Romans 1:7 -to all who are beloved of God in Rome. These are the believers in G-D similar to those who verbally made the covenant of faith at Mount Sinai.

Yes, I agree KFC, the Bible does say it's an abomination. This letter again was written to the BELIEVERS not to everyone there in Corinth.



The error of who? Error of a brother (ie another believer in the Bible).

Maso, thank you for re-affirming my point (if I may say so).

Upon further perusal of the Internet, I found a website that has a discussion going on much like this one.  It quotes and explains what is written in the bible because of a similar question asked, "what does the bible say about Gay".  It gives what the Anti and Pro views would be about what the bible says.  The comments at the end, people's views are just as conflicted as ours, depending on what each individual believes.  It is an interesting read.

I can't copy and paste with mozilla, didn't set it up to do that yet, a pain, so I'll just write in the website here,  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/3205727.stm

 

I guess two readers comments stood out to me.  Phumlani of South Africa and Wyatt Borderwyk of US.  Phumlani says that we each behave the way we do because of what the bible says, and that what the bible says is open for (or to) interpretation(s), depending on what each of us want and what we believe, our circumstances dictates (the end results of what we do or believe).

 

Wyatt said that "this argument is as touch as evolution".  So true!  He also said there is no wrong or right answer, we can only 'interpret' (again that word) it as best we can and hope that our interpretation is the right one!  We all want it to be!   I firmly believe that because the bible has been interpreted by man, re-written to suit what ever the cause is, the truth is not fully within, not at all times.  It does reassure me when I read it, and comforts me.  But I can't accept everything as it states literally, not all the time.  The church from the beginning, or should I say, from its beginning have done and written things to suit itself and what its beliefs are, and what they espect their followers to do, and the laws to obey, not so much God's law, but their laws.  They write the bible, or re-write the bible to suit themselves, so 60 percent of it is true, the rest, made up of man-made rules! That's my views and will not be suitable or acceptable to others I'm sure! 

 

I'm glad it's not KFC, but somehow, it is because of the belief systems and the policies already in place.

 

Absolutely, I agree you or your children should not be force-fed anything you don't want.  Vote what you believe, vote your concience. 

 

 

Oh I think there are more than enough people, pastors, or others who would willingly and gladly marry them without being forced to do so.

I think one of the reason why the protest, the gay protest is so loud and in all of our faces is because they have been denied the right for so long!  They wear us down because whatelse ccan they do if not be in our faces because some of us don't, cannot accept them for who they are.  They just want to live, work, play, buy their houses, have their businesses without fear of reprisals from the hate-mongers, and fearsome ones who make their lives miserable!  Why do you think they are all over the courts, because they have to ask permission to love and live and it is worse than being in jail, it is worse than some pet animals are allowed to live or treated.  I can't say I blame them! [I might seem extreme in what I say, but you get the point I'm trying to make here?]

 

 

AD,

My pleasure and I have to say I admire your persistence with this.  But really, I think it is akin to beating one's head against a brick wall (for both sides of the discussion) as there are obviously fundamental differences in the way we think.  All the same, it is more cookies for Serenity and I would far rather her get them than some others.

 

Heaven forbid anyone ever think that God does not judge and that the only ones who do are people with their myopic vision of a world based on righteousness.

What if I believe that there is no sin, that the only one I have to answer to is my own Consciousness and that there is no "right" or "wrong" but only different experiences which allow different reactions according to what I do or do not do.

No matter what people or society may think of me and people of the same sexual persuasion as me, I will only love to the best of my ability and what gender I choose to have as my partner is of my own business and of noone elses. For me it is more of a connection of the heart rather than of the genitalia. I have no need to procreate sexually and therefore focus my love when in a relationship more on building a stable relationship and connection.

 

That is fine with me. I only really care how the govrnment intercedes in it, and unfortunately I have not seen any good come from that side of the equation when they decide to "help" people.

What if I believe gravity does not apply and jump off a cliff? The consequences of being wrong are dire.

I'll leave it to you to hold your beliefs, Phoenixboi, because you're a big boy and entitled to that. But assuming for a second that you are wrong, the sincerest belief in the world will not change the facts.

Now, THAT being said, to the original question. The reason I believe the government should be morally neutral is because we are NOT a theocracy, and the government's responsibility should be to protect the rights of everyone involved. The only way, in my opinion, the government can TRULY respect the rights of those involved in this instance is to remain morally neutral.

