Numbers Dwindling.

from Sins Forums
So a question for the Devs, the CEOs, and my fellow gamers. Is it me or is the community on ICO dying?

I've seen the number online every day dwindle more and more, the peak was well over a month ago that I saw. Am I just crazy or are we losing players day in day out. Are we just never going to have a real community? Just 20-30 guys that know each other and a bunch of random noobs that play for a week and never go back online? Honestly this game has lost almost all of it's appeal for me, for a number of reasons. Less competition, foolish imbalanced changes that could have been averted just by proposing the changes and letting the players actually... Playing the game, novel idea there, give you some input. The game was fun, but again, it has lost almost all of it's appeal for so many reasons.

Other competitors preferably I want your opinions on this, many I've talked to personally and agree on at least some level appeal for sins is fading. Is ICO forever going to be dead? Or are we just to wait and see and hope 1.1 is some amazing super mod that fixes everything and makes all the people that quit come back and new people want to play online? Personally, I doubt I'm around by the time 1.1 rears it's sure to be ugly head if the other patches were any indication. Are we just babied by games like starcraft, CoH, etc that are all great and competitive games and balanced. Or is this taking too long and we're being ignored? I want to give the devs time to fix things, but stuff like the 1.04 illum, the 1.03 market... a lot of different things have shaken any faith in this game. Maybe it'll be balanced in a couple months, maybe a year. But with this saturated market, can it survive that long? Are any of you honestly going to come back if and when it's balanced? Or are we just going to play starcraft two as it will inevitably be looming on the horizon before this game stands a chance at the rate it's going. Or demigod for some of you, whatever floats your boat.

I'm not trying to make a doom post here, but every time I log on ICO and see less people. I worry. Every time I check the forums, and all the talk of strategy and shit talking between clans has nothing new added to it. I worry. Every time I talk to my own clan mates, they say they're busy, playing something else, don't feel like playing sins. I worry. I've put a ton of time into practicing and learning this game inside and out, and I simply do not want to quit, but I hardly even feel like there's a community, maybe I'm missing something, maybe I'm crazy. But to me ICO is a rotting carcass compared to what it was. And it's only decaying more and more.

 I want to hear what you guys think, I want to be wrong. So do it, prove me wrong someone, show me this game isn't dying.

Haeso, fanboy to some, critic to others, hardcore gamer for better or worse to all ~

multiplayer
166,590 views 64 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
Hi there...

Well, I hope that, as you say, 1.1 will fix a great many issues and that it will not come too late for many players still keen on playing online. I have, however, noticed a decline in the numbers of people online lately. Perhaps thats just bad timing on my part - perhaps not.

I do feel that the unfortunate difficulties that many people have had with port forwarding etc has made it more difficult for players to create games and thus stay interested. I know this topic has been beaten to death in these forums, but it is a possible contributor to lower numbers. I frequently see new players joining ICO and trying to host, but not realizing that port forwarding etc is required. I am aware that this will be fixed in 1.1, but unfortunately a number of players may have been lost to this phenomenon already. I have met a number of new people who have said something to the effect of: "Why bother adjusting the ports on your router when you can play something else?" and "What a mission! No other games require that!" If their attitude is reflective of any significant number of people then it is at least partially responsible for fewer folks online I think. I am aware that people (like The_Monk) have been extremely helpful to others regarding this and many of us are very grateful, but still, the fact remains that the more effort it is for people to get stuff working - the less inclined they are to bother. Human nature unfortunately :-)

Lets hope that you are wrong and that the community grows some more! :D


Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
how can people play online with the mini-dumps. I have stopped playing but still stick around waiting for the fix.
Start11 - Customize the Start Menu and Taskbar in Windows 10/11.
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
For some people its finals /AP tests.....
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
how can people play online with the mini-dumps. I have stopped playing but still stick around waiting for the fix.


Only affects a small percentage of games.


And yes, most of the good players stopped playing by 1.04. Random resources surrounding planets is a big reason.
For this reason, I always welcome newbies, and i hate (read HATE) it when people ask me to boot a newbie. I usually just put them on my team unless it's a pro match in which case i feel sad kicking them out.

Moral of the story, everyone needs to be nice to new players!
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
Things to look out for....

Version 1.1 : With new features "hopefully" , we might expect to see players come back to the game and maybe rekindle the interests of players.

The Summer Holidays : Its exam period atm. Wait till Late june/july. Numbers will shoot up for sure.

European Release : Once this is on the shelves in Europe , expect to see lots more players going online. Germans and poles are really into online rts games. Lots of UK players id expect too.



Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
I agree with a few of Haeso's observations. I've also noted that quite a few of the closed beta testers have stopped playing, with a few commenting that they do not like the direction Sin's has gone since going gold.

Sin's is lacking depth and variability with most games playing the same way.

This is kinda expected given 1) focus on ship battles at the expense of other effective ways to win..i.e. culture, 2) infinite resources that are at the root of the 'spamming' phenomena i.e. we no longer have, as in chess, an 'end game' and actual risk based decisions, 3) complete lack of decent modding tools which could alleviate 1) and 2) as players could set the game up as they would like.

Point 3) is very important, imo, if you want some type of sustainable online community. Presently, I am not sure how much longer some of the larger modding teams can maintain enthusiasm with their projects with not even an ETA for the mod tools.
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
Maybe many people just don't want to play it online when "rushing" seems to be the only way to go? People like me ... ;P
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
i tried online and for the record if im a newb why can i play a 9v1 locked teams unfair ai and win because i didnt have many wins they kicked i tried joining 10 match in a hour i gave up on sin online and nobody would help me when i did play they said newbs die hahah i am not playing well back to single player i guess
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
i was 1 9 ais hard to win = not newb i played 1 match they whined because i was wining and quit wtf
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
I've pretty much stopped playing online as well. Sins is broken at the moment :(
Also I haven't gotten any response from IC on any of the balancing issues. Though I'll keep asking? I truly hate things the way they are, because I love this game.
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
I would love to play online if

A) There were more games online to actually join...

B) There weren't only 2 or 3 viable strategies to succeed...

Javaslinger
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
Perhaps even more concerning is the lack of activity on the forums.... It had dropped very, very substantially.

This means that interest is falling off not only for multiplayer, but also singleplayer and in the modding community.

Bad signs...

Javaslinger
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
Double post.. sorry...
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top
Java - as I said, the only modding community sins has is so goddamn limited by the piss poor excuse for dev tools, and I really hope they have some master plan for getting dev tools that work. But the way the game is set up they can't do it through the maps if I understand it at all, because of the way it's generated in game instead of stored. I could be wrong, it may be possible to add triggers/scripting into this in game map generator so it can read it from the notepad/.galaxy files.
Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top
I think no campaign is a big part of it. (The biggest part from the newbie perspective+no promise of any campaign in the current game and how can users be sure the expansion will live up to expectations if it wasnt possible to do a campaign in this game? Whether thats fair or not thats how many think and Im saying this not as a person who hates this game but as a person who really likes how it plays.[Im not leaving anyway :) ] )

Also as far as modding goes I really think the devs need to update the current modding setup so that users can script things like game events and most importantly make lots of additions to diplomacy so much so that we would see modded campaigns via the diplomacy screen, which can be triggered by events and ship spawns. If this isnt possible it needs to be made possible, because then you give the game true scope beyond skirmish.

Disconnection issues are another cause but my previous comments are what I think are the most serious problems , well those and faction balance.(Actually hate the idea of balance lets say that every faction needs powerful abilities in their own right)

Some not so severe problems but ones that could be still killing player base , at least newbie player base is hardly anyone on ICO plays with the default options .

Also the fact that people can pad wins 100% by disconnecting, now when new players join why would they want to play someone who by looking at there stats should demolish them in game so much that its limited what they can learn. (True new players may not even know about the DC exploit)

Heres another severe problem:: I dont think the game has been advertised enough, heres the thing I found it by pure chance while looking for other things , it doesnt seem to be getting as much time from the major game sites as other games.

Just to finally say about the modding , yeah I agree about the dev tools from what I have seen and read, a modding kit without scripting isnt to great imo.

Just to finally say, if they couldnt fit a proper campaign in they should have done what I have said many times , expanded diplomacy so the factions spoke to you hundreds of different convos just through text and events+ if you added a modding kit to enable players to add more , that would have really made the game something special and would have meant modders could have produced innovative and new things for the community, as I imagine theres only so much skins and what not you can do before you get bored, maybe Its because I do software development but please immplement fully fledged scripting which enables the modder to spawn and handle in game events + text campaigns

(What worrys me is the game is in no way shape or form designed to handle that basic functionality because it maybe wasnt properly thought about at the outset?

Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top
Well Sins is a pretty new game still and there is a lot to learn. I just picked Sins up recently and I'm still working on fleshing out my builds in the single player before I even attempt multiplayer. I want to be able to put up some sort of significant fight and not just get my ass handed to me right away.

Compared to other RTS games, there is quite a bit of complexity in the logistics vs. tactical, build trees, etc.. If there are other players like me who want to learn the game extensively before venturing into multiplayer they could be learning for a long time, as I am.
Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top
Like most of you guys, I have stopped playing online. It's near the end of the school year, and not having enough time to play a drawn-out game is really annoying.

