Oh, please, that is getting embarassing.

It's the first amendment.

"The phrase separation of church and state is generally traced to a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists, in which he referred to the First Amendment of the United States Constitution as creating a "wall of separation" between church and state. The phrase was then quoted by the United States Supreme Court first in 1878, and then in a series of cases starting in 1947. This led to increased popular and political discussion of the concept."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state

Lula proposed that type of measurement. I just found it handy because I happen to believe that teen pregnancies are bad.




The Muslims don't believe that Jesus is G-d, but neither do the Jews. Following that argument the G-d of the Jews is the G-d of the Muslims, but your god is a different one.

Neither Jews nor Muslims believe that Jesus was involved in the creation of the world.

And neither Jews nor Muslims believe that Jesus is a manifestation of G-d (although Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet, which is perhaps a type of manifestation in some sense).

"Jehova" is a misreading of a Hebrew text of the name of G-d with vowel dots for the word "adonai". "Jehova" is not and never has been His name. "Jehova" is NOT and never has been the god of the "OT".

If you want to argue that Muslims believe in a different god from the Christian god because they don't believe that Jesus was the son of that god, be my guest, and I won't stop you. But realise that Jews believe in that same G-d (Who was not the father of Jesus); which makes the Jewish and the Islamic G-d the same and yours a different one.




Allah is not a "moon god". There were several Semitic moon gods, I think, but Elohim/Allah was not one of them. The Muslim symbol of the crescent goes back to the Muslim conquest of Constantinople. The crescent was the symbol of Byzantium (because of some battle, I don't know, ask an historian) and, from emperor Constantine to the fall of Constantinople, the symbol of the Eastern Roman Empire, a symbol of Christianity. Muslims have used the crescent since then (they saw themselves as the heirs of the empire). The original "symbol" of Islam is the colour green.

So you are telling me that there is one god who has a son, Jesus, and one god, the one the Muslims believe in, who does not. And you are telling me that the god with the crescent symbol is a moon god.

Well, figure that. The G-d Jews believe in doesn't have a son named Jesus, and the god with the crescent symbol is the Christian god. (The only reason Muslims use the crescent is because they believe their god is the same as that Christian "moon god".)

You might want to be more careful with declaring some god a "moon god" based on a symbol. Could turn out it's your own god!

Ishmaels' mother was an Egyptian, but his father was Abraham. And Abraham did NOT teach one of his children to worship the moon, no matter how Egyptian his mother was. The covenant between Abraham and G-d applies to Isaac and Ishmael.

But why you think it applies to you, even though you believe in a god who does not have the same attributes as the god of Isaac and Ishmael, and who is apparently a "moon god" (given that he had, at a time, a crescent symbol), is beyond a simple explanation.

If the moon symbol proves that a god is a moon god, the Muslims shouldn't have stolen the crescent symbol from the Christians; that's all I can say about that particular unlucky event.

El was the Semitic supreme god and, according to Jewish legends, the only real god. I remember an Akkadian (I think) sun god named "Shamash" ("shemesh" is the Hebrew word for "sun"). I don't know much about moon gods.

I don't know who told you that Islam's Allah is a moon god, but he got his info about where the cescent comes from wrong, so I wouldn't believe the rest of his story either, especially when he uses the crescent symbol as an argument.

Not immoral.



Immoral.

The first is between the two and G-d. The second is between the two and another human being (the child).

Debts to G-d can (and will) be forgiven. Debts to other human beings must be paid (or better yet, avoided).

A moral society is one that owes debts only to G-d, not to each other.

:SURPRISED:

Not sure I get that...

Yes I'm telling you that.

The God the Jews believe in were expecting the Messiah to come. They just didn't accept Jesus as the one who did come. The first Christians remember were Jews.

The Christian's God and the Jewish God is one and the same. The only diff is the Jews did not accept the manifestation of God via Jesus when he came. But we can see thru the OT prophets that they will finally accept him and mourn him when he returns and understand he was indeed the Messiah they rejected. They will see his hands and feet and their eyes will be open.