FOREVERSERENITY POSTS #172


Lula posts: quoting KFC:

FOREVERSERENITY POSTS:




Let us not forget that Almighty God, the same one you describe above, was not accepting of homosexuality, most notably at Sodom and Gomorrah. The God-inspired words of St.Paul condemned acts of homosexuality telling us that those who practice unnatural vice will not enter Heaven. Don't you get it? God warned that Heaven would not be "inclusive" of them and other sinners as well. While some voices speak beguilingly that homosexuality is just diverse strokes for different folks, this is God's booming voice telling us that cloaking sin with respectability and acceptability isn't the way to go.

Instead of turning the other cheek, let us extend to our neighbor true compassion which is the fruit of love of God and love of neighbor for the love of God, and far from favoring sin and vice, seeks to help the unhappy sinner to abandon his sorry state.

God is All Powerful, Forgiving, Merciful and Compassionate and homosexuals through Jesus Christ can change their aberrational behavior.

 

Sodom and Gomorrah didn't get destroyed because of homosexuality, it got destroyed because of all the sinful acts, including fornication, adultery, idol worshipping, drinking was probably involved too, not just because there were homosexual acts going on.  Blaming it on the homosexuals is another fear that Christianity deemed necessary to do.  How convenient!

 

Heaven will not have sinners, that's correct!  That includes all sinners, not just homosexuals!  There might just be that one homosexual out there who will get into heaven more than you or I would, don't be surprise at that!    What does Jesus say, "Go and sin no more"   When he says that to whomever he chooses, don't you think that is compassion?  

Why is it that heterosexuals are able to sin, do all the deeds that they do and then weep and pray and ask for forgiveness and be forgiven by their pastors, or priests or whomever,  Then they do it again, and the "wash, rince, repeat" cycles go on and on and on and on.....is this not basically the same as sinning every day then?  Do they deserve to be forgiven and in heaven?  So how is that different and why wouldn't God be compassioneth and why would that behavior not be consider aberrational? 

You're on to something here.

Put in broader terms, there is a culture war that is being waged and the confliction is between the powerful forces of good and evil. The battle ground is over sexual morality and specifically whose morality do we want to shape our society and it's laws by which we're governed.

Is it the sexual morality found in Sacred Scripture or the sexually revolutionized morality that crept in over the last 40 + years?

Maso, I think it boils down to this. Many Christians agree that the Bible is for everyone but don't realize the inverse is not true. Not everyone is for the Bible.

While I, myself, may not agree with the lifestyle of homosexuality I realize that it is my experiences in life and my belief that brings me to this conclusion. I think it is completely intellectually disrespectful to tell another adult that their lifestyle should be more like mine. To do so is to say that my experiences in life and beliefs are superior than theirs (which yields the fruit of arrogance out of ignorance).

Really? so where does the word "sodomy" come from?




Yes, it's safe to say there must have been these other sinful acts as well.

From the long held notion that that was the reason for Sodom's destruction.

To clarify FS's statement, I'll give you the Scripture reference that supports it: Ezekial 16:49.

While the aforementioned verse does state that the reasons for Sodom's destruction were pride and excess of food while the poor and needy suffered outside her door, it does not, nor does any other verse in Scripture, CONDONE homosexuality. But FS is 100% correct when she said the reasons for Sodom's destruction were not homosexuality.

C'mon! You're not serious?

Take your friend who smokes (whatever?) like a chimney...is it disrespectful or loving to tell him it's dangerous for his health...or illegal?...or that he can't smoke inside your house?

How about a person who uses illegal drugs or is a drug dealer? Or the alcoholic? Is it intellectually disrespectful or loving to tell them they should be doing something better with their life?

Lula, I'm sorry but legislation will NEVER dictate moral behavior. Legislation isn't a solution nor even remotely an answer.

Imposing a moral code on someone isn't an answer either.

If you are looking for an answer it begins in your community. I can't even count the number of churches that have immorality within. Many of which come from Pastors or Priests!

When I was in high school we had the Youth Pastor molesting the Pastor's daughter IN THE CHURCH. The even more sad issue with this is that the congregation later stated that this happened to the Pastor's daughter because SHE didn't have enough faith.

