Bahu Virupaksha Bahu Virupaksha

OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST

OBAMA, ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST

A Dangerous Policy

Barack Obama seemed to be making all the right noices, well, until he clinched the Democratic Party nomination. The speech given  before the AIPAC yesterday came as a huge surprise to me. I did not expect him to break the traditional frienship with Israel, but I did not expect him to sign on to the extreme right wing interpretation of Israeli-US relations. Obama was of course courting the powerful jewish American vote and we are all realistic or cynical enough to understand that the ocassion called for a strident reaffirmation of the traditional US policy. And given Sen John Mccain's carping on this issue, Senator Obama had to rachet up the rhetoric. But his policy statement is really alarming. Let me expalin why.

The road map to which the US is a party envisages a viable Palestenian state living in peace and security with Israel. Israel is one of the few countries that has not published its official boundries. Will Golan Heights be returned to Syria. Will Sheba Farms  be returned to Lebabon> These questions remain to be answered. Further, is Israel willing to withdraw to the 1967 boundry, the only solution that seems acceptable to Arab publoc opinion. Obama did not say a word about the contentious issues: instead he waxed eloquently about "tough diplomay" which he equated with statecraft. I think giving Israel a carte blanhe ibn the region, as Obama has proposed, wiill not help the cause of peace in the Middle East and it certainly will not help Israel. USA maust paly the role the Bismark played in the Congress of Berlin in 1877 in order to achieve peace.

The tough rhrtoric of Barack Obama, much tougher than John Maccain's, means that he is willing to give Israel veto power over its Arab neighnors. The road to peace, like apostle Paul's passes through Damascus. Obama seems to have forgotten that. To quote his own words "somewhre along the road to the nomination he has forgotten his own principles."

Iran and Iraq are different issues altogether. The mistake Bush made in Iraq was that he bought Paul Wolfowitz's line that the Middle East can be restructured with the removal of Saddam Hussein. We all know how foolish that assumption was and Iraq has become the singe most impoertant issue in this election. Barack Obama would be more realistic if he did not make tall claims about doing "everything in his power" to stop  Iran from getting the nuclear weapons. Is he sayinmg that he will nuke tTheran if Iran is close to acquing nuclear weapons. Is this a realistic policy. Rhetoric apart, we have come to expect statemenship from Barack Obama not Rambo like bombast. His "tough diplomacy" is not like Theofre Roosevelt's policy of walikg softly while carrying a big stick. Bluff and bluster have no palce in a post Iraq US foreigh policy.

I do agree with the argument that Israel's legitimate right to existence and security are non negotiable. However, I do not see how backing Israel's aggressive policy of what even the former US president Jimmy Carter has called "apartheid" will help in bringing about peace. Hamas is a foece to reckon with in the region like Hezbollah and it is naive to think that if USA does not negotiate with them, these forces will just disappear: take a long days journey into night.

 

28,267 views 54 replies
Reply #26 Top
Yo? I said that i was on no one's side and don't give a rats ass about the situations because its just not worth my time to research on my own. From what you wrote, you are calling all of the Palestinians lazy. I'm just saying it as I see it,= Terrorist terrorizing the population if they ever do get to negotiating with Israel. Without peace and being a country that from what I've found has had sanctions placed upon them, I'd say that would be damn hard to stabilize things around oh and don't forget about the terrorists running around recruiting the young :( . I will read and take in the things said, but its just not worth the effort that would go into arguing, everyone will defend their opinion and it would become an endless loop from looking around these forums. Until something happens to my own country then I Do Not care. Hehe, I seriously sound VERY EVIL. But its night-time from where I am, i just got back from my job, and am very tired. ~_~ sleepy as hell and going to refresh my brain before i say anymore so i don't make an ass out of myself. So i say good night from S.E.A.
(And i don't care if i made an ass out of myself already. lol) -Aw damnit
Reply #27 Top
Yo? I said that i was on no one's side and don't give a rats ass about the situations because its just not worth my time to research on my own. From what you wrote, you are calling all of the Palestinians lazy
End of quote


YOu also missed the punctuation apparently. I was not asking you to do anything. I was merely trying to explain that in my opinion they are lazy in not creating a government (not that they may or may not be lazy about taking our trash, doing dishes, etc.). My questions were rhetorical (that sometimes is not apparent with the written word).

YOu asked me to back up my opinion. I stated some of the sources for it. But I am not going to go the route of "until you have walked a mile....." crap. A fellow student in high school tried that crap on me when I condemned drug use (this was the hippy era if that gives you an idea). I will tell you what I told her then: "I have not tried arsenic and do not intend to, so are you saying I cannot call it a poison?"

The same thing here. I dont have to live among them to know that life is not fair. And life is very hard - more so if you are lazy or stupid. We have only to look at how others have dealt with adversity and risen above it. And we do not have to look far. In 1948, the Palestinians and Israelis were in about the same boat (that is history, so yea, that is a fact). Look at where they are now? it does not take a genius to figure out that one group of people had a dream and busted their butts to achieve it. The other just played the victim - and never achieved much of anything.