Jehovah God was never referred to as a moon god nor is he the one represented with a cresent. Only the god of the Muslims has the cresent attached to him.

immorality is not defined by having a child out of wedlock. It could mean, they made a mistake or they had a weak moment...but just because one gets pregnant doesn't make her immoral.


Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
im·mor·al Audio Help /ɪˈmɔrəl, ɪˈmɒr-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[i-mawr-uhl, i-mor-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. violating moral principles; not conforming to the patterns of conduct usually accepted or established as consistent with principles of personal and social ethics.
2. licentious or lascivious.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1650–60; im-2 + moral]

—Related forms
im·mor·al·ly, adverb


—Synonyms bad, wicked, dissolute, dissipated, profligate. Immoral, abandoned, depraved describe one who makes no attempt to curb self-indulgence. Immoral, referring to conduct, applies to one who acts contrary to or does not obey or conform to standards of morality; it may also mean licentious and perhaps dissipated. Abandoned, referring to condition, applies to one hopelessly, and usually passively, sunk in wickedness and unrestrained appetites. Depraved, referring to character, applies to one who voluntarily seeks evil and viciousness. Immoral, amoral, nonmoral, and unmoral are sometimes confused with one another. Immoral means not moral and connotes evil or licentious behavior. Amoral, nonmoral, and unmoral, virtually synonymous although the first is by far the most common form, mean utterly lacking in morals (either good or bad), neither moral nor immoral. However, since, in some contexts, there is a stigma implicit in a complete lack of morals, being amoral, nonmoral, or unmoral is sometimes considered just as reprehensible as being immoral.

oh my gosh. You've got to be kidding. Everyone knows that Allah is a moon god. Even National Geographic way back did an article on this. There's a ton of evidence out there about this moon god. Here's a statement from a Yeshua Communications Network site.

The pagan Arabs worshipped the Moon-god Allah by praying toward Mecca several times a day; making a pilgrimage to Mecca; running around the temple of the Moon-god called the Kabah; kissing the black stone; killing an animal in sacrifice to the Moon-god; throwing stones at the devil; fasting for the month which begins and ends with the crescent moon; giving alms to the poor, etc.

The Muslim's claim that Allah is the God of the Bible and that Islam arose from the religion of the prophets and apostles is refuted by solid, overwhelming archeological evidence. Islam is nothing more than a revival of the ancient Moon-god cult. It has taken the symbols, the rites, the ceremonies, and even the name of its god from the ancient pagan religion of the Moon-god. As such, it is sheer idolatry and must be rejected by all those who follow the Torah and Gospel. moongod.htm

The origins of the myth of Allah the Moon-God stem from the works of a few modern Christian writers (more accurately propagandists) and have widely been debunked.

"One of the favourite arguments of the Christian missionaries over many years had been that Allah of the Qur'an was in fact a pagan Arab "Moon-god" from pre-Islamic times. The seeds of this argument were sown by the work of the Danish scholar Ditlef Nielsen, who divided the Semitic deities into a triad of Father-Moon, Mother-Sun and Son-Venus. His ideas (esp., triadic hypothesis) were used uncritically by later scholars who came to excavate many sites in the Near East and consequently assigned astral significance to the deities that they had found. Since 1991 Ditlef Nielsen's views were given a new and unexpected twist by the Christian polemicist Robert Morey. In a series of pamphlets, books and radio programs, he claimed that "Allah" of the Qur'an was nothing but the pagan Arab "Moon-god". To support his views, he presented evidences from the Near East which can be seen in "Appendix C: The Moon God and Archeology" from his book The Islamic Invasion: Confronting The World's Fastest-Growing Religion and it was subsequently reprinted with minor changes as a booklet called The Moon-God Allah In The Archeology Of The Middle East.^[2] It can justifiably be said that this book lies at the heart of missionary propaganda against Islam today. The popularity of Morey's ideas was given a new breath of life by another Christian polemicist Jack T. Chick, who drew a fictionalised racially stereotyped story entitled "Allah Had No Son"."

See http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/moongod.html for one.

A more telling quote is directly from the Quran 41:37 which states "ADORE NOT THE SUN AND THE MOON BUT ADORE ALLAH WHO CREATED THEM if it is Him ye wish to serve."