Lula, I use this disturbing example because society isn't the problem but rather the product (end results). The hypocrisy found in churches (maybe not in yours)today should be appalling.

It's kind of an issue of before you tell me how to run my house, how about you get your house in order first (the you being in general and not pertaining to Lula). Then and only then if I 'WANT' to have that kind of order in my life I will ask you how you did it or how you live.

In my congregation where I go. I find it quite revealing when I hear comments about how well behaved the kids are (no they are not mine). Several young parents that visit often come to those parents (of well behaved kids) asking how they did it.

Lula, I'm in no way directing this towards you or to anyone on this thread. While I'm sure I sound like a wishy washy believer to you hopefully this helps you to understand where I am coming from.

The bottom line is the destruction of the home family (which took place WAY before this so called Gay issue) is more likely to contain the problem and the solution to your POV.

Lula, here's what you seem to continue to miss. Telling them it is dangerous is DIFFERENT than FORCING them to do something through legislation. This isn't about telling Gays that it is a 'dangerous' lifestyle but about legislation against them. Just look at the Prohibition period of the US. This is an issue about saying they can't do something because it goes against your moral standard.

Now let's not confuse the issue here. I understand what you are trying to say but before this becomes a slippery road there is a significant difference between drugs and Gays. Drugs become an issue of danger to the public. I don't have to worry about if the oncoming car has a Gay driver now do I?

GIDEON POSTS:

What was the crime that caused God to annihiliate Sodom and Gomorrah? Scripture is quite clear.

Check out Gen. 18:20....God said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their sin (singular) is so grave..." What is the sin which "cried out" for punishment?

Check out Gen. 19...it recounts the story of how Abraham's nephew, Lot, entertained two angels at his home in Sodom. Word got around that Lot had some visiting men in his home, and "the townsmen of Sodom, both young and old, gathered outside his home, clamoring for the two visitors to be turned over so that they could be homosexually raped: "Where are the men who came to your house tonight? Bring them out to us that we might know them. Lot went out to them and shut the door after him and said: Do not so, I beseech you, my brethren do not commit this evil.

Notice what's going on here. The townsmen cried out to Lot they wanted to have sexual intimacies with them and Lot in the next verses following the ones I quoted above attempts
to quell the mob by offering them his two virgin daughters suspecting that becasue these men were homosexuals they would refuse. The entire account revolves around one single sin: homosexuality.

Yes, while it's true that some of the later prophets, including Ezekiel, pointed out other sins, it's clear that the sin that provoked God's wrath was homosexuality. God didn't mete out complete destruction of two cities becasue of people were prideful and weren't charitable to the poor and needy.

St.Jude 1:7-8 "As Sodom and Gomorrah, and the neighboring cities, in like manner, having given themselves to fornication, and going after other flesh, were made an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire. In like manner, these men also defile the flesh, and despise dominion, and blaspheme majesty."

OK, so to set the record straight, the Bible lied? Because either Sodom was destroyed for the reasons Ezekial stated, or the Bible is false and every word in it is suspect.

I get a little frustrated when Christians tell me I'm wrong when I'm quoting directly from the Bible.



Don't you think the fact that they tried to RAPE these angels had a little to do with God being ticked, Lula? I do believe, for the record, that homosexuality was one of the SYMPTOMS of Sodom's sin, but to state that it was the express reason Sodom was destroyed goes against what the Bible says elsewhere.

The verse in Ezekial, for the record, also refers to it as "sin" in the singular.

AD,

You fail to recognize the fact that law is fundamentally about imposing somebody's views of somebody else. Actually, it's the very nature of law to impose particular views...that's what our laws do...and people don't like to have other's moral views imposed upon them.

Car thieves don't want laws prohibiting stealing..same of drug dealers...

That's what our legislatures do...they craft laws that will impose someone's morality on somebody who doesn't want their morality legislated.



We live in a nation of laws. We can't get around it.

The question is, whatever is going to be legislated by the force of law (in this discussion homosexual 'marriage'), is it reasonable, just and meant for the common good of all society or is the law meant for a few special interest groups to force acceptance of homosexuality and punish those who disagree by lawsuits, fines, and most of all, loss of our freedom of conscience, speech, and association?

