Make the World a Better Place?

Tolerance is the key

On Erathoniel's blog is an article On Evil, and in the comments, cscoles mentions that "Evil is not working together to make the world a better place." to which Erathoniel responds that that is exactly what *he* believes.  But Erathoniel also states in his article that "Evil is any time man walks away from God, the Creator."  Can those two statements exist peacefully side by side?

 

There are many belief systems in our world.  The problem is that many advocates of these belief systems are intolerant of other belief systems, and the most fundamental of them refuse to work with others who believe something different.  Some belief systems suggest that anyone not of their belief system should die.  Some would have governments run based on the principles of their belief system knowing full well that it would be at the expense of groups of people of other belief systems. I propose that this is neither tolerant nor is it "working together."

 

So if you are one who agrees that we all need to work together, what is required?  It seems to me that tolerance of beliefs that are different from our own is necessary for this to occur.  The only other solution I see would be to eradicate anyone that doesn't believe what you believe from the world entirely.  Well...mankind has been trying that last idea since the beginning, hasn't it?  Doesn't seem to be working too well.

 

So here's the problem in a nutshell.  You have a set of beliefs that you think the world should operate by.  Next door to you is someone who has an entirely different set of beliefs that he thinks the world should operate by.  How can you resolve this and "work together?"  In order to work together, common ground must be found.  It's safe to say that you will not find that common ground in the entirety of your respective belief systems.  So the first thing that has to go in order for "all to work together" is the belief systems.  I do not mean stop believing what you believe - I mean suspend it for the purpose of group progress.  I mean be tolerant of other beliefs long enough to make some headway into reducing suffering for all.

 

How do you do that?  Well, in my opinion, it is by placing "objectivity" in a governing place.  Belief is subjective and it's personal.  If either of you holds to your subjective belief as a governing factor for what actions should be taken and what decisions should be made for progress, there will be conflict, and "working together" will be hampered or impossible.  The common ground, therefore, is the set of testable and verifiable things also known as the "objective."

 

This, contrary to religious spin doctors, is the goal of science.  Science wants you to put down your beliefs long enough to make some actual progress.  It doesn't want you to stop believing what you believe.  Science doesn't want anything to do with the "Belief Business."  It just wants us all to find a common objective ground on which we can all agree regardless of belief so that we can "work together to make the world a better place."  I do NOT mean that science asks you to believe a particular set of facts that it discovers.  It wants you to agree to a method for TESTING facts that isn't subjectively based, and if a proposed "fact" isn't testable, then it belongs in the subjective realm - the belief realm - and should not be considered for any actions or decisions that affect everybody.

 

So if you believe that it is "evil" to not work together to make the world a better place, then I ask you, what experiment have you done today?  What evidence, testable and verifiable, on ANY subject have you produced?  What goal do you have in this regard to lessen the suffering of all? 

 

Or do you spend all your time listing things that should not be tolerated and pointing at your doctrine for proof of it?  If you do, then by the above definition, you're "evil."

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Reply #1 Top
I dunno some people got suffering comin' too 'em. Like I told a guy in my care the other day that was a constant bitcher and complainer 'cause everything didn't go to suit him like he thought it should: every morning I roll outta bed at oh-six-hundred, drop down and do my daily morning ritual twenty-five push-ups, shower, have breakfast of eat two scrambled eggs on whole wheat toast with a glass of 1% milk, brush my teeth, get dressed and head out the door just so I can come to work and roll up my sleeves AND GIVE YOU MOTHERFUCKERS HELL.

Anyway, he found out what my belief system was and we've got along (more or less) fine ever since.

Reply #2 Top
Very insightful article. I agree that we humans, as a species, have a long way to go with regard to working together for our common good. It could be that we'll never get there, but I hope that's not the case.

Despite our various and sundry belief systems most if not all share some common concepts and ideas that could serve as the basis for the common ground needed to achieve cooperation. I suppose it requires a real and urgent need for that to happen.
Reply #3 Top
Some people believe that killing those who don't believe is a good thing.

