I Told You This was Gonna Happen

This is from the NY Times. I told you guys that this would happen and was politely told that I didn't know what I was talking about.


RELIGION
Group of Bishops Using Influence to Oppose Kerry
By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK
and LAURIE GOODSTEIN

Published: October 12, 2004


ENVER, Oct. 9 - For Archbishop Charles J. Chaput, the highest-ranking Roman Catholic prelate in Colorado, there is only one way for a faithful Catholic to vote in this presidential election, for President Bush and against Senator John Kerry.

"The church says abortion is a foundational issue,'' the archbishop explained to a group of Catholic college students gathered in a sports bar here in this swing state on Friday night. He stopped short of telling them whom to vote for, but he reminded them of Mr. Kerry's support for abortion rights. And he pointed out the potential impact his re-election could have on Roe v. Wade.

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"Supreme Court cases can be overturned, right?" he asked.

Archbishop Chaput, who has never explicitly endorsed a candidate, is part of a group of bishops intent on throwing the weight of the church into the elections.

Galvanized by battles against same-sex marriage and stem cell research and alarmed at the prospect of a President Kerry - who is Catholic but supports abortion rights - these bishops and like-minded Catholic groups are blanketing churches with guides identifying abortion, gay marriage and the stem cell debate as among a handful of "non-negotiable issues."

To the dismay of liberal Catholics and some other bishops, traditional church concerns about the death penalty or war are often not mentioned.

Archbishop Chaput has discussed Catholic priorities in the election in 14 of his 28 columns in the free diocesan newspaper this year. His archdiocese has organized voter registration drives in more than 40 of the largest parishes in the state and sent voter guides to churches around the state. Many have committees to help turn out voters and are distributing applications for absentee ballots.

In an interview in his residence here, Archbishop Chaput said a vote for a candidate like Mr. Kerry who supports abortion rights or embryonic stem cell research would be a sin that must be confessed before receiving Communion.

"If you vote this way, are you cooperating in evil?" he asked. "And if you know you are cooperating in evil, should you go to confession? The answer is yes."

The efforts of Archbishop Chaput and his allies are converging with a concerted drive for conservative Catholic voters by the Bush campaign. It has spent four years cultivating Catholic leaders, organizing more than 50,000 volunteers and hiring a corps of paid staff members to increase Catholic turnout. The campaign is pushing to break the traditional allegiance of Catholic voters to the Democratic Party, an affiliation that began to crumble with Ronald Reagan 24 years ago.

Catholics make up about a quarter of the electorate, and many conservative Catholics are concentrated in swing states, pollsters say. Conservatives organizers say they are working hard because the next president is quite likely to name at least one new Supreme Court justice.

Catholic prelates have publicly clashed with Catholic Democrats like former Gov. Mario M. Cuomo of New York and Geraldine A. Ferraro, the former representative and vice-presidential candidate.

But never before have so many bishops so explicitly warned Catholics so close to an election that to vote a certain way was to commit a sin.

Less than two weeks ago, Archbishop Raymond L. Burke of St. Louis issued just such a statement. Bishop Michael J. Sheridan of Colorado Springs and Archbishop John J. Myers of Newark have both recently declared that the obligation to oppose abortion outweighs any other issue.

In theological terms, these bishops and the voter guides argue that abortion and the destruction of embryos are categorically wrong under church doctrine. War and even the death penalty can in certain circumstances be justified.

But it is impossible to know how many bishops share this view, and there is resistance from a sizable wing of the church that argues that voting solely on abortion slights Catholic teaching on a range of other issues, including war, poverty, the environment and immigration.

Liberal Catholics contend that the church has traditionally left weighing the issues to the individual conscience. Late in the campaign, these Catholics have begun to mount a counterattack, belatedly and with far fewer resources.

In diocesan newspapers in Ohio, Pennsylvania and West Virginia, they are buying advertisements with the slogan "Life Does Not End at Birth." Organizers of the campaign say it is supported by 200 Catholic organizations, among them orders of nuns and brothers.



End of quote
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7,602 views 23 replies
Reply #1 Top
Well, drmiler, what exactly "happened" here? The catholic church dared to put their religious convictions AHEAD of their historical allegiance to the Democratic Party? SHAME on them for putting their CORE BELIEFS ahead of political partisanship!

I know that this sort of thing is completely FOREIGN to the Democrats. After all, your nominee for President changes his position on virtually EVERY topic based on the group of people he is speaking to. Let me see, is John Kerry on his 8th or 9th position on Iraq now? I lost count. And pony boy John Edwards in not any better. Nailing down Kerry and Edwards is like watching them trying to pee against the wind.........in the end they just get all wet and people either laugh at them or just walk away shaking their heads.

I APPLAUD the Catholic Church for FINALLY taking a stand against legalized abortion and putting aside partisan politics to practice what they preach. It's long overdue. I'm sure it really ticks off you Democrats.