I agree with Gid Lula. Sodom was a terrible wicked sinful city and homosexuality was just one by product of their wickedness. When you open the door to immorality everything creeps in. Homosexuality is usually the last straw before destruction and just a symptom of the real sin which is rebellion against God. All sin is rebellion against God.

We are going the same route. Homosexuality will be the last straw and God will give us over to it. We will no longer be the blessed nation we started out to be and I believe if you read the newspaper you can see that quite clearly and it's going to get worse.

Yes, and Israel was to be a light to the world. The same with us today. We are to be a light to the world and show them the way. If we stay quiet and hide our light how will they know? That's why Christ said, be a beacon to a dark world. Light up those dark places.

You mentioned AD to Lula that we are not to judge the world but only believers quoting 1 Cor.

Yes the church shoud leave the judgment of unbelievers to God and concentrate on setting their own house in order but we are not to sit idly by and allow sin to reign in our corner of the world if we are able to have a say. We are to speak out and we have many clear examples of that in scripture. Our main concern always should be our own but we are also to warn others of the dire consequences of their actions should they continue.

Gideon posts:



Don't be frustrated over this Gideon. It's just a matter of seeing Ezekiel's meaning through. You have it, but haven't gone far enough in checking the full context of Ezekiel. KFC helped explain it when she wrote:



Ezekiel 16: verse 49 points to the root cause of Sodom's vices. It starts out with an easy life of luxury, careless of the needs of others, which leads to worse sins. The avoidance of idleness is a means to preserve virtue. Ezekiel wrote v. 3, 7 and 10 "In the first place we must flee from idleness...that it was through idleness that the people of Sodom succumbed and fell into the shameful evil of consupiscence." Homosexuality was the product of their idleness which ultimately led to consupiscence. This is meant to be a lesson for us...connect the dots what leads to what?

Come on Gid.. what your saying is scientific law and fact, what most people believe in has not ever been proven as a scientific fact and therefore "beliefs" are based on what each individual holds true by their own internal experiences. Just as there are many religions in the world and different denominations of each then there are beliefs and as a human race we need to accept and not judge people for what they believe in. Because what you think is "right" may not be "right" for someone else.

I agree with you though that the government should be neutral about these issues.

Now what if I was to put it in another way.. Here in Australia anyway we have people living in same sex relationships say with both people recieving an income and paying taxes. We also have people living in same sex relationships where both people are on a pension or disability or unemployment. Now in this case both people are receiving the maximum amount. Now in a heterosexual couple of the same situation the government looks at that relationship and says well your living in a couple relationship therefore we will give you the couple rate, which would be considerably less than if both were receiving the income seperately.

There is also the issues of superannuation and the rights of property etc. Say a same sex couple was living with each other for the past 40 years and one of them was to die. Then legally the living person would not be entitled to the other persons superannuation like a heterosexual couple would. This is unfair.

I think the majority of gay couples arent interested in getting "married" so it can be recognised by a religion, but by the state so that they are legally entitled to the same rights as people in a heterosexual relationship.

I know I am saying all this to mostly a christian american dominated forum so whatever people believe or hold true is not going to matter. Am I the only gay person who has put their 2 cents worth in this debate on here? Or is it only the heteros fighting it out here?

 

I realize now that you are not from the US, however, I'm curious

so, to ask Foreverserenity's question, does it bother you that 4 California Supreme Ct. Justices overstepped their judicial position of intepretating law to that of legislating that California law must be changed to include same-sex arrangements?



This is fuzzy thinking. Right is right and wrong is wrong. When did it change and on what grounds do you accept that what is right for one may not be right for someone else?

If one person is right and the other one isn't, then the person who is right has the truth and the other one hasn't the truth. If you want to go to town by bus but got onto the wrong one, would you ignore the busdriver and say, your right is not my right?
I daresay you wouldn't cause it doesn't make sense.

WHY IS THAT AXIOM "VALID" ONLY WHEN IT IS A QUESTION OF MORALS?

Well said, AD.  Yet there are those who persist in using their book as a light to shine on those who don't believe in it.  It is akin to me using, uhm... lets say the Bhagavad Gita to reiterate my points in a discussion with Christians.  Its just not going to take.

Again, this is a great point.  The biggest problem I have with this whole issue is that some parts of the community feel there needs to be legislation to start with.  Wouldn't it have been better to simply say live and let live?