Cheaters

from GalCiv2 Forums

Forgive my use of such a dramatic title to this thread but it's clear to me and many others that this is precisely the word that applies.

I know that it's a dangerous word to use because there are many shades of activity that many people look at in a very different light. There's cheese, there's milking and then there is outright cheating. The problem is that while everyone can think of various activities that obviously fall into one of these categories there are many potentially grey areas between them where people may see things differently.

The other part about an actual accusation of cheating is one of evidence. What constitutes sufficient evidence for something to be considered cheating? Clearly a cheat flag detected is one (hence the name). But even in the case where a game is cheat flagged, care is taken to not specifically throw around accusations of outright cheating, and in general rightly so. There is no reason to cause any more embarrassment than necessary and the cheat flag speaks for itself. Also cheat flags have occurred in error to even the most reputable of players for no explainable reason.

Take for example the best player that I ever knew, Mangumaniac. He received a cheat flag on a game with a score and settings that he had achieved many times both before and after with no cheat flag. He hardly even mentioned the fact. At one point when someone else had questioned what they had felt was an undeserved cheat flag he mentioned his case along with an opinion to what may have caused it. In some way it’s almost a badge of honor. To take an undeserved cheat flag on a high scoring game that most folks would give their eye teeth to achieve, the truly great player merely shrugs it off as just one of those things.

While I haven’t personally had a game cheat flagged, I have had a very high scoring game that wouldn’t submit. At first I was annoyed to say the least but when it became clear that there was really nothing that could be done I at least tried to live up to the example that Mag had set and shrug it off.

But I digress. The point is that although a cheat flag is evidence, it is not incontrovertible. The issue I have is that I have far less evidence then even a cheat flag yet even so I honestly believe that the accusation is warranted.

So what is the evidence that I do have to make such an accusation? Very little actually. The only evidence I have is when some otherwise unknown player achieves a score that is close to 100 times the score the best known players could achieve. To me that’s more evidence of cheating than any cheat flag could ever be.

Keep in mind that I’m not talking about someone getting 40K on a game that an acknowledged expert could achieve 20K. I’m not even talking about a game where someone gets 200K on a game that the so called expert would only expect to achieve 20K. What I’m talking about is a game where someone achieves 2 million points on a game that the best players might expect to achieve 20 to 30K.

This is precisely the level that I’m talking about. Like I said this can be a slippery slope. People come up with new strategies, cheese, exploits etc. all the time. While some may object to such things mostly they don't stoop to the level of actual cheating. But how can one be sure that there is outright cheating based only on the absolute value of the score?

There is the idea of reasonable doubt. That some unknown player could post a game 10 times the score of the best known experts is not outside the realm of reasonability. That some unknown player could post a game 100 times the score of the best known experts is. While this is a slippery slope I feel confident that 100 times is safely beyond the realm of reasonable.

The issue is that Stardock cannot take action based on this "evidence" and rightly so. Stardock needs hard proof and in these cases there is none. However the fact that Stardock is prohibited from taking any action due to the lack of any hard evidence doesn’t mean that the weight of forum opinion needs to be held to the same rules of evidence. In fact the AltMeta as a non-official media is able to make such distinction.

Also as I mentioned the good opinion of your fellow players is really what is sought when one strives for high metaverse scores and as the fellow players involved we have every right to withhold the respect that otherwise would be due to someone that achieved such scores.

Therefore I want to use this thread to highlight those extremely few players that any reasonable person would be certain is cheating.

Again I want to highlight that this is in no way an attempt to be petty or vindictive, it is merely an attempt to uphold the integrity of the metaverse.

So without further ado I want to present two players that I believe deserve the title of

Cheaters

Spacetimer

Who achieved 2 million points on a 2 year small galaxy suicidal DA v1.80g game when the best players in the game would expect to achieve 30K tops.

DJMJB

Who achieved 1.4 million points on a 0 year small challenging DL v1.5 game when again the best players in the game would expect to achieve 30K tops.

Harborne

Harborne used illegal characters to boost his empire score by using and maniplulating the serial numbers that he got from beta testing. It's expected that Cari will eliminate the illegal characters and move all posted games to his single legal character so the effect is hopefully correctable although the intent stands for itself.

