year 41,650 ( 4 - 58 )

Individual BP's = 1
Average Score = 30,537.5
Average Speed = 3.75 = 2 Speed BP (Tie)
Average Submission = 8.5 = 2 Submission (1st)
Total Score = 13

Team E - Eternal Villainy

Neilo : Centurion Neilo - 1 year 57,750 ( 6 - 71 ) - 1 Score BP (4th), 1 Speed BP (2nd)
DethAdder : MetaLeaguer - 6 year 107,100 ( 14 - 94 ) 1 Score BP (2nd)
DSep : Jorilik Coston - 6 year 12,600 ( 15 - 122 )
Lord_Arkham : Heracles - 6 year 13,250 ( 2 - 48 )
Pndrev : Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz - 5 year 12,250 ( 10 - 85 )

Individual BP's = 3
Average Score = 40,590
Average Speed = 4.8
Average Submission = 9.4
Total Score = 11

Deleted

WOW lots going on.
Lots of interest from the newer players to be Commish.
Freeman43, I was OK with you being Commish, However I tend to agree with Mumble in the fact you should be around a little longer. Too many have come and gone.
2 Great vets to chose from for Commish.... However KP does sleep with his Computer.

Hmmm i hate not being able to check the threads as often as you guys whilst i am at work, plus these damn time zones don't work to my favor at times....BUT...


Now it seems that everyone is willing to move on and so i will have to i guess but i could not in good graces continue playing without some further clarification.



No i don't and i did state that i did not believe this to be the case , nor can i recall any such time in the past either. I just feel it is portion of the MVL open to exploitation and we should address it.

It doesn't matter whether a team cheats or the luck of the gods is with them this circumstance can happen again and i think it is unfair, even if it did happen to work in the favor of a team i was on previously. Which if the following statements are going to be said i want them to be backed up by fact..


To me this statement translates as "it was good for you when it benefited you, but now that it has worked against you, you are whinging.

I'm sorry but if i am whinging i'd like to know where. I simply stated i thought it was unfair and if it happened in the past where it happened to help my team then i believe that to be unfair as well.



So what? So i was on the team, does that make my concerns less important just because i was on a team that allegedly benefited from this loophole. The fact i was on the team then and on the team now doesn't matter as i see it. It seems like there is more being said here between the lines that i am not seeing.

And once again for the record, i have never objected to this rounds scoring, or have i cried foul and want something done to alter the scores this round. I have asked and proposed that a rule be brought in to stop this from happening to anyone in the future.



Im sorry but the way i read this comment is .."shut up whinger, you got away with it once now wear it"

I really don't care about this rounds scoring as it pertains to this situation, i wish only for it not to happen in the future. Insinuating otherwise, which some comments have done, is insulting and uncalled for, especially those that are false to begin with.

My sincere apologies Neilo. DA had me uncharacteristically angry, which doesnt happen very often at all. Team D struggled for most of last season due to an unstable membership, but I dont think any of us had voiced a word of complaint. And now that we had finally had a good round again in Round 9, it is called into question, the rules under which we've played for many rounds were now suddenly unfair, and to top it off there was an implication of cheating. I think you can understand my frustration with the whole situation.

DA and I have communicated over PM and I think we are good now. As for the election, it doesnt seem that either DA or I really have a desire to be commissioner, but are both willing to take that role if it is needed. I'm really quite happy with being a team captain & scorekeeper. I will say I wont be voting for myself, although I wont say exactly how I'll be voting.

Neilo, are you sure you dont want to be commissioner again?

Sentient species taste better...

Hey, no problem KP. Just for the record though i did not question Team D's effort or their win of this round, also even if the rules were altered team E still would not get the sub bonus as i believe Team C would still have got it, so this debate was never about any team winning unfairly or not deservingly, but the rule governing this, or lack thereof needed addressing as one could easily see based on the last day or so how exploitable this situation could be or what a misunderstanding it can create.

Obviously Both DA and i were pissed about losing out on points not due to our lack of skill or strategy but the lack of will of others who failed to submit games. though like Mumble said we should have really expected no less from those in question but that's what we get for being fair and giving everyone a go.

I know i'm happy to move on but would still like to discuss a rule pertaining to non-submitals/no shows and their affect on the sub bonus, but this can be handled in the rule book thread.

As for the Commish role i believe both yourself KP and DA would make fine commissioner's and do the position proud but if neither of you guys want the job i guess i will throw my name back in.

I feel though that an election should still be held, i don't think i should just be able to take the position without everyone having their say who they would like. Of course i would need a nomination to be able to run for the position, and do remember what you are getting yourselves into, i'm about as blunt as a 100 year old axe but will always call it right down the middle.

This basically seems to be calming down now which is good.

Let's table any further discussion about the potential inequities of deliberate non-submissions until we resolve the commissioner issue. I do believe that our rule 5 catch all is sufficient to deal with the issue. I also believe that to try and do anything like counting announced non-submittals as a submission at the last minute for submission bonus purposes is wrong as well. Any kind of rule in this regard will be very confusing and probably not very effective. If this path is chosen I would prefer to abandon the submission bonus entirely.