However, when school ends i might begin to play some more online. Also, I totally agree with p5yy; they made it, people will come.
Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top
Hiya Shomino, believe it or not some of the people in MP are really easy going when you are new. Sure not everyone but still so you know there are good people out there. Also what you are saying about the game being new I can respect and Ive kinda hoped the same as well, that its the case that many others like myself never or hardly go online because they are still trying to get better against the ai. Unfortunatly with many RTS games being full of zerg rushers, I guess it makes sense that many will hang back until they improve.(Ive played MP but am sticking with SP until I have seen all the research tree now, at least for the most part) I remember a certain strat way back, I was new , went in MP and got shouted and sworn at and told I shouldnt be playing unless I had mastered SP. (I kinda play for enjoyment win or lose but that kind of thing puts people off - I havent had anything like this in sins though! Yet anyway lol)

By the way DEVS please if taking anything from my posts in this thread I would see the modding of diplomacy style multiple text campaigns is the most important part along with scripting and events because then you have compensated at least somewhat for the lack of a campaign - Its okay saying it will be in the expansion but you surely no because there is no method of creating some kind of mini modded campaign in the current product players have spent thier hard earned cash on that will dent future sales a little. (I guess whoever it is who told you that you couldnt extend time to put a campaign in should have been slapped lol still its a decent game :))
Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top
No edit but even though I get theres no campaign the game did cost significantly more than some other games with good campaigns so it makes me worry what the expansion will cost........am still buying like I promised though . (because its one of the very few strat games where actual gameplay is fun - on that note be very very careful what balance changes you make , this area must be difficult because when it comes to players all of us to some degree have a vested interest in our preffered factions. Thats why I think devs really need to look into any proposed changes highlighted via the forums regarding balance, thoroughly!!
Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top
I agree with Shomino. I, too, am still learning the ins and outs of the tech trees. Until I can get to a point where I can build up and progress through the tech trees without having to stop and say, "What does this do?" I probably won't be venturing online.
Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top
Most people are probably playing offline now rather than online.

I tried online for 2-3 days. Won half my matches, but it just felt too competive. Offline you can experiment and have fun (however, I wish the enemy made a harder defense)
Back in the beta I used to play online all the time, and the matches lasted for hours (average lasted 3 hours!)

But keep in mind the weather has been very nice lately, so people are going outside more. It's also finals week!
Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top
I love Sins, but in all honestly I doubt the multiplayer community will recover. Once 1.1 is released and it gets a proper release in Europe, they may be a jump, but right from the start you could probably tell that Sins wasn't going to be very popular online (highest I saw on ICO was near 400, the week of release). You could blame some of this on ICO's clunky-ness and hosting problems, but really considering the sales, it seemed clear that the game probably wasn't going to shine for it's multiplayer.

I don't even think this is so much the game or the developer's fault. The game itself doesn't seem to lend itself well to multiplayer, at least competitive multiplayer, just because of how it's structured. Sure, you can play small, fast paced games, but really much of the balance issues seemed to have been most clear in games like this, where just the small differences and strong early units can dominate a game. But the game as a whole seems designed around large, long games, probably mostly with the AI's in play. Despite a lack of a true campaign and some neat features (like saving online) in a lot of ways the game really feels like it probably wasn't geared towards a real competitive atmosphere, but probably more casual play, or cooperative play.

The developers aren't without blame to be sure, though. I'm not a very technical type, but there seems to be an inordinate amount of problems related to hosting for this particular game. On top of that, there are the balance issues that appear, most of which aren't horrible compared to some other games, and may be fairly easily remedied. But Ironclad seems more wedded to doing big patches with long periods of time in between, resulting in balance problems being brutally exploited for long periods of time. I'm sure they're likely disinclined to release many patches because of how it affects saved games (breaks them) and because most people probably bought the game to play long, single player matches, frequently releasing patches to fix problems for the small online community would likely frustrate the much larger offline community.

I'm no fan of ranking systems and ladders (they tend to promote just elitist, annoying personalities to lord their internet prowess over people). However this aspect can keep many people coming back, it gives people a larger goal to strive for, stats are fairly meaningless (for the reasons mentioned earlier, easily padded and such) but ladders tend to give people larger goals in the game, a reason to play the next game, if not just for fun (which I think is a problem, but again, it appeals to some player).

It's a wonderful game, I think. But I wonder about its future.
Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top
I don't even think this is so much the game or the developer's fault. The game itself doesn't seem to lend itself well to multiplayer, at least competitive multiplayer, just because of how it's structured.


