The game is flawed in that it rewards the use of as few unit-types as possible (which is further backed up by how the technology tree research options are set up).

A good, fun RTS has you use all the units at your disposal otherwise what's the point of including them? There are just too few dominant strategies in this game that don't make online play any fun as you see the same thing over and over again.

Spam is not fun. People who do it are not fun to play with, and therefore drive other people off to stay within the SP realm who don't want to have to resort to cheap, mind-numbing tactics that others use in order to win.

When you play online, you can't win doing things your way. You have to win the competitively accepted way. For some people, this is not what they call fun. For others who live on the thrill of beating other human players they might not care but those who like winning using their own play-style its not ideal.

As for my credentials, apart from being a long-time gamer and modder I have studied game design at university with real-time strategy games being one of our focus topics. I got a distinction in this subject.

I think I would know what makes a good game. Spam and single/few-unit tactics does not make a good game.

@ Phazon and others with the same point of view.(but mostly at phazon)

"The game is flawed in that it rewards the use of as few unit-types as possible"

Im not going to question any credentials you might have with games, but you guys are clearly misunderstanding HOW to play this game. Having the fewest unit types is the worst fleet, no questions asked. The MORE unit types you have, the better. RTS games will always have spammers who do what you most hate, but you should be thinking of a way to beat them rather then whine about how the way other ppl play make the game not fun for you.

"A good, fun RTS has you use all the units at your disposal"

Maybe this is your problem, maybe YOU spam 1 unit and clearly dont have fun doin it, try actually building a fleet and deciding how many of each ship you should have based on your spying capabilities of the enemy; I find that to be fun.

"to resort to cheap, mind-numbing tactics that others use in order to win."

If you get beat by a "mind-numbing tactic", then you clearly are really bad at this game. Please stick to SP and beat the AI who are programmed to be medicre at best, if thats what you enjoy then.....


"When you play online, you can't win doing things your way"

What kind of statement is this? There would be no point of playing games at all if everyone could win doing it their own way. The point of multiplayer is to strive to find the best way to defeat your opponent, this is not Burger King, you can't have it your way and win, and thats not just for games, thats life.

"You have to win the competitively accepted way. For some people, this is not what they call fun"

If this is what you think than you should have never even gone online in the first place. It is quite obvious that playing a COMPETITIVE game with other people requires YOU to be competitive.

I was just going to comment on the original subject for a change. I appreciate the MP vs SP conversations, but they don't really aid the overall purpose for this forum. I have played both MP and SP games and both are very different creatures. But how that pertains to the TEC is a matter of opinion. That being said, here is mine.

The TEC are underpowered when it comes to the abilities and overall strength of their ships. However, I am inclined to believe that they do have the most robust economy and balanced set of abilities in the game. The TEC are not a massive fleet type of army. If your goal is to mass a single fleet and beat the stuffing out of everyone who crosses your path, then you may need to pick another side. I have found that the key to a successful campaign is not massing fleets but instead hit and run raids against undefended enemy colonies. For people who like massing their forces, this is a major obstacle that they/you face. One of my favorite tactics is a single capital ship and a team of LRM/s and Flaks. This is very effective if you use a Sova and turn on embargo or go for the dreadnaught and blow the stuffing out of their outpost (very nice against asteroids). You can also build teams of scouts to attack enemy construction vehicles and prevent enemy colonies from even getting going. They hate this tactic. Also, you can build small fleets of ships for suicide runs against enemy colonies and resource production centers. These typically don't have capital ships and you intend for them to be shot to hell. Once you send them in, let them go and say goodbye (they are your opponents problem now). Now comes the really nasty part, put all of these strategies together at the same time. It can get really fast paced playing as a TEC commander, and you can't look for the one hit kill that most players are looking for. This is an Ali type of game (float like a butterfly, sting like a bee). To play TEC you have to be creative and very good at multiple attacks on your enemy at the same time. Your enemy may be relying on a large fleet to put you down. Don't let him bring all of his ships together. Keep him moving small numbers in multiple locations.

The TEC are exceptionally weak in the early game before their economy has been built up. They also suffer on small maps where they land in a poor resource position early in the game. One thing that I have noticed is that TEC players tend to get very attached to their ships and this tends to be a major problem for their play style. My suggestion for learning to play TEC well is don't look for short games and don't look for large fleet engagements. Play for attrition, I have had several people have to leave because the game just went on for too long. In my book, that is still a win!

I like how mp supporters claim the game is balanced and diverse, then accidentally admit something like "One of my favorite tactics is a single capital ship and a team of LRM/s and Flaks...". Yes, we know. This is everyone's favorite tactic because it has NO COUNTER beyond HCs or more LRMs. Basic frigates have no use. Carriers have no use. Flak is only necessary in very small numbers to completely hard counter all strike craft. Half the cap ships will lose you the game if you take them first. Half the researches give very little benefit for their cost. If this is diversity and balance, then you guys can keep it. I'll be playing other RTS's mp.