I am going to guess that you have never read the Quran, perhaps never been inside a Mosque.

Ok, again:

There is no god named "Jehova". The vowels for "Jehova" come from another word which Jews pronounce instead of G-d's name. The vowel dots of that word are therefor added to the name of G-d in Jewish prayer books. For G-d's actual name, the vowels E-O-A _do not make sense_.

Get that into your head, if you want to understand your own G-d!

Second, as I said, the crescent was a _CHRISTIAN SYMBOL_ before the Muslims took Constantinople.

IF the god of the Muslims and the god of the Christians are two separate gods (which is impossible for several reasons, as I explained), it was the CHRISTIAN god with whom the crescent was associated FIRST.

If you tell me that you believe in a god named "Jehova" who has a son named Jesus, I will tell you that I believe in the G-d of Abraham (and Isaac and Ishmael), who is ONE, does NOT have any sons (or daughters), and whose name is not and never has been "Jehova".

Your god Jehova, the god the crescent was associated with before the Muslims took it, is, as you said, probably some other dude.

Oh, that's where it's from. I must admit I was stunned when she mentioned a moon god. I know my Semitic pantheon fairly well, but couldn't remember a "moon god".

I figured that perhaps moon gods have never been very important and are therefore usually unknown (and not worshipped as supreme deity as KFC would have it). I decided to test that hypothesis and asked my (Hindu) flat mate if he knew a Hindu moon god. He said no, but the sun god is important. (He later found a Hindu moon god in Wikipedia.)

It seems unlikely that moon gods make it into the first league of gods. The moon is just something that people don't worship that much, probably because it has to do with the night and most religious people do not think of themselves of creatures of the night (although Christians might think of Muslims that way, but what Paul says about Peter says more about Paul than about Peter).




The Quran is the last place KFC would use to learn about Islam.

After all, there are so many people who just make up very convenient lies about Islam, which are much easier to swallow. And KFC doesn't have a problem with that, because the Christian principle of honesty does apparently not apply to statements about Islam.



Well, I must admit I have never been inside a mosque either. I wanted to go to a mosque in Haifa with fellow students (Arab such), but they usually went home for the weekend and there was thus never an opportunity on Friday.

But I did read the Quran (an English "interpretation") and I did learn SOME little Arabic to understand it better.

So no, KFC, I am not kidding. I am just a lot smarter than some and more honest than others. The lot who told you about the Allah moon god theory are either dumb or dishonest. I doubt they were Muslims.

I am secure enough in my faith. I can study other faiths and I don't need people to tell me lies about other faiths to keep me in mine!

And I don't make statements about other faiths without first learning about them (which is why you rarely find me make statements about Hinduism, for example; I just don't know enough about Hinduism).

I have read the Quran, the Tanakh, the Christian Bible (King James and the original German Luther translation), and, just to make it a little bit interesting, I was (luckily) forced to learn Roman and Greek legends in school (I was on a Latin school) and can therefore see where modern western Christianity gets many of its most Christian principles from (Greek legends... ha!).

Now I learn about Christianity from KFC. It's not the Christianity I have known before, admittedly, but it's fascinating.

For example, I have learned that a god associated with a crescent is a "moon god". And I just happened to know, from Greek and Roman history, that the crescent was the symbol of Byzantium, the capital of the (Christian) Eastern Roman Empire. Hence, according to KFC, the Christian god is a "moon god".

And I have learned about the Christian principle of honesty, which apparently allows making up things about the G-d of Islam whenever necessary or convenient. Plus one is allowed to use those lies in a condescending way. There is no need to repent.

Interesting Christianity, I have learned about here.

Since KFC doesn't know anything about Islam (while I do), I will ignore what she says about it.

And I think I should also ignore what she says about Christianity, for obvious reasons.

A "Christian" who believes that Abraham (Abraham!) would teach his oldest son to worship the moon... Unbelievable!

Take it up with Lula. We just used teen pregnancies as a rough indicator to mesaure immorality.

I agree with you about the issue.

However, a society in which teen pregnancy is rampant seems to feature lots of teenagers with "weak moments", which I don't think is a good sign.