Now all we have to do is start working on our black brothers and sisters in the USA. They are STILL under the mistaken belief that it's the DEMOCRATIC PARTY who supports them and is their savior. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Reply #2 Top
wasn't there something about non-profit status and tax exemption for religious organizations? I can't remember....
Reply #3 Top

Reply #2 By: xtine - 10/13/2004 4:50:43 PM
wasn't there something about non-profit status and tax exemption for religious organizations? I can't remember....


Yes as a matter of fact there was. And what they're doing now is not illegal in any sense of the word.
Reply #4 Top

Reply #2 By: xtine - 10/13/2004 4:50:43 PM
wasn't there something about non-profit status and tax exemption for religious organizations? I can't remember....


If there was anything illegal about it the NY Times would be one of the FIRST to scream about it!
Reply #5 Top
and there is resistance from a sizable wing of the church that argues that voting solely on abortion slights Catholic teaching on a range of other issues, including war, poverty, the environment and immigration.


Because the Chruch believes that Abortion is murder, that issue takes presidence over just about any other in this election...
Also, the Catholic Church is not a 'democracy' where the members vote on what the church holds as its values... Either you go along with what the chruch teaches, or you are not a catholic...

Of course, if your name is John F. Kerry, the Catholic religion is nothing more than a tool with which to garner votes...
Its teachings are irrelevant to him, and thats why you see such 'opposition' from these bishops...

'My faith plays a huge role in my life today, always has...'

I think not.
Reply #6 Top
Check this also: Link

Reply #7 Top
Well, I think the law is that religious leaders can't endorse specific candidates, if they want to keep non-profit status. These conservative bishops who are pushing that line, but no more than some protestant churches have been doing for years. While a group of conservative bishops support Kerry, most catholics support Kerry, and I think it's likely that most Catholic priests and perhaps bishops plan to vote for Kerry. Most Catholics care a lot about fighting poverty, and their positions on how to do that are much closer to Kerry's views.
Reply #8 Top
While a group of conservative bishops support Kerry, most catholics support Kerry, and I think it's likely that most Catholic priests and perhaps bishops plan to vote for Kerry.


Not if you actually take the time and step inside a Catholic church. Cause if you did step inside with Pro-Kerry stuff on, you would be martyred in a heartbeat.

- Grim X
Reply #9 Top
It makes sense to me. If abortion is murder to them, it'd be inhumane for them to support it any way. I'm sure if Kerry were in favor of legalizing rape, the same groups that support Kerry now wouldn't support him anymore, even if they agreed with him on many other issues.
Reply #10 Top

Reply #7 By: blogic - 10/13/2004 6:24:14 PM
Well, I think the law is that religious leaders can't endorse specific candidates, if they want to keep non-profit status. These conservative bishops who are pushing that line, but no more than some protestant churches have been doing for years. While a group of conservative bishops support Kerry, most catholics support Kerry, and I think it's likely that most Catholic priests and perhaps bishops plan to vote for Kerry. Most Catholics care a lot about fighting poverty, and their positions on how to do that are much closer to Kerry's views.


You are sooooooo wrong! And they can push at that law and bend it all they want. As long as they don't break it. Catholics care MORE about abortion than they do poverty!
Reply #11 Top
Well, I can't claim to know how priests will actually vote, but neither can you. And you already know that these bishops weren't representative of most American bishops when they wanted to deny communion to pro-choice candidates. There's absolutely no reason to think they're more representative in their support of Bush.

Most Catholics will support Kerry, just as they did Gore. Also, polls show that a large majority of American Catholics think the Church should not be trying to influence how Catholics vote, or the political positions of candidates.
Reply #12 Top
Most Catholics will support Kerry, just as they did Gore. Also, polls show that a large majority of American Catholics think the Church should not be trying to influence how Catholics vote, or the political positions of candidates.


Do I really need a couple of Catholic Churches around here to answer that question?

Okay let me put it this way, as being a former Catholic, I know what the Catholic crowd thinks and acts, just because they supported JF Kennedy does not mean the will support JFK the lesser. For one, Abortion IS A HUGE issue with Catholics today back when JFK the Greater ran Abortion was illegal (or in limbo) and Roe V Wade had not happen yet.

If the Priest does not influence them than they would still be voting against Kerry, for one a lot of Families are against the whole abortion thing regardless of what a Priest or Bishop preaches and unless Kerry pulls a trick out of his arse that says otherwise, only your Fringe Catholics will support Kerry (Fringe Catholic being one who supports Abortion, Homosexuality, etc. beliefs that are against the Mainstay Catholics).

Just because Bishops give communion to Pro-Choice people does not mean they are for them, on the contrary they just don't want a Catholic to die without receiving Communion while the others on the other hand believe one should have their sins absolved before receiving communion.

So I figure I would know more about Catholics after being a Catholic for 17/18 years out my 23 years of existence (plus my Mom has been Catholic all her life) than somebody claiming to think they know something about Catholics.

How about that or is there some logic that says you know more about Catholics than I do, hmm?