Others are commanded to love other regardless of what their belief system is.

Which one is held out as more intolerant?

Which one would be able to work together with everyone?

All I'm trying to say is, I'd love to work together for the common good of everyone. But it's my belief, unfortunately, that God knows what is best for everyone and therefore for the common good the only way we can live is God's way - everyone showing love to each other in humility.
Reply #4 Top

Another very insightful article Ock,

Intolerance is a big part of us, we learn it early on as soon as we're thrust into social situations such as school when we formed clicks. Later we formed clubs and legends and dressed a certain way so we can be easily recognized by others of like mind.  The ability to truly see things from someone else's perspective is rare, most people have to talk at length with someone they harbor intolerance for before they can begin to put aside their differences. That's why the only cure for intolerance is diversity, it forces us to deal with with our differences.

Intolerance for other beliefs just showed up on the big screen with that lying propaganda movie Expelled. Such intolerance for what they've decided is a competing religion they went as far as to blame the holocaust on it, and people are buying this vile hate speech from Stein.

Link

Reply #5 Top

All I'm trying to say is, I'd love to work together for the common good of everyone. But it's my belief, unfortunately, that God knows what is best for everyone and therefore for the common good the only way we can live is God's way - everyone showing love to each other in humility.

 

Your God doesn't have a monopoly on directing loving others in humility, J, so it is unnecessary to draw that line, and in fact, drawing it alienates any group who doesn't believe in your God.  You can think to yourself that they are wrong in their choice of deity, and that should be enough for you.  As long as the work continues amicably, and the progress gets made, both groups are "showing love to each other in humility."  One says it's because it's your God's Way, and the other doesn't, but they're both doing it, and neither is alienated.  This may not be the ideal for a group which is commanded to proselytize their way, but it's the only way that ALL have an equal chance to contribute to the whole.

 

You ask which of those two groups would be able to work with everyone, and the obvious answer is the one that is commanded to love regardless of their belief system, but I know of no such group.  Oh yes... :LOL: ...I know that some CLAIM that that is their way, don't get me wrong...I know that's what some profess *chuckle*...:NOTSURE: but I haven't seen any that actually do it.  What I see usually is complete intolerance for any way but one way.

Reply #6 Top
What I see usually is complete intolerance for any way but one way.


I used to have a t-shirt that said: WE'LL GET ALONG FINE AS SOON AS YOU REALIZE I'M GOD.

Funny, but I didn't get a lot of cooperation on that.  :NOTSURE: 
Reply #7 Top
I can work together with anyone loving other in humility no matter why they're doing it.
Reply #8 Top
I can work together with anyone loving other in humility no matter why they're doing it.


No you can't!
Reply #9 Top
I can work together with anyone loving other in humility no matter why they're doing it.No you can't!


Obviously, I stand corrected.
Reply #10 Top

Obviously, I stand corrected.

 

Even though it was a joke, J, you said in some other reply "We can't go back to seeing things in the way you do, where things are true for one person and not for another. It's true for everyone, which means a lot of you are going to hell."  I notice you fail to include "If we're right about this." 

 

Some of those that are going to hell would be more than happy to "work together to make the world a better place" but they aren't likely to do that with someone that has such disdain for them.  And even if they could swallow the disdain, the "working together" can't really happen.  Because you are BOUND by your beliefs that making the world a better place REALLY means make it a more Christian place.  They, obviously, are not going to agree.  So again, I emphasize that the only place differing groups can actually work together is over non-religious, objectively true, testable, proveable things.  Religion needs to get out of the way of progress.

 

Opinion:  If society lasts another 1000 years, it will be because we were somehow able to do just that.  And at that point, this age will be labeled "The Second Dark Ages."

 

In closing, if your idea of "working together" with someone only works so long as you keep your mouth shut about your belief that they are going to hell for not believing what you believe, (which you can't do because a lie of ommission is still a lie), then maybe you DO stand corrected.

