China, Tibet, and the Olympic Games

Well... where do you think all that money the US government keeps borrowing to fund its idiotic tax cuts (and "stimulus packages" more recently) is coming from? The Chinese are many things, stupid is not one of them.

The world in general has a pretty bad track record at this sort of thing. We seem to care when its happening in Haiti or Yugoslavia, but pretty much nobody is paying attention to the disaster in Zimbabwe thats going on right now (where an election is being rigged after the fact). Rwanda was pretty well ignored when things spiraled out of control.

Tibet isn't being ignored in the same way, but world leaders look at what doing something about it would cost and decide that people "over there" aren't worth it. Most Americans might like to protest about it, but ask them what they're willing to give up in order to do something about it? The enthusiasm wanes when people realize that telling China to play nice won't actually be enough to solve the problem, and real action (which carries real cost) is required.

I think it's because everyone got bored of Africa's petty stupid problems thirty years ago.

We can thank Nixon and Old man bush for this!

Anfd for those who dont know Bush was in the Nixon administation.

I think that people aren't as selfish as that. I mean I am quite certain many would sacrifice a lot for those in suffering. I just don't think the suffering is that well known. I have seen very little in the media about Tibet or other cases such as Sudan.

Which is unfortunate, but that's because someone suffering 2000 miles away doesn't sell as many papers or demand as much TV attention as someone suffering across your street or in the next state. Getting into the media aspect of it all is an entirely new can of worms to open.

I would just like to point out, that on an historical scale, genocide is a way of life in Asia. It always has been (not that I condone it, quite the contrary).

If you stop and think about it, and assemble a list of genocides and attempted genocides in Asian countries. You will find that they happen probably every 15-30 years or so all the way back as far as recorded history goes (with a few periods of stability interspersed throughout).

Eh, as long as we are talking about screwed up atrocities...

Did you know that the Japanese killed ~35,000,000 Chinese in WW2? But you never, ever, ever hear about the Japanese getting any grief for committing mass murder on a scale that eclipsed even the Nazi's Holocaust. Also, never forget the Rape of Nanking.

Truly, and unfortunately, there is nothing new under the sun.

Well, this is a typical example of western orwelian double speak.
Whats about the ~1.4 million civilian deaths in Iraq since the invasion in just about 5 years of the "won" war? One could argue, that the US should get expelled from the olympics, being the active keyrole in two aggressive wars and its connected warcrimes.
And no, it is no cooincidence, riots seem to be appearing in the pretext of the games. I guess, CIA foreign branch got active again, executing some "cold war" mission, and the media play their part, business as usual.
I want to point out, that I dont support any foreign occupation, be it US, chinese or whatever. I just want to show the weakness of the western coverage on that topic, since we all are led by warcriminals.

Just look at the cost and willingness to sacrifice in our current war in Iraq (deposing a dictator who had committed numberous human rights violations and atrocities). I see a lot of complaining within the US and not a lot of people joining the military. I see a huge lack of support from outside the US to help end the war there. What do you think it would take to fix all the worlds problems much less keep China in check? I don't think people are really willing to sacrifice what it would take to end the oppression in Tibet.

The dragon is rising and there is not much we