Dont be so sensitive. I understand you dont have a side. And you were just questioning (albeit somewhat accusingly - but no skin off my nose) my position. That is why I said "opinion" several times. OPinion does not have to be based on anything (that is usually called bias), but having it based on facts helps.
Reply #28 Top
Alright, I apologize if I made it sound like an accusation. I see how you view the situation, but from the last news I saw, aren't there also different types of groups trying to take power? If thats true, I think that it could be something that could make forming a government much harder. Oh, and good morning from S.E.A. :HOT:
Reply #29 Top
Alright, I apologize if I made it sound like an accusation. I see how you view the situation, but from the last news I saw, aren't there also different types of groups trying to take power? If thats true, I think that it could be something that could make forming a government much harder. Oh, and good morning from S.E.A.
End of quote


Good morning as well! And you have a very valid point. It is unfortunate that the society of Palestinians is hampered by the meglomania of some. That does temper my statements and opinions as while I still think the issue of "laziness" plays a part it is not the entire reason they have not been able to progress. Yet all societies have their prima donnas. Most at least marginalize them to have little or no effect. Palestinians do not seem inclined to marginalize theirs in order to move forward.

And I should clairify that when I say "lazy" I am not talking about Individual one or two. Just the society as a whole. Individual results may vary.
Reply #30 Top
Ah well, I would still give em 10 year. Why 10 years? I am overly optimistic that things in Iran and Syria will settle or fry which will hopefully die down the fighting, slowing the funds. Ah, I think I see a flaw in my predictions but can't figure where it is at the moment. The cursed nights are back! ;p :LOL:
-=What factions are fighting in Palestine at the moment? Any connections with the countries I mentioned above?=-
Reply #31 Top

And I should clairify that when I say "lazy" I am not talking about Individual one or two. Just the society as a whole. Individual results may vary.
End of quote

What you call "laziness" could well be the apathy engendered by an overwhelmning sense of gloom born of a deep rooted sense of wasted life. Three generations in a refugee camp is a life that does not make for a happy existence.

Reply #32 Top
Three generations in a refugee camp is a life that does not make for a happy existence.
End of quote


:SURPRISED: :SURPRISED: Wholly OMG, Ok I will now back from this since I don't really know anything about that. I don't think I saw anything about refugee camps. May I ask for more information about this?
Reply #33 Top
What you call "laziness" could well be the apathy engendered by an overwhelmning sense of gloom born of a deep rooted sense of wasted life.
End of quote


Say that 3 times fast! ;)

Yes it very well could be, and I think I like your term better. At least the Apathy part. But again, even if it was "3 generations", it was not at the beginning. It could be a mindset (much as the mind set of latin american country citizens about social classes). If they have always been apathetic, and show no sign of changing that, then there is nothing that anyone can do about it. Again, they must do it, no one can do it for them. Instead, they play the victim and get a lot of pity. But that does not feed the children or create a thriving society.
Reply #34 Top
Last I checked anything about Palestine, weren't there some sort of sanctions placed upon them? If true, wouldn't that add more difficulty to the process of growth? From what I feel, Israel also gets more than what the Palestinians gets to jump start as a country. (No, this view is not a conspiracy theory.)
Reply #35 Top
From what I feel, Israel also gets more than what the Palestinians gets to jump start as a country.
End of quote


They got more? or had more? In other words, in 1948, they were all in basically the same boat. one built. The other did not. Perhaps it was a state of mind and not material things. I think Israel has a lot more today, but that was not the case 60 years ago.
Reply #36 Top
ah, its 12:03 AM here. I'd have to say good night. But reading some news and "all that stuff." Some of these things say that Israel gets a large chunk of US Foreign Aid today. Uh, sorry its late so I can't give sites and sources. Ah well, think I'll end it before I break down. Good Night and Peace Out.
Reply #37 Top
Good Night and Peace Out.
End of quote


Have a restful one! Peace out.
Reply #38 Top

Instead, they play the victim and get a lot of pity. But that does not feed the children or create a thriving society
End of quote

May be there is as you say a great deal of rhetoric as far as victimhood is concerned and as I have always stated the ASrabs are also to blame. But shouls Israel agree to sincere negotiations and a drawback to the 1967 borders then may be a beginning can be made.

Reply #39 Top
But shouls Israel agree to sincere negotiations and a drawback to the 1967 borders then may be a beginning can be made.
End of quote


With the exception of Jeruselem, the 1967 borders are a non issue as they do not impact the paleastinians at all. That is a red herring used to excuse the fact that Israel has given a lot, the palestinians have not given at all.
Reply #40 Top

With the exception of Jeruselem, the 1967 borders are a non issue as they do not impact the paleastinians at all. That is a red herring used to excuse the fact that Israel has given a lot, the palestinians have not given at all.
End of quote

Finally you have agreed that Jerusalem is a disputed territory. A question: Israel was founded by a UN resolution in 1948. Who lived on that land before the arrival of the European jews? Obviously the Palestenians. These people were under the mandade of Britain and that is why the Balfour Declaration is important because it refers to Palestine as a specific territory. You cannot erase the memory of the very existence of a "place" known as Palestine.