Reply #11 Top
The biggest obstacle to everyone working together for the common good is that we still can't agree on what that is.

Opinion: If society lasts another 1000 years, it will be because we were somehow able to do just that. And at that point, this age will be labeled "The Second Dark Ages."

Nah, probably just the "dim" ages, or the "dawn" of reason... that is unless we start executing scientists again.
Reply #12 Top
I notice you fail to include "If we're right about this."


It's not an 'if' statement. I will include "We're right about this." That's fine. There's no 'if,' there will never be an 'if.' God shows himself to me in many ways. So why would I bother saying 'if' when the only salvation plan that will ever make sense is written in the Bible and happened?
Reply #13 Top
And further, how will that keep anyone from working with me if they are showing love to me in humility?
Reply #14 Top
And further, how will that keep anyone from working with me if they are showing love to me in humility?


The knowledge that you think they deserve to burn in hell for all eternity regardless of their nature is probably a turn-off.

Anyway, you can pretend to be humble and kind, but if you really think they deserve to suffer the most horrible torments anyone's mind can imagine then that is going to be picked up by the unbelievers. You can't hide that level of contempt, scorn and pity.
Reply #15 Top
The knowledge that you think they deserve to burn in hell for all eternity regardless of their nature is probably a turn-off.


I can't speak for Jythier, but I don't THINK anyone deserves to burn in Hell...I would rather see everyone in Heaven.

What God thinks, though, is another matter entirely.
Reply #16 Top
I can't speak for Jythier, but I don't THINK anyone deserves to burn in Hell...I would rather see everyone in Heaven.

What God thinks, though, is another matter entirely.


If you don't agree with your god's judgement of those who don't agree with it, why do you worship? Is it cowardice that makes you worship a god you think sends the undeserving to eternal torment, or is there some other reason?

I mean, it's nice to say that people have a choice, but if you believe that God's condemnation of the innocent and the guilty alike to hell for not being Christian is right, then I don't see what makes you morally different to those who urge genocide. Likewise if you believe that such moves by God are wrong, then one has to wonder why you worship. Do the fringe benefits outweigh such a being's sickening cruelty?

Anyway, this is all off-topic. The fact is that if you believe that a nonbeliever will suffer eternally, then chances are that's going to come across in your manner and turn people off working with you, if only because if you're a good person you'll probably going to try and convert, which is rarely appreciated.
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Reply #17 Top
If you don't agree with your god's judgement of those who don't agree with it, why do you worship? Is it cowardice that makes you worship a god you think sends the undeserving to eternal torment, or is there some other reason?


No, that's not what I'm saying at all, cacto...

What I'm saying is, it isn't about what I think...it's about what God thinks. It's a valid question, though.

I don't "urge" God to do anything, cacto. I have my beliefs, and I share my beliefs in the hopes that others around me understand and believe as well. No, I don't "beat people over the head with it", but I don't mince words when my opinion is solicited.

Anyway, this is all off-topic. The fact is that if you believe that a nonbeliever will suffer eternally, then chances are that's going to come across in your manner and turn people off working with you, if only because if you're a good person you'll probably going to try and convert, which is rarely appreciated.


For the record, I agree with you. That's why I don't buy this "I'd like to buy the world a Coke" malarkey! We are different, we believe differently, and if we can do so without causing harm to others, it's our right. But it doesn't mean we all need to get touchy-feely and have to work together. To coexist is sufficient.
Reply #18 Top

First of all, great post. 

How can you resolve this and "work together?" In order to work together, common ground must be found. It's safe to say that you will not find that common ground in the entirety of your respective belief systems. So the first thing that has to go in order for "all to work together" is the belief systems. I do not mean stop believing what you believe - I mean suspend it for the purpose of group progress. I mean be tolerant of other beliefs long enough to make some headway into reducing suffering for all.

Well said.  I think you've succinctly identified the biggest problem when it comes to multi-faith group dynamics.  It is easy to see past these differences if the individual is prepared to let themselves see past (okay, that was clumsy but I'm sure you understand what I mean). 