Call me old-fashioned or reactionary if you like, but if I see a society with lots of unprepared mothers (and hopefully fathers who didn't run away!) I think that there is something wrong with that society.

What's wrong with the Bible Belt, KFC?

Lula posts:

God through His revealed religion of Christianity teaches moral absolutes of right from wrong, good from evil. Atheistic/secular humanism teaches that man can make up his own mind about what is right and what is wrong and what is good and what is evil.

These kinds of crimes weren't happening in schools throughout the US before the 1960s when prayer, God and Christian principles were kicked out of public (givernment) educational system.

We must ask ourselves why the radical change in societal behavior. In order to understand what happened to precipitate such widespread radical change in the way of life and in the educational system we must examine the cultural and sexual reforms that were accelerated in the 1960s as a result of these Supreme Court decisions.

I see it as a major philosophical shift in moral attitudes and mores reshaped society into a secular humanist culture in which faith in Almighty God shifted to faith in man, science and education. Standards, constraints and morality were still necessary, --- but according the US SUpreme Court decision, by taking the Ten Commandments out of school, not htose imposed by God or by the Holy Bible. Secular humanist educators supplied their own and a bias toward secular humanism developed within the broad structure of education.

Secular humanist educators believe the proper role for schools is to change, create or clarify student's values especially in the area of sexuality. Using values clarification and situational ethics, they teach children to discard the old, traditional values from family and church they have come to school with and find and try new ones.

How many of you know that Planned Parenthood guidelines for classroom sex instruction insist that instruction on human sexuality must be morally neutral and studied without reference to moral absolutes?

KFC POSTS: #7

Leauki posts: #9

I believe there is but one God..there can be but one God because God, being Supreme and Infinite cannot have an equal.

Leauki posts:

There is but one God. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. While we may all believe in the one true God our worship of Him is where the differences lie.

God created all mankind in His image and likeness so that they may know love and serve Him and be with Him in eternity. "All" includes Muslims.

Muslims worship the one God (they call Allah) according to the Qur'anic teachings of Islam, a religious attitude developed by self-named Muhammed in 610.

The followers of Muhammad's Qu'ranic Islam read his words and imitate his actions which leads to an expression of faith (violence and bloodshed) quite different from Christianity's expression of faith. Islam is a mixture of truth and error. Muslims in their belief of Islam submit to God as far as believing He is the One God; He is the Creator; He is most forgiving and merciful, etc. This part is God's revealed truth. All the rest---having to do with Muhammad and his false Qur'anic teachings is error and false doctrine.

The bigger question that faith and right reason beckons us to ask are: Is the one God pleased with the worship of Muslims or do they worship falsely and in vain? Does God doesn't really care how He's worshipped or whether or not He's worshipped at all. I'd say, of course He does.

Now, to bring this back to the focus of my article, does Almighty God care whether or not He's invited into schools by prayer?

Yes.




That is correct. So you do not, in fact, believe that Allah and the Christian god are two different entities? And KFC spoke for herself, but not you?




I have problems thinking of a perfect and forgiving being who cares about minutiae.

I doubt whether He does. Remember the Torah was given to the Jews so the Jews follow its laws, not as instructions to all of humanity. Christianity says that the new covenant applies to all humanity, but that's really a big change.

Muhammed's Islam (and you refer to it correctly as "Quranic Islam" since the word "Islam" merely means "submission [to G-d]"), like Judaism, does not claim that it is the only acceptable way to worship.

Of the Abrahamic religions only Christianity has traditionally made such claims.




No. He does not. He loves everyone equally and certainly would not refuse to help kids in a school who don't pray because they are not allowed to.

And I doubt whether he would support de-secularisation, given how His children cannot agree which way to pray is the right one and constantly fight over it.

How else would you teach it without teaching one religion or another?

It's up to the parents to teach their children the morality of sexual intercourse, not the government. If the parents refuse to do it and demand that state schools do it instead, something is wrong with society, and it's not the school system.

If I had kids (and I don't), I would absolutely send them to Hebrew school (think "Sunday school") in a conservative or liberal synagogue so that they learn what _I_ think is the correct morality.

But I certainly wouldn't want them to be taught somebody else's religion's values in a state school.