On topic: Balancing TEC is pointless until the overall game is balanced. Once every unit type and research is viable in a competitive 1v1, then we can talk about fixing a specific race.

I understand where you're coming from Marlowe, but I still think you'd find a bigger challenge if you went online. There also social aspects to playing online. I hope you'll give it a chance. Not everyone out there is a prepubescent e-jerk trying to prove that they have the biggest e-penis, generously dispensing taunts; there are also mature adults who play the game.

That's true, but there is much, much more to the strategy than merely choosing what ships to build. Where and when should I attack? Should I prepare to get attacked? Should I invest in improving my economy? Should I do military research or would it be better to have more ships? Should I send my fleet to help my teammate and make myself vulnerable?

What I find ironic is that you're saying that there's more strategy to playing a dumb and unimaginative AI than there is to playing against human opponents online. The reason why your diverse fleet strategy works so well is precisely because the AI is dumb. (This isn't a knock on Sins; I've never seen a strategy game where the AI wasn't dumb, whether it's Civilization, Sins, Empire Deluxe, or Alpha Centauri; computers just can't simulate the strategic intelligence of a human.)



They don't take as long as you think and most games are decided within an hour-and-a-half. Your average 3v3 game on the large random single star map normally doesn't last much longer than an hour-and-a-half. Is that amount of time so unreasonable?

I dunno. I think TEC are okay right now. I'd like to see a few tweaks, but really, I can't see any big issues.

You can get LRMs quickly and spam them and have a very solid fleet fast. You can switch to flak fast. You can get carriers fast. You can rush Kodiaks. You can Trade spam. You have the hardcore units in the game with fully teched up Kodiaks -- I mean, Kodiaks are HARD to kill when you've got their hullpoints up and shields up and armor up and their weapons up...

TEC are weakest mid game vs Advent and Illumns and then weak against Vas and RA. I'm not a big fan of the end game techs for any of the races, but I do think that a skilled TEC player can beat an RA player if his econ is up. TEC have cheap, solid units. Every unit is middling -- none are amazing, but all are useful, which is more important. They have the best Capital Ship in the game imo with the Dreadnought -- nothing like burning down worlds to actually WIN a game. And again, TEC tech up nice and face and get TOUGH to kill. I mean, Kodiaks + Repair Cruisers + Command Cruisers? Pul-ease.

As for tactics, that's another thread. I think most people wouldn't know a tactic if it punched them in the balls.

@ablsloan
Carriers are useless.....Properly used carriers are the most effective unit of TEC or Advent. I stress properly micro'd strike groups are the deadliest and hard to kill units in the game.

Absolutely. Add in a pirate raids ( bought and paid for with your HUGE economy ), and insurgency, and they're too busy stomping flies to notice your fleet. Each one by itself isn't hard to stop, but three or four at once ? Death of a thousand cuts...

I think saying TEC needs powering up is premature. Wait for the Marza long range attack ability to be fixed and other fixes before jumping the gun.

Other posters already hit this perfectly, but TEC is meant to take losses and build replacements fast with their strong economy. Just comparing units and not their infrastructure or economy strengths is ignoring crucial components to the game I think.

I think your right NomadWarriorSoul. The Hoshiko's repair ability being AOE would be nice. The other races get a cruiser that has an AOE effect. 8)

If I could play multiplayer SINS, I'd play EVE online instead!!!

Oh... and the secret to winning as TECH is to take planets fast and KEEP taking them! Don't bother stopping at choke-points, just use them as pivot-points! Just pack your outer planets full of defenses to scare away the AI players)...

The constant attacking will gain you allies pretty fast, and when you have half the galaxy to yourself, park your fleets on their homeworlds send your allies to attack the pirate base in the center where they will wipe each other out!

Then invade them all at once to cripple their production base (knocking out any Phase gates first)...

I've only played sp so far, but I usually play on unfair mode versus 5+ locked opponents. I'm sure mp is still harder than that, but it's not the style of game I'm looking for, I like the huge drawn out games that take weeks to complete.

I also like rp-ish fleet building. I think it's fun to construct my fleets like the US Navy does carrier groups. I know carrier caps suck compared to battleships and battlecruisers but I like the *idea* of carrier ships. I also enjoy the aesthetic part of the game, in sp I restart the game over and over til I get a red sun, and I always play advent because the radiance battleship and halcyon carrier are so cool looking with graphics turned to the highest settings. Shiny!

To min/max for the most efficient game play is your perogative in MP. Doing a close up on my pretty caps to watch all the energy weapons flying around is mine. ;p