Some time ago, I worked in a large open plan office where 60 different people worked.  There were representatives of all the major religions of the world working there, side by side and quite happy to help and guide each other.  The shared common goal was the one thing keeping everything together.  It didn't stop anyone from believing what they wanted and it certainly didn't stop any discussions regarding different beliefs.  But it provided a cohesion that helped us all get along with each other.

Maybe we all need a common goal in order to learn to get along with each other, regardless of our beliefs.

Reply #19 Top

 

There's no 'if,' there will never be an 'if.' God shows himself to me in many ways. So why would I bother saying 'if' when the only salvation plan that will ever make sense is written in the Bible and happened?

 

Out of respect to others who do not believe what you believe, Jay.  When you state "THIS IS SO, NO IF ABOUT IT!" but you can't prove objectively whatever "it" is, it's not endearing.  I don't discount the possibility that what you say is true, but you pre-discount many things as even being possible.  That's not humble, that's humiliating.

 

Maybe we all need a common goal in order to learn to get along with each other, regardless of our beliefs.

 

I want to comment on this more, but I don't want to rush those comments, and it's time to go to work.  I shall return!

Reply #20 Top
I can't speak for Jythier, but I don't THINK anyone deserves to burn in Hell...I would rather see everyone in Heaven.

What God thinks, though, is another matter entirely.


God thinks, as the Bible states many, many, many, many, many, many times, that everyone deserves Hell. You deserve it, Ock. I deserve it. Gid deserves it. We have all sinned and fallen short. That there is ANY way to be with God for eternity is a testimony to God's amazing grace! And there's nothing you, I, or Gid could do to get there... because it's a gift that God gives to us. It's not about what we do or how we live, it's about Jesus Christ, and that's the beginning and the end of the salvation plan. God has plenty of other plans for our lives, but that's the salvation plan. And any plan based on what we do or how we live will never make nearly as much sense as God wanting to save everyone in the easiest way possible.

What I really want to know is, how does this belief get in the way of working with other groups? They know what I believe, but they know what they believe. They know I'm wrong, I know they're wrong. Besides the killers of infidels, what's to stop us from getting along just fine? Haven't you ever seen Keeping the Faith? Or 7th Heaven? People with different beliefs getting along just fine, right on TV! I could do that too! Why does a belief about the afterlife get in the way of life?
Reply #21 Top

Why does a belief about the afterlife get in the way of life?

 

It wouldn't if it was left as subjective (aka keep it to yourself).  You, Jythier, DO tend to keep it to yourself.  And you and I have enjoyed some times just kickin back over a chess board.  We tolerate our differences of opinion and set them aside because the goal is a good chess game.

 

Some folks aren't so content with their own beliefs...they need others to cosign them (and of course they'll scream loudly that they don't need any such thing, but then they'll prattle on with their subjective reasoning.)  When any group gets loud enough about wanting others to bend to their will (which of course they say is god's will - as if they really know this), it creeps into politics where it affects everyone, and that's just not right.

 

Maybe we all need a common goal in order to learn to get along with each other, regardless of our beliefs.

 

I agree.  Unfortunately, it's hard to get large groups of people (nationwide/worldwide sized) to agree what the goal should be.  It's doubly hard when small groups wish to taint the large group with subjectivism.  But that's my point in a nutshell, isn't it?

 

I am very curious, what was the goal of the 60 people?

Reply #22 Top

Some folks aren't so content with their own beliefs...they need others to cosign them (and of course they'll scream loudly that they don't need any such thing, but then they'll prattle on with their subjective reasoning.) When any group gets loud enough about wanting others to bend to their will (which of course they say is god's will - as if they really know this), it creeps into politics where it affects everyone, and that's just not right.

Bingo, give the man a cigar (and not one of those cheap, crappy ones either - assuming, of course, you do like a cigar).

