Point system on the Debates: Looking at the lies and misleading statements

from PolMach Forums
Link Distortions and Misstatements At First Presidential Debate
Link Cheney & Edwards Mangle Facts
Link Distortions Galore at Second Presidential Debate

Taking a score from all the lies and misleading statements from the debates it looks as if Kerry/Edwards won by almost half the points. Simply I looked at who lied more as the losers. Taken from the articles above at Cheney's precious factcheck.com, err, I mean org, I tallied up the lies and misleading statements.

1st Debate
Bush - 7
Kerry - 5

VP Debate
Cheney - 9
Edwards - 3

2nd Debate
Bush - 7
Kerry - 6

Overall Lies and Misleading statements
Kerry/Edwards - 13
Bush/Cheney - 23
politics
9,114 views 22 replies
Reply #1 from PolMach Forums Top
interesting...is there any way to tally promises made that can't possibly be kept?

There's no way Kerry will ever get his health care reform or court reform passed...even if the Dems would control Congress.
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Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
is there any way to tally promises made that can't possibly be kept?


I have a feeling both sides would suffer if you could. Also, well, one side at least has a record of failed delivery on promises.

13 lies is high, but I think it is important to make a distinction between out-and-out falsehoods and negative spin on information. The LA Times recently noted that the Bush/Cheney team is more likely to lie and the Kerry/Edwards ticket is more likely to negatively spin an accurate fact or use it to draw a faulty conclusion. Of course, this is the LA Times, so I am sure it is a biased source. But then, what source isn't if it disagrees with your particular view?
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply #3 By: Bungy32 - 10/12/2004 12:03:43 PM
is there any way to tally promises made that can't possibly be kept?


I have a feeling both sides would suffer if you could. Also, well, one side at least has a record of failed delivery on promises.

13 lies is high, but I think it is important to make a distinction between out-and-out falsehoods and negative spin on information. The LA Times recently noted that the Bush/Cheney team is more likely to lie and the Kerry/Edwards ticket is more likely to negatively spin an accurate fact or use it to draw a faulty conclusion. Of course, this is the LA Times, so I am sure it is a biased source. But then, what source isn't if it disagrees with your particular view?


What a CROCK!!!! They BOTH lie, get over it.
Reply #5 from PolMach Forums Top
What a CROCK!!!! They BOTH lie, get over it.


They do, but I did notice that Bush/ Cheney lie more.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
They BOTH lie, get over it.


See, that's my problem. I'm tired of being told, eh, politicians lie, what can we do? Damn my naive idealism! Damn me for a Tokyo Rose Commie!
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply #6 By: Myrrander - 10/12/2004 3:25:50 PM
They BOTH lie, get over it.


See, that's my problem. I'm tired of being told, eh, politicians lie, what can we do? Damn my naive idealism! Damn me for a Tokyo Rose Commie!


If you have a way that we can hold them *both* accountable then I'm all ears! And please don't say by voting for a 3rd party. That would *not* be holding them accountable.
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
From what I see, they both lied enough and to such an extent that both can be considered liars. I guess, if I want to make it seem as though Bush is the better man, I'll pretend that his lies are less significant and less in number (quantity precedes quality, right?).
When will people stop letting their biases blinding them?
Reply #9 from PolMach Forums Top
SCORING UPDATE FROM FINAL DEBATE

Link New And Recycled Distortions At Final Presidential Debate

BUSH 7
KERRY 6

Overall lies and misleading statements

BUSH/CHENEY - 30
KERRY/EDWARDS - 19

The biggest lie

Bush: Gosh, I just don't think I ever said I'm not worried about Osama bin Laden. It's kind of one of those exaggerations.

What Bush said

At the White House on March 13, 2002, after US forces had overturned the Taliban regime in Afghanistan:

Q (March 13, 2002): Mr. President, in your speeches now you rarely talk or mention Osama bin Laden. Why is that? . . .

Bush: So I don't know where he is. You know, I just don't spend that much time on him , Kelly, to be honest with you. . . .

Q: But don't you believe that the threat that bin Laden posed won't truly be eliminated until he is found either dead or alive?

Bush: Well, as I say, we haven't heard much from him. And I wouldn't necessarily say he's at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him. I know he is on the run. I was concerned about him, when he had taken over a country. I was concerned about the fact that he was basically running Afghanistan and calling the shots for the Taliban.
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
If you have a way that we can hold them *both* accountable then I'm all ears!


Yeah, I wish I had a suggestion for you, but I don't. Electric shocks every time they lie? It's a pitiful showing when the best the left can do is say "Hey, my guy didn't lie as much as the other" and that's it.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply #10 By: Myrrander - 10/14/2004 2:12:58 PM
If you have a way that we can hold them *both* accountable then I'm all ears!


Yeah, I wish I had a suggestion for you, but I don't. Electric shocks every time they lie? It's a pitiful showing when the best the left can do is say "Hey, my guy didn't lie as much as the other" and that's it.


I've always looked at things this way. If you can't do anything serious about the problem, then don't sweat it. If you could do something about it then *great* lets do it! But we can't. So why raise or blood pressure over it?
Reply #12 from PolMach Forums Top
Perhaps there should be some rules in place to prevent lies and misstatements. Perhaps the moderator should be well knowledgeable in all the issues and statistics and correct the person making the statement. Also, political commercials should be ok'd by fact checkers prior to being shown.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply #12 By: landen81 - 10/14/2004 2:49:04 PM
Perhaps there should be some rules in place to prevent lies and misstatements. Perhaps the moderator should be well knowledgeable in all the issues and statistics and correct the person making the statement. Also, political commercials should be ok'd by fact checkers prior to being shown.