I must be in the minority but I reckon from what I have played in MP sins is by far the most relaxing enjoyable strat , period that I have ever played online, its got complexity to the point where you cant just take one look at a referance sheet crunch some numbers and theres your killer strat like practically all other strats I have played. It lends itself to so many levels of play online. I actually reckon the current situation is fixable , (the multiplayer balance, Im actually confident that will be addressed in time and am kinda glad in a way the devs are opting for big patches - I will be happy waiting if I know they are actually working towards PROPER refinement of the game, I actually think where balance is concerned that will get fixed)

Its the modding stuff that people need to be able to make the game meet its potential is one of my main concerns. (Really for longevity enable modders to script text campaigns and events .

Yeah redmaw I happen to agree with much of what you are getting at irrespective of some of what I have said its just I dunno I still have some faith the devs will do their best and the game hasnt officially been out for long at all . The whole goals thing yeah agree thats why I think sooooo much give us scripting to handle events and make text based campaigns inter woven with realtime events. (Text base campaigns through diplomacy are basic arent they? but the fact is enable this kinda simplicity for gamers and modders can quickly setup lots of diversity to the point of text like rpg elements in sins(not like traditional rpgs), thats a whole load of scope and basic enough for the majority to do, then you folks concentrate on the expansion and by that time sins has a metric ton of text based content and missions, that alone will have sold copies. I do worry about the games lastability because of pure skirmishes all the way but I still think we need to give the devs a chance but also the devs need to realise the CURRENT game needs more if you want to attract real game status(As in loads upon loads online , I was going to say with big dedicated servers up like the ones people hire but just remembered the game is P2P. I know more or less the pros and cons and I still think P2P is not the best system, because with other games powerful dedicated servers can be hired and I just think client server is a better model, a fast connection should handle the hosting , theres no way for us players to test but I think it would have been better and plus servers like jolt servers etc could have been used , once those 24/7 servers are up people know they can always get a game and so more will play knowing they have no faffing around to get in a game. I have seen P2P used for a few games with loads of justifications and all I know is that every P2P game I play doesnt handle connections near as well as client server , at least what I have seen.

I'm no fan of ranking systems and ladders (they tend to promote just elitist, annoying personalities to lord their internet prowess over people).


Agree, the thing is and I am guilty of it as well having been on the web and on some dodgy communities but really when it comes down to it the majority of people are pretty nice , its just the one or 2 that make the most noise really make an immpression you know? (I hesitantly say ranking is fine if it brings other players but what I worry about is maybe clans playing a certain set of rules online then everyone else thinks thats the norm, I mean at least a minority of the time people should encourage someone to play, in fact you know I was online the other day and a guy asked "Can someone show me the ropes please in mp?" . Now I was sitting in IC and the guy was polite and patiant, he asked twice and you know the answer he got: "I will play you if you go on the opposite team and I will show you how someone loses" (Cant remember exact words - they did appear to say it in a joking kind of way but I bet this person and their friend would have snapped up the chance to own this guy if he accepted). I actually went in game with the guy and myself and the person played us 2vs2 ai on a medium map. Fact is he said he was totally new but he actually knew as much as myself I think, actually helped my own game on with this guy, I just explained about buildimng the cap ship, pirates,black market, research,etc but the fact is knowone was going to give him a fair offer off help.

Also I didnt notice any ping indicators in the room when I was hosting, because of this I ended up getting someone in with a slow connection. They need to get peoples pings listed up next to their name in plain view in any room the join , the fact as far as Im aware that sins hasnt got this will be causing more problems because someone on a dial up modem or other slow connections can just not say anything and then the host will be wandering why all the lag and maybe attribute it to the game.

Sorry about the huge post , will make this my last but on a postive note I think we should give the devs a chance . I want to see the game going from strength to strentgh not dieing. At this point we need to think if the devs see people getting really impatiant they may just throw something together , if they are making a huge patch I say we let them take ages and do it right because another mistake or 2 could be bad. (Give them a chance the game is hardly out , at least with threads like these in which people arent being abusive they can get an indication of whats needed and at this point I still have alot of faith :) and can wait)

(I have had ample say thats me done with the thread :), hope it stays productive!)
Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top
I'm sorry, I couldn't read even half your post, add some damn paragraph lines. Not trying to be mean, but that just hurts my eyes trying to read it.

And not to be mean, the game doesn't have much time, from it's first inception untill it's either accepted as a big title or it becomes some backwater TA-esque game that is kind of popular but never really takes off. The market is saturated as I said, there isn't a lot of time before people just go back to staples like wc3, CnC, CoH, SC while they wait for the next big game.