But seriously, I see this as one of the biggest problems in the world today.  Faith is, as you said, and as far as I'm concerned, supposed to be personal, private and individual.  Shouting from the pulpits is fine because the audience already believes the message.  In a recent post (here: http://roylevosh.joeuser.com/article/309961/Soap) RoyLevosh quoted Anthony De Mello as saying "My experience is that it's precisely the ones who don't know what to do with this life who are all hot and bothered about what they are going to do with another life".  I think for a man who dedicated his life to religion, this is a particularly profound thing to say.  There is a lesson for all of us in these words.

Unfortunately, it's hard to get large groups of people (nationwide/worldwide sized) to agree what the goal should be.  It's doubly hard when small groups wish to taint the large group with subjectivism.  But that's my point in a nutshell, isn't it?

I was talking with my wife about this last night.  When I mentioned your idea of 'working together' and my common goal comment, she said "oh, you mean something like Global Warming?"  As I said, the problem with this is some believe it and some don't and some don't want to believe it and some don't care.  I was a bit surprised she thought of a negative rather than a positive as an example but the reality is it will probably be something devasting that will bring us all together rather than something positive.

I am very curious, what was the goal of the 60 people?

It was a large Revenue service for a public hospital.  I know it doesn't sound glamourous (and it wasn't) but we all worked hard along side each other for long hours.  And we all got on very well.

A little off-topic, I know, but I couldn't resist sharing my favourite De Mello quote: "I'm going to write a book someday and the title will be I'm an Ass, You're an Ass. That's the most liberating, wonderful thing in the world, when you openly admit you're an ass. It's wonderful. When people tell me, "You're wrong." I say, "What can you expect of an ass?"

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Reply #23 Top
Some folks aren't so content with their own beliefs...they need others to cosign them (and of course they'll scream loudly that they don't need any such thing, but then they'll prattle on with their subjective reasoning.) When any group gets loud enough about wanting others to bend to their will (which of course they say is god's will - as if they really know this), it creeps into politics where it affects everyone, and that's just not right.


I would be ecstatic if everyone accepted Jesus. I will work in my relationships to help people towards Him. But I can't MAKE you believe, and you, Ock, don't seem to have any inkling of wanting to believe at all. So, as you said, we can put aside our differences and have some fun - or we could put aside the differences and make the world a better place. Whatever the common goal is, I won't let my beliefs get in the way. After all, if it's a 'common goal' it already is my goal, which means it fits with my beliefs already (or doesn't and I don't care).
Reply #24 Top
I would be ecstatic if everyone accepted Jesus.


I just want to take this statement for a second.

Christians often say something to this effect...accepting Jesus. Is there anyone out there actively rejecting Jesus? I have yet to see campaigns against Jesus...like ever.

If there's anything it's a general "meh" attitude or unbelief...but nothing to the extent of "I DON'T LIKE JESUS ZOMG!!!1"

I think by accept Jesus you mean accept the Christian institution...but of course that's split into a million different denominations...even Christians can't seem to agree among themselves and yet everyone prattles on about accepting Jesus into their lives? That doesn't seem quite right to me. If everyone accepted Jesus and everything he had to say then all Christians would agree and there would be but one church...if it was all as simple as that anyway. All those splits are disagreements between churches...it just seems...a little odd.

~Zoo
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Reply #25 Top
I think by accept Jesus you mean accept the Christian institution


No, I mean accept Jesus... the institution isn't going to save you without Jesus. And I see EoIC actively rejecting Jesus, and actively campaigning against Jesus... I also see others actively campaigning against Jesus. Ignoring the gift, or not being sure, is as good as rejecting it.

If everyone accepted Jesus and everything he had to say then all Christians would agree and there would be but one church


A lot of the denominational differences are not doctrinal in nature, such as the type of music your worship with or the amount of structure to the service, what is allowed to be said/done during service, etc. A lot of difference are doctrinal, though. I don't know why, honestly. I guess churches are led by humans, which is why we are encouraged to read the Bible and decide for ourselves whether our church is scripturally based or not.
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