- Grim X
Reply #13 Top
As long as the Pope doesn't start ex-communicating people who vote for Kerry, I think the church is well within its rights. Hell, they'd be within their rights if the DID excommunicate those types of folks.

But any church should have a right to take a stand on issues without their tax-exempt status being threatened.
My reasoning is this: despite my atheist "status" now, I was raised in small town churches, my dad was a minister. Most of the money that these churches take in (even small catholic ones) is money from the people who attend church. This is money from their personal income, so that money has already been taxed. Taxing churches would be a heinous example of double taxing income, and I just can't go with that idea. YES! A LIBERAL SAYS NO TO A TAX! PUT THIS ONE ON YOUR CALENDARS, FOLKS!
Reply #14 Top
Ah, I dunno, they excommunicated Henry VIII and he just made his own church

They excommunicated Martin Luther, too -- and he made a whole bunch of churches

Reply #15 Top
"It's the Adventures of Martin Luther...

Now in Reform-O-Vision (or Scope need to watch it again)!!"



'Meaning of Life' what a great movie that is.

- Grim X
Reply #16 Top
Reply #15 By: Myrrander - 10/13/2004 8:15:04 PM
Ah, I dunno, they excommunicated Henry VIII and he just made his own church

They excommunicated Martin Luther, too -- and he made a whole bunch of churches


Shhhhh, not so loud.

The Kerry Camp and the DNC may have plans to start a "Jones style Church" soon. So all you Kool-Aid drinkers out there watch out how you drink it, if Kerry loses the election.

PS: I Know, I'm guilty of a very sick joke. But think about it. MUHAAHAAA, MUHAAHAAA
Reply #17 Top
I don't think I really think my argument depends on anyone accepting my logic. I cited the voting results from 2000, and polls done this year, and I included links so you could verify my assertions. Don't argue with me, argue with Catholic voters. Catholics supported Gore over Bush and an overwhelming majority of Catholics oppose Church involvement in how Catholics vote and the positions Catholic candidates take.
Reply #18 Top
Just because they supported Gore does not mean they will support Kerry, for one Gore was not Catholic Kerry is.

So it makes a mighty difference to Catholics when one of their own who is supposed to know better does the wrong thing.

- Grim X
Reply #19 Top
But its not just abortion supporters, Chaput also believes that people who gossip should not receive communion.

From the Rocky Mountain News:

"Chaput does not mention abortion as he has in previous columns. But he calls on all persons who deny church teachings in general to rekindle "a deeper devotion to confession" and that Communion should not be received by those who sin "by theft, lying, adultery, pride, gossip, anger, envy, callousness to the poor, pornography or indifference."

IG
Reply #20 Top
To the dismay of liberal Catholics and some other bishops, traditional church concerns about the death penalty or war are often not mentioned.
Great point. With this blatant violation of the separation clause, the Catholic Church should lose its tax exmption in the Colorado diocese. 
Reply #21 Top
"Im a devout catholic and i personally think abortion is a sin worthy of eternal damnation, but if YOU want to have one, its ok with me."
But for eternal damnation that's Kerry's view too.
So it makes a mighty difference to Catholics when one of their own who is supposed to know better does the wrong thing.
My, you are indeed so grim!
Reply #22 Top



Reply #21 By: stevendedalus - 10/14/2004 2:10:01 PM
To the dismay of liberal Catholics and some other bishops, traditional church concerns about the death penalty or war are often not mentioned.
Great point. With this blatant violation of the separation clause, the Catholic Church should lose its tax exmption in the Colorado diocese.


And just how is this a violation of the separation clause? It's NOT! They aren't saying one way or the other who to vote for! Read it again. Here let me help
Galvanized by battles against same-sex marriage and stem cell research and alarmed at the prospect of a President Kerry - who is Catholic but supports abortion rights - these bishops and like-minded Catholic groups are blanketing churches with guides identifying abortion, gay marriage and the stem cell debate as among a handful of "non-negotiable issues."
If they were doing something actually illegal don't you think the Kerry campaign would be ALL over this?


So it makes a mighty difference to Catholics when one of their own who is supposed to know better does the wrong thing.


My, you are indeed so grim!


Grim? Maybe. But alas all to true

Reply #23 Top
Reply By: blogicPosted: Thursday, October 14, 2004I don't think I really think my argument depends on anyone accepting my logic. I cited the voting results from 2000, and polls done this year, and I included links so you could verify my assertions. Don't argue with me, argue with Catholic voters. Catholics supported Gore over Bush and an overwhelming majority of Catholics oppose Church involvement in how Catholics vote and the positions Catholic candidates take


Here's a recent poll on Catholics:


In short, while claiming a Catholic heritage, he has used every opportunity to undermine Catholic values. This is why Kerry is trailing Bush among Catholics 53 percent to 36 percent. .

Of course when it's convenient for Kerry to cite the very faith he so often disdains, he has no problem doing so.