But in any case we can certainly bring up what if anything to do about this after the election is out of the way. By then things will have calmed further and it can be discussed with less regard to how it's recently helped or hurt various teams. We just have too much going on for a drawn out rules discussion at the moment. Wait a week and then we can get into it.


Oh great. This really isn't what we need here. First you decline the nomination then accept and then seem to back down here.

Please don't take anything badly here. I know nerves may be frayed and my intent is certainly not to worsen the situation.

My interpretation is that initially declining the nomination was your natural feeling but then you accepted basically because the league does need a commissioner and you were willing to do the work if no one else did. Basically the above is the same kind of expression.

There's nothing wrong with being a reluctant candidate. Like I said earlier the best person is probably the one that wants it the least.

However the appearance of a flip flop is not helpful.


Actually this really isn't all that helpful either because it further muddies a situation that was just starting to become clear.

Obviously no one would object to Neilo being commissioner again. However, are you willing to commit to being commissioner forever? If so then we can discuss it, but if not then sooner or later pretty much all the veteran players in this league will need to step up and take a turn. Going back to you is a safe and familar choice. It's a choice that will occur sooner or later but now is simply not that time. I'm sure sooner or later I'll take a turn at it as well but again now is not that time.

We currently have two very credible nominees. Yes they may be reluctant but so what. They've both stated that they don't particularly want the job but are willing to do it because the league needs them to. Nothing has changed that makes this any different.

I say the league needs a commissioner and that even if the two candidates are somewhat reluctant it's time for one of them to take their turn at the job. Then in another 3 or 4 months it can be someone elses turn. But flailing around and flip floping in front of the league is not very helpful.

I still say the election should proceed as I outlined last night (and corroborated by Silver). The election starts on the 13th (tomorrow) and runs until midnight of the 20th. The candidates are KP and DA. For all I care KP will vote for DA and DA will vote for KP however one of them will be our new commissioner for a period of at least 3 months at which time they can step down if they wish.

Votes should be PM'd to me or Silver. We will share all results that we recieve and announce the final results jointly once the election is over. All votes will be acknowledged with a return PM.

We need to proceed with this with no further complications, the league can't take much more.

Everybody OK with this?

ya i had the feeling this would happen so much for being Commis but what about VC. oh well i guess its up to KP.

We'll deal with the VC question once we have a new commissioner. Precisely how we should select a new VC is kind of up in the air at the moment, we may have an election or perhaps it could be a simple appointment.

Basically last time only FireBender expressed interest and so was simply appointed. But if there's interest by more than one person we should probably have an election.

It's actually unfortunate that both Silver and FB needed to resign at the same time because otherwise the VC could have provided some continuity, but what can you do.

To clear up a possible misunderstanding that some of the newer players might have, the commissioner is not some kind of dictator. Basically the commissioner is closer to a referee. The league as a whole discusses what the rules should be and the commissioner merely enforces those rules. Sometimes the commissioner needs to make a decision where we really have no rule to guide us and then he does so but then we would always follow up and agree on a rule that defines how a similar situation should be handled in the future.

So for example how we decide to select the next VC is not merely up to the next commissioner whoever that may be. It's up to the league to decide. It's possible for the league to decide that the commissioner gets to select the VC but if so it's still the league's decision that it be that way *not* the commissioner's decision.

Basically the authority of how the league is to be run resides with all of the members of the league, the commissioner is merely the current *representative* of league authority but ultimate authority *always* resides with the members themselves.

Thanks for the scoring breakdown Silver. I rarely go to ToE.

However did this get so complex? I have trouble keeping up with it all   

This is a really good summary of what the Commish is in his placement in the League. The MVL isn't an empire, and the Commissioner doesn't get to make edicts (but oh how I wanted to hehe) or change the fundamentals. The Commissioner IS the League: that is, I mean, his duty is to be representative and fair to its Players; to put forth the Benefit of the League before his own Endeavors; and to listen and support wholeheartedly the Will of the Players of the League.


Moving along; I think DA and KP would make fine commissioners- though in either case may I humbly suggest a certain level of patience and decorum (which I will say for all the saber-rattling earlier, things never got out of hand); the only example I can give is that a few months ago we had a debate on the inclusion of some player(s) that wished to join- some members were adamantly opposed, so far as to say they may even wish to quit the League; in the end, I stayed cool and calm about it, offered a reasonable compromise, and we did what we could as a League to be inclusive. It didn't matter ultimately as the individual never ended up actually participating, but what could of have been a divisive issue just flowed past without any trouble at all.

Its advice I had to give Neilo on occasion when he was still Commish, as he can probably attest to . Its easy to get flustered or annoyed or goodness knows what. Sometimes we just have to take a break and go about our day and come back to things once we've had a chance to have a good long think about it.