In the words of Kryo...

Exploiting the metaverse in this manner is unacceptable; everyone else is limited to three characters per copy, and using loopholes to circumvent the scoring mechanisms and artificially boost your empire's standing will not be tolerated.

I want to stress that I make this accusation with all due seriousness and concern for the possibility of someone's presumed innocence. I would ask that anyone choosing to add a name to this list make the accusation with the same care and concern. This should not be a place to post something that's merely questionable. There should be not the slightest doubt about any name placed here.

metaverse
286,668 views 83 replies
Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I strongly agree that the above mentioned players should have their points removed outright, and possibly banned if SD can take apart the saves and find what they did. Everyone knows there is no way in hell anyone could achieve those score by legal means and it hurts the integrity of the entire Metaverse to have these kind of people clogging up top ten positions while others slowly claw their way up legitamently.

I'd love to hear what Spacetimer or DJMJB have to say in their defense, but I doubt there could be much they could say as the scores speak for themselves.
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Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
While I too agree that the two mentioned above are cheating beyond any reasonable doubt, I don't forsee any action being taken. Spacetimer's 2 million point small map 2 year game has remained since January.

I brought DJMJB's games to the attention of both empires I'm a member in. It's not that I expect Stardock to give any notice though. We know though. It has to be enough.
Multiplicity - Control multiple PCs using one keyboard and mouse
Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
We know though. It has to be enough

That's exactly the point.

There is no action that Stardock can reasonably take.

The only real meaning that the metaverse has is the meaning that we as players give to it.

We cannot take their names off the list. We cannot take the points from their characters. The only thing we can do is to "know" that their rank and position are meaningless.

It has to be enough because that's all there really is.
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Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
A pity they chose to start us on this path, but I agree it is necessary for the integrity of the Metaverse community. A newcomer should be able to know without investing a lot of time in research that those scores are not honestly possible. If I thought I was 400 times worse than the best players, I might never have tried to get better. It's important IMHO for players to know where the bar actually has been set by skilled, honest players.
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Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I agree... Cheaters suck... But I don't reckon they should be ban... I have actually encountered the cheaters flag myself when I was making mods. Some mods are untested for cheater's flags and people get busted. Some people make fair mos that don't give you the advantage of anything. yet they get busted. I reackon they just shouldn't get the points for it if their's a flag.
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Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Perhaps they found another loophole that doesn't trigger the cheat flag, like "advanced race config".
Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Well done Mumble. Both those guys are cheaters, no question about it in my mind.
Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Just thinking about it, if Spacetimer and DJMJB wish to rebut the accusation of being cheaters, they should develop the intestinal fortitude to come to this thread and defend their actions....

So how about it guys?
Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Cheating in single player, I say go nuts if you wish. It's your game, do as you wish. Hell, I do. Not in Gal Civ, but in other stuff (Half-Life 2 for example. Grunt-o-matic!)

But cheating in a multiplayer environment is the act of an unmitigated coward and a malodorous sleazebag who deserves to be publicly flogged and beaten with sticks.
Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Sure why not... haven't had someone to terrorise in a long time :D.
jokes, but i would like to hear what they have to say for themselves.
Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The point of the Metaverse is to provide a tool and ranking system so that we can measure ourselves against other players. As such, it should be kept clean of cheating.

Those scores are simply ludicrous, compared to other documented scores by well known players. Unfortunately, scores themselves are no proof, but I hope Stardock finds a way to investigate this.
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Reply #12 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The point of the Metaverse is to provide a tool and ranking system so that we can measure ourselves against other players. As such, it should be kept clean of cheating.

Certainly true and Cari does an excellent job of it too. However nothing is perfect. Stardock is aware of these players and scores but like I mention in my overly long OP they need actual proof and without proof there is really nothing they can do.

The suspicion is that these are examples of hex file editing where folks have actually figured out where the checksuming or hash totals or whatever protection mechanism exists and discovered ways of circumventing it.