And if somebody managed to convince the government to teach, say, Muslim family values in state schools, including the perhaps bad treatment of women that seems to be so common in modern so-called "Islam", I would, if I can afford it, send my kids to a public school affiliated with a religion more to my liking or no religion at all.

(I chose "Islam" here not because I dislike it but because it is perhaps for my American Christian readers the best example of an imposed religion they would not want to see in state schools.)

"Planned Parenthood" is a good thing to teach in state schools. Whether it should be applied is a question I don't want the government to decide.

I would want my kids to know about condoms and the pill and how to use them.

But I would not want my kids to be taught by the government whether it is moral to use them or not.

And I certainly would not want them to be taught that it is wrong to use condoms INSTEAD of being taught how to use them.

QFT.

But then, they're going to say, "You two are just saying that because you haven't spawned yet! Your opinion doesn't count until you breed!"

you're forgetting something Leauki....his mother was Egyptian. He was sent away with his mother. His geneology is mentioned in scripture and associated with Arab lands. He did not worship the same as Isaac. They went separate ways starting when Ishmael was a teenager.

In fact it says in Gen 21:21 that Ismael "dwelt in the wilderness of Paran and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt."

I'd have to say that Abraham's influence was very little on Ishmael. This wilderness of Paran was the NE part of the Sinai penisula.

As far as the crescent being associated with the Eastern Church I have never heard of that. If that's true, which seems hard to believe, but if so...why is the crescent moon always in modern times associated with Islam? I mean isn't proof in the pudding?

Two things Leauki

1. I know quite a bit about Islam. I try to use former Muslim sources and I have at least two good books on the subject of Islam from two former Muslims. The Dean of Students at my son's Christian College (largest Christian College in the world) is Ergun Caner. Ever hear of him? Do a google search. Big Christian now but was a big Muslim then. Has been rejected by his father and family for converting to Christianity.

2. What are the obvious reasons? Not obvious to me.  :p 

Gee... this is getting ennoying. I told you. The connection to Islam is due to the Turks conquering Constantinople.




Ishmael was 14 when he left. At the time and in the region that was not exactly "teenager" in the sense of today. He was a young man. Abraham taught him everything until he was that grown man. And G-d promised He would look after him afterwards and make him into a great nation.

Ishmael also returned for the burial of Abraham.

If you think Ishmael started worshipping the moon after growing up in Abraham's household, you are ignoring that G-d Himself said the covenant was for both Ishmael and Isaac (hence both children were circumcised) and that there is is historic evidence that many Arabs practiced a monotheistic faith based on Abraham's teachings.

Ishmael was also visited by an angel in the desert, which is hardly something G-d would do for a moon-worshipper.

It was also Sarah who wanted to get rid of Ishmael, not Abraham. Abraham only agreed to send Ishmael away when G-d promised that He would protect him.

Where is a shred of evidence that Ishmael or his descendants gave up the faith of Abraham?




No. You don't. You didn't even know where the symbol of Islam (the crescent) came from and that the god of Islam is not a "moon god".

You simply don't know much about Islam.

If somebody claimed that the Christian god is a wood god and didn't know that the cross is a Christian symbol because Jesus was (allegedly) crucified, you would hardly accept that that somebody would "know quite a bit about Christianity".



You didn't know that the crescent was once a Christian symbol and you believe that Abraham's son worshipped the moon. You are NOT the type of person I would ask to teach me Christianity.

Judging from your systematic way of learning false facts about Islam and your dismissal of Abraham's ability to educate, I cannot be sure that what you know about Christianity is so reliable.

Perhaps the Ex-Muslims you speak of didn't know that much about Islamn either? Or they lied to you? It was easy to debunk what you said here about Islam.

Ergun Mehmet Caner and his brother Emir Fethi Caner, the co-authors of Unveiling Islam, have been widely criticized for their hate speech by Christians and Muslims alike. Here is a quotation from an article published at the Mainstream Baptist website:

"Ethics Daily has published a story about the fuel that Southern Baptist professor Ergun Caner is pouring on the fire of Middle East conflict. Elie Haddad, provost of Arab Baptist Theological Seminary in Beirut, demonstrated genuine Christian maturity in his response:

"Having 90 refugees at our seminary in Mansourieh, 760 refugees in our school in west Beirut, thousands upon thousands of refugees all around us living in miserable conditions, our fuel, medical, food, and hygiene supplies getting scarce, and having no prospect of a quick resolution to the problem, I really am not in a frame of mind to respond to such remarks," Haddad said in an e-mail to EthicsDaily.com."