Perhaps there should be. But people *can* be bought. Same thing on commercials.
Reply #14 from PolMach Forums Top
Third Debate:

Bush: 6
Kerry: 8

Is what I counted from Factcheck unless you missed the part recycled bunk and the parts where Kerry lied but they did not place a nice colored box next to it.

Though I could be off by one for Bush but I am dead on for Kerry.

- Grim X
Go Badnarik Go!!
Reply #15 from PolMach Forums Top
The biggest lie

Bush: Gosh, I just don't think I ever said I'm not worried about Osama bin Laden. It's kind of one of those exaggerations.


this is completely ridiculous. If you really think Bush was dead serious when he said he wasnt worried about Osama then you need to get yourself checked. He said it was an exaggeration, this is true. He was being sarcastic when he said it. He was trying to say: "we took out 75 percent of his men, hes totally done for"

And if you want to talk about lies, lets talk about the time where Kerry talked for hours(thats another exaggeration!) about how Bush hadnt met with the NAACP. Maybe its just me but I think Kerry is trying to win the undecided Black voters??? Very big lie.

Misleading statements? Id have to say that Kerry was making the most misleading statements when he tried to convince everyone that McCain backed him, good thing Bush shot that down or I would have come away thinking that McCain and Kerry were best friends. He also kept mentioning that Bush was the "first in 72 years to do this...." and I felt like saying "why dont you also tell us hes the first in 72 years to have to deal with a terrorist attack??"

Also, lets just throw in how many times they said downright despicable comments. "Hey guess what everyone, Cheney's daughter is a lesbian! Lets try and squeeze some votes outta this!" This is ridiculous and I can't believe he said it.

In conclusion, I would have to say that its quality over quantity when it comes to lies, and Kerry made a big deal out of almost every lie/misleading statement he said.
Reply #16 from PolMach Forums Top
Hmm.. I personally don't remember any negative comments about Cheney's daughter. The whole lesbian issue hasn't even been brought up that much. I think you're "exaggerating"
Reply #17 from PolMach Forums Top
Hmm.. I personally don't remember any negative comments about Cheney's daughter. The whole lesbian issue hasn't even been brought up that much. I think you're "exaggerating"


Link to Blog Debate about it

Link to News Article about Dick Cheney and Lynne Cheney's views on Kerry bringing it up.

For a wider perspective do I inform thee.

- 'Death Hand' Grim X
Go Badnarik Go!!
Reply #18 from PolMach Forums Top
If you really think Bush was dead serious when he said he wasnt worried about Osama then you need to get yourself checked.


Right, so he was just joking. I'm sure the families of 9/11 got a huge chuckle out of it.

about how Bush hadnt met with the NAACP.


He's the first president since Herbert Hoover not to attend an NAACP convention.

I would have come away thinking that McCain and Kerry were best friends


They are friends, but not "best friends." It just shows Kerry's willingness to work with those outside of his party.

"Hey guess what everyone, Cheney's daughter is a lesbian! Lets try and squeeze some votes outta this!"


Bush started this in the first place w/his anti-gay marriage bill. It's quite hypocritical to say one side can use the issue of homo-sexuality for political gain and the other can't. Even more so he was using her as an example that being gay is not a choice, that it's genetics.
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
about how Bush hadnt met with the NAACP.


He's the first president since Herbert Hoover not to attend an NAACP convention


So what?

"Hey guess what everyone, Cheney's daughter is a lesbian! Lets try and squeeze some votes outta this!"


Bush started this in the first place w/his anti-gay marriage bill. It's quite hypocritical to say one side can use the issue of homo-sexuality for political gain and the other can't. Even more so he was using her as an example that being gay is not a choice, that it's genetics.


Bush didn't bring it up, Kerry did. So Bush having *started* it makes it alright that Cheney's daughter's personal life is public property? WRONG!
Reply #20 from PolMach Forums Top
Bush didn't bring it up, Kerry did. So Bush having *started* it makes it alright that Cheney's daughter's personal life is public property? WRONG!


Then why is it a political issue?
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply #20 By: landen81 - 10/14/2004 8:00:53 PM
Bush didn't bring it up, Kerry did. So Bush having *started* it makes it alright that Cheney's daughter's personal life is public property? WRONG!


Then why is it a political issue?


I don't know. I thought that maybe you could tell me.
Reply #22 from PolMach Forums Top
Then why is it a political issue?


Wait, Cheney's daughter being a lesbian is a political issue? You focus on some trivial things.

They are friends, but not "best friends." It just shows Kerry's willingness to work with those outside of his party.


It just shows how adept Kerry is at twisting words to give him the advantage. If Bush got up there and listed about every supporter he had(like Kerry frequently does) then i would be equally disgusted, glad he doesnt stoop to that level.

Bush started this in the first place w/his anti-gay marriage bill. It's quite hypocritical to say one side can use the issue of homo-sexuality for political gain and the other can't.


I'll give you two situations:
1- Bush gets up and talks about his daughter that has just developed herpes
2- Bush gets up and bluntly says "Kerry's daughter has herpes"

one is acceptable, the other is not

Right, so he was just joking. I'm sure the families of 9/11 got a huge chuckle out of it.


Sorry i must have been unclear. Bush said it because he is a confident leader, and he knows that we are going to catch Bin Laden eventually.