This is a total guess but the belief is that there is no possible in-game mechanic that could allow such scores on such small maps in such short timeframes. Even if the player was somehow able to flip every planet in the galaxy on turn 1, that couldn’t account for such scores. If there is no in-game exploit capable of producing such scores then that leaves some outside of game mechanic, and the best guess is the editing of the actual score in a save game file.

I do want to highly encourage everyone that replies to this thread to be as respectful and civil as possible. It’s very easy to get carried away with something like this. This is not a witch hunt, we don’t wish to become abusive to these or any other people. We merely want to as calmly and as reasonably as possible make the statement that we as a community believe these two characters to be cheating.

The only point of this thread is to publicize activity that we as metaverse players wish to discourage. We can’t do that if the tenor of this thread turns ugly and warrants being locked.
Reply #13 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The problem is, as you say, we have no solid proof. We don't even have endgame savefiles to view.

AFAIK the only thing that gets send to the MV servers is the endgame XML, possibly with some additional info about the savegame. That means that not even Stardock may have access to the games themselves.

So that leaves us with these possibilities:

Stardock say 'in dubio pro reo' and the scores stay. Without proof, this seems likely, however suspicious these games are.

Stardock say 'these scores - in comparison to other expert scores - are proof enough' and bans the accounts.


Now, the only proof we could have is if either of those two come forward and provide a savegame or at least describe their strategy in detail. Highly unlikely. On the other hand, I'd bet there are enough coders on this board that in a concentrated effort, we could try to arrive at the same result, thus proving to Stardock how these cheats work. That, however, could get ourselves into trouble.


It would be nice to know if these scores are actually under investigation, though. Kind of like in Formula One, where there are those messages saying that a certain incident is being investigated by the stewards. ;)
Reply #14 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
On the other hand, I'd bet there are enough coders on this board that in a concentrated effort, we could try to arrive at the same result, thus proving to Stardock how these cheats work. That, however, could get ourselves into trouble.


If you are doing this for the sole purpose of trying to determine how it was done, I don't see why Stardock would complain. You would be helping them fix the loophole (or whatever it is), right?
Reply #15 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
That's the way I see it as well, yes. However, I wouldn't start on such an effort without a definite answer from Stardock first. ;)
Reply #16 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
how about looking into the game files themselves? what actions add points or deduct points. it is possible they found a way to Edit these files... if so, i'm sure you can peice together an average game and what the score would be using their game details.
Reply #17 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
On the other hand, I'd bet there are enough coders on this board that in a concentrated effort, we could try to arrive at the same result, thus proving to Stardock how these cheats work. That, however, could get ourselves into trouble.

I don't believe that this is in anyones best interest. Very little has been said about the precise nature of the protections in place and I believe that is the best course. There are some things that are simply better off remaining unknown.

I'm encouraged by the reasoned and civil response to this thread, but I also want to put this in context.

The first occurance of this was Spacetimer. There was one game in particular (2 million on a small galaxy) that really stood out but there were also two 400K smalls and a 94K small at beginner difficulty that easily fit into this category. These games were all posted within the space of 1 week by a player that had been inactive for 14 months and whose scores previous to that time were ordinary at best.

However after these four games there were no more posted. All in all this wasn't the end of the world. Certainly it would be extremely annoying to those below him in the MV but all that could be done was done. Stardock was informed and Kryo simply pulled these games from being listed on the AltMeta. Kryo can do this on the AltMeta based on his own discretion because it's in no way official but Stardock requires proof. So this is the way it's stood for the last 4 months now.

Now suddenly there's also DJMJB that posted a 1.4 million 0 year small and 3 tiny games ranging from 138K to 450K. the 138K was actually on cakewalk. In this case there was no previous history .

In any case we are treading a very fine line here and I am sure that if there is anything Stardock can do it will be done but failing that we need to be satisfied with what we are doing here. Simply publicizing those we believe to be cheating beyond the shadow of a doubt. By doing this we deny the cheaters what they want. It's the only thing we can do and the only thing we should do. I think it's enough.