You say Israel has give a lot. I am afraid that this is not true. Putting up settlements in complete violation of UN resolutions, illegal occupation of the Golan Heights and Sheba Farms. building a concrete barrier across the West Bank, lauching punitive and violent attacks on Palestenian civillians, food, fuel and economic blockade of civillians etc ect. The list of Israeli iniquities is endless. And why this inhuman treatment of a whole race/ethic group.

Reply #41 Top
The biggest problem is the American Jewish Lobby. No politician can win without their support. So even though U.S. Foreign policy as written says no more settlements, the Jewish lobby has actually supported many groups that have funded the establishments of some of the settlements. It was no coincidence that Hillary waited 2 days to declare Obama the winner of the primary at the AIPAC Conference. But Obama's position is no carte blanche for Israel. He said Jerusalem should not be split, but the settlements will be the trade off.
Reply #42 Top
Who lived on that land before the arrival of the European jews?
End of quote


Mid Eastern Jews and nomads, along with arabs. Obviously the term Palestinian is a coined one to designate anyone living in the area. While there were some monolithic blocks, they are not the "insurgents" of today.

You say Israel has give a lot. I am afraid that this is not true.
End of quote


A lot is a subjective term. Put it this way. What has Israel given versus the Palestinians? In comparison, the term is no longer subjective but objective. The only side that has given is the Israelis.
Reply #43 Top
The biggest problem is the American Jewish Lobby. No politician can win without their support.
End of quote


That is not true. Perhaps you would need to qualify that as "No democrat" as like many other interest groups, they seem to have lost a lot of objectivity in their quest for power and aligned themselves with one party. When was the last time a republican running for president got the endorsement of any major jewish lobby group?
Reply #44 Top
There are republican as well as as democratic Jewish lobby groups. Or maybe better stated as Pro-Israeli lobbies. So if u were say running in the GOP primary and the Pro-Israeli lobby didn't like your position they would certainly do something about it.
Reply #46 Top

The only side that has given is the Israelis.
End of quote

The Palestenians are not an "imagined community":they exist and have right to a collective existence as envisaged by the 2 state solution to which YSA at least nominally adheres. The withdrawal from the West Bank that you allude to, perhaps, is not giving. The Intifada left Israel with few options.

Reply #47 Top
Smoothseas
There are republican as well as as democratic Jewish lobby groups. Or maybe better stated as Pro-Israeli lobbies. So if u were say running in the GOP primary and the Pro-Israeli lobby didn't like your position they would certainly do something about it.
End of quote


There are probably democrat and republican KKK lobbies as well - but hardly influential. To be influential, you have to bring something to the table. Sadly, the Jewish (or pro-Israeli) lobbies bring nothing to the republicans. You dont get if you do not give.

Bahu
The Palestenians are not an "imagined community":they exist and have right to a collective existence as envisaged by the 2 state solution to which YSA at least nominally adheres. The withdrawal from the West Bank that you allude to, perhaps, is not giving. The Intifada left Israel with few options.
End of quote


I did not call them "imagined" nor deny their existance. Yet you and others want Israel to "give". I merely pointed out 2 things:
1. They have given
2. The palestinians have not.
So show me the error of both statements. Simply put, that is the big sticking point in your argument, since you cannot.

Reply #48 Top
To be influential, you have to bring something to the table. Sadly, the Jewish (or pro-Israeli) lobbies bring nothing to the republicans. You dont get if you do not give.
End of quote


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,53785,00.html

How about an old article from the Fox "Think Tank" about the issue. Looks like you have misspoken. I can find plenty of information from a wide variety of sources partisan and bipartisan. They bring plenty to the table particularly in an era of the swing state and close elections.


Reply #49 Top
How about an old article from the Fox "Think Tank" about the issue. Looks like you have misspoken. I can find plenty of information from a wide variety of sources partisan and bipartisan. They bring plenty to the table particularly in an era of the swing state and close elections.
End of quote


Pretty good opinion piece. Sounds like someone with an agenda against the lobby is trying to convince others of their paranoia. However, it would be hard to call an opinion piece conclusive evidence. I stand by my opinion.
Reply #50 Top
Sounds like someone with an agenda against the lobby is trying to convince others of their paranoia.
End of quote


Which is fine. There is nothing wrong with opinion pieces. My opinions are based on looking at the opinions of both sides of an issue. The problem is when someone is so one sided that they can't see through the propaganda and look at what is really happening. Israel is certainly one our best allies in the region if not the best. That is very hard to argue against, and that situation alone creates a lot of influence.