I know for me, obviously I'm not against rules; heck, I think 2/3 of the rules in the rulebook are based on various propositions that Mumble and I have floated but also, one will notice that any rules that Mumble and I have proposed have a certain level of flexibility in them- they are not case specific, and there's a reason for this. Its so that when something unexpected happens, we have a TEMPLATE to help us make an informed and acceptable decision. Having an exact rule such as let's say: A Non Submission not notified by the last week of a round will result in a 2pt deduction for a team unless a majority of players decide to waive that deduction- is just tedium and makes for a lot of work, and quite simply, bad feeling on parts of players that may have legitimate reasons.

We covered almost all of this the FIRST time we added the submission bonus. Some of you may remember were actually very against it. In the end, i think its added a respectable aspect of gameplay to the League. And again, its not perfect, but sometimes I think we move too quickly to call for "fixes" or "changes". Here's an example for you- back in December PlayJeff literally disappeared off the face of the Earth- completely and utterly uncharacteristic as he had been a very vocal and continued presence on the forums. Would have it been fair if his team had been punished for something that obv. wasn't planned? And then if that is the case how do you distinguish between the two? You hopefully, can start seeing the dilemma that can arise when you start getting too bogged down into rules and what ifs.

I think between the Honor Rule Addendum and the new Player Misbehavior rules, we are pretty well covered.

Anyhow, finally....

Votes for KP or DA should be sent to either myself or Mumblefratz; once we have received and counted your vote, you will get a Confirmation Reply through PM.

I want to make another couple of points.

One is that in reply #222 Ghostwes mentioned that he would have to withdraw from the league for a time but cast his vote for KP. Even though the vote hasn't technically started I believe that Ghostwes' vote should count as cast unless he later sends in a PM in the normal manner.

The other question that came up was a point of order about not allowing Neilo to be part of the election process by just adding his name to a three way election. My response is as I tried to explain in my reply #241 was that everyone would be perfectly happy to have Neilo as commissioner again, but in some sense letting Neilo be commissioner again is a convenient crutch. It would be great as long as he wished to remain commissioner but when he left we'd be in the same situation as we are now.

Basically my concern was we had established an election bewteen KP and DA. Perhaps this was done a little presumptively on my part but an election was established and in fact was also confirmed by the current commissioner. Only after that did Neilo mention the possibility of running again. Note that he didn't state it as a certainty but only as a possibility. And then if we allowed that possibility there was the possibility that KP or DA or even both would want to withdraw their names. Now what would we do. I simply felt that introduing Neilo's name in the mix at this late date would only add more confusion to an already confusing situation.

Anyway that was my reasoning and I hope everyone understands and agrees. This has been way more confusing than it should have been, what with the discussion of deliberate non-submissions as well as interjections of what we'll do about a VC running throughout the discussion of an election. Also the initial reluctance of the candidates, although understandable, added even more confusion to the mix. We certainly don't need any more confusion at this point.

So as far as everyone is concerned the election is between KP and DA, starts the 13th and runs to the 20th and votes should be cast by PM'ing either Silver or myself.

OK?

Hey!! Way to slap me in the face guys.

I missed the conversation that stated that potential credible candidates were not allowed to run for office because Mumble and Silver say so.

Whilst many of your points guys seem valid and are reasonable, just simply stating i cannot run is not one of them.



I already stated this by saying my work load is different now then when i was previously commissioner. And since when do we need to discuss the issue? Do i need to prove myself to be able to be considered?



Whats changed? A third candidate who stated that he will run if nominated. And in light of two candidates that don't want the job, a third choice who does and is already proven would have been change enough to make me see different.

Look in the last few days i feel i have been slapped in the face twice by people i consider friends. There's alot of assumptions and presumption being thrown about here with little time for anyone else to respond, especially those on the other side of the planet.

Both DA and KP will make fine commissioners and will do the MVL proud.

I highly doubt i will participate in the following round of the MVL as i evaluate my playing future.

No hard feelings personally Mumble and Silver, i just would rather remain friends with you guys then to be in a position to be treated like this again. I wear my heart on my sleeve as many of you know and being disregarded like this offends me. I certainly wish to remain friends with you guys and i think not being part of the MVL may help achieve that.

I nominate Neilo for Commissioner of the MVL.

And... we should just add this clause.

1. New Commissioner every three rounds. If incumbent Commish wishes to remain after three rounds and noone wants the job then he/she gets it automatically. Normal election rules apply if there is another nominated candidate.


How time consuming is this position, really? It seems like something one could spend 15-20 minutes daily and be productive/meet deadlines etc. yes?

I haven't been here long so pardon any potential naivety.

Never mind. I give up trying to straighten up this mess. Do whatever you like. Let me know how it turns out.

[edit] I had no intention of slapping anyone in the face, I was merely trying to make sense of a senseless situation. First pretty much everyone declines all nominations. Then they have to be begged to run. All the while people are interrupting any election discussions with heated conversations about other topics. Finally after a election is announced and confirmed by the current commissioner our original commissioner throws his hat in the ring.

I have nothing but respect for everyone that I've mentioned here but like I said I was only trying to make sense of a very confusing situation. That's the last time I'll try to do that. [/edit]