Reply #18 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Everflyer, you could edit the files and give yourself huge bonuses in every department but that would still not allow such high scores as these two cheaters have submitted. To give you a rough idea of scoring take Mumble for instance. In a giga/abundant all game with 17000 ships an income of near to or over 1 million bc per turn and a population of anywhere from 5 trillion Mumble has managed to nearly get a million point game in around 6 or 7 years. You can only get those scores by growing your empire to its full potential.

Giving yourself all the bonuses and abilities in the world would still not allow the scores these guys have achieved in such a short time (game years) and on such small maps.

If anyone could legitametly gain super high scores on a small map it would be Wyndstar and IIRC his highest score on small is about 100K. Truly impressive on it's own but a far cry from what these guys are claiming, and Wyndstar is a master at the smaller maps.

Hex editing their scores directly is what many suspect these guys are doing. They are probably playing a game legitametly scoring say 20~30K and then just hex editing the score itself in the endgamesave file before submitting to the MV.

AFAIK the endgamesave is uploaded to SD so they could check this out. I could be wrong on that but is that not how Master U was found out?
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Reply #19 from Stardock Forums Top
Metaverse scoring isn't *exactly* about playing well, it's about knowing how the points system works. The highest scorers all deliberately engage in various suboptimal plays (from the point of view of winning the game) purely because those plays increase the score. Isn't it possible these superscorers have just found an extreme loophole in the scoring system?
Reply #20 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
It certainly is possible, but given the extreme nature of the scores, it is just sooo improbable. Also, they are playing Dread Lords, as far as I can see, so all loophole should be known by now. This may also point toward the exact cheat they use no longer exists in Dark Avatar or Twilight.
Reply #21 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Meh, edit button gone: DJMJB uses 1.5, Spacetimer apparently play DA. Still, the loophole may be different.
Reply #22 from Stardock Forums Top
I agree, just playing devil's advocate.

Probably no point doing that in this case...it's just too extreme!
Reply #23 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Metaverse scoring isn't *exactly* about playing well, it's about knowing how the points system works. The highest scorers all deliberately engage in various suboptimal plays (from the point of view of winning the game) purely because those plays increase the score. Isn't it possible these superscorers have just found an extreme loophole in the scoring system?

You are correct in that MV score and optimal play are not totally correlated.

There is a difference in an extreme loophole and the scores that are being achieved. Realize that with all the most skilled players in the game at exploiting these very loopholes you mention there has never been a 1 million point game achieved in either DL or DA and that is when selecting abundant everything in a gigantic galaxy which results in close to 500 planets in DL and close to 750 planets in DA.

So now we're to assume that a previously unknown player can suddenly more than double the highest score ever achieved on a gigantic abundant all type game on a small galaxy with perhaps 30 planets tops?

My answer is No, there is no extreme loophole that could possibly come close to achieving such a score. If a player were to somehow start out on turn 1 owning all 30 planets in the small galaxy and also magically have the population of each of those planets be 100B even then there is no way you could achieve such a score.

Realize that in my gigantic game where I scored 957K, I owned 450 out of 475 planets before the end of the first year (year 0). I had a 24 military starbase array fully built by the second year (year 1) giving each of my 1/1 fighters a 1512 point bonus. Within another year I had built over 17 thousand 1/1 fighters which were based on a huge hull. I finished up the game by doing a bankrupting upgrade of all 17 thousand ships to 25 attack 450 defense behemoths that with my military resource mining bonuses was actually worth 2000 attack/defense point per ship and then held that along with my 1.6 million BC per week income for another 3 years. For all that I managed the highest score ever achieved of 957K.

So tell me how there is any conceivable way that someone with 30 planets in a small galaxy could more than double that score in only 2 reported game years.

So with total confidence I can say there is no in-game exploit, cheese or other mechanic that could account for such a core.
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Reply #24 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Yeah, meh. It does seem that there is no edit in the Metaverse forum. That last "core" should actually be "score".
Reply #25 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Based on your analysis (that no amount of planetary boni can achieve that score) I'd say that either the scores themselves are edited or, to put a new idea out there, the turn-counter for the calculation was somehow changed. Depending on what IDEs those two have access to, it may have been even at runtime and then GalCiv itself would do the writing of the necessary checksums.