If Ergun Caner is the author of one of the two books on Islam that you say that you have read, then it is no wonder that you think the way the way that you do.

If someone asked you the best way to learn about Christianity, would you direct them to read a book by an ex-Christian? Particuarly by an ex-Christian who was known for criticizing humanitarian efforts towards Christians?

By the way, Ergun Caner's video entitled "Ergun Caner gets tasered" begins with him saying "I am a total Nimrod." See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz3v8RIcaYA

That is not the quality that I would look for in someone who was going to teach my children.

don't just tell me, show me some historical data backing this up. So you're saying that the Turks took the Christian symbol (which I've not seen anywhere) of the crescent moon as their own? I can tell you there is no Christian symbol of the moon in scripture.



Why not? Think Solomon the son of David. Son of King David...no less turned his head following the gods of his many wives. He took wives outside of the faith and they influenced him and turned him away from God. Ishmael married an Egyptian. This went against God. This was not something God wanted. Egypt was the enemy of Israel. God warned his people to not go into Egypt which represented the world. That's why careful care was taken to find a wife for Isaac. His future wife would have the same God as his father Abraham. So a servant was sent to a far country in search of her. We don't see this with Ishmael.

Besides all that.... you say Ishmael was part of the covenant? No.... he was not. You're getting wrong information Leauki. Yes God blessed him because he came from the loins of Abraham. Yes, he was circumcised but so weren't all servants and household members in Abraham's home.

"God said, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son indeed and you shall call his name Isaac and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlsting covenant and with his seed after him.

And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget (Arabs) and I will make him a great nation. BUT my covenant will I establish with Isaac which Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year. Gen 17:19-21"

also if you go to Gen 22 you'd read in the famous sacrificing Isaac chapter:

God said to Abraham "take now your son your only son Isaac whom you love and get you into the land of Moriah and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountins which I will tell you."

why did God call Isaac Abraham's only son?



No I never heard that and will search that one out. Sounds bizzare to me. I never said Abraham's son worshipped the moon. I said Islam's God Allah is the Moon God that went way back before Mohammed. You can do a search yourself and look this up and they DO HAVE a crescent on their mosques so again....they have their hand in the cookie jar so to speak.

It's kind of weird you're telling me they have no connection to a moon god of old yet they have half moons on their temples even as we speak.



No that's not it. Not easy at all. I've just shown you using scripture that what you believe to be true is NOT true afterall is it?

Larry,

I've seen Caner in person. He's a comic so to speak. He uses humor when he speaks. He's an attraction for the kids. They never sleep when he speaks. Of course he's going to have his critics. Who doesn't? Sit down and listen to him first before you judge him.

Caner isn't actually my favorite person as far as personality is concerned and I don't always agree with him theologically. He tends to be brutally honest for one thing which isn't all that bad but with not with much tact and pretty much just says it like it is. Some really like that and others wince a bit liie me although I too tend to be brutally honest as well.

BTW I do not believe there is such a thing as an Ex-Christian. It's just not something true Christianity teaches. It's not a biblical concept at all. You can be an ex-Catholic, an ex-Mormon or ex-JW and yes, I would consider what they have to say as they were insiders and would know more than someone who was not an insider.

Well..yes and no...an ex Christian would be someone who was baptized in the Christian faith and then apostazies from the faith. No, as in once one is baptized into the faith, that baptism can never be lost or erased.

Back to the original article, God cannot be kicked out of anywhere.  God is still present whether it is "permitted" or not.  That being said I don't think anyone has the right to force their religious beliefs or non-religious beliefs on anyone else in school.  Teach your kids religion at home or at church or while your driving them to school.  Leave it out of the schools.  If it matters that much to you that your kids pray in school, spend the money to send your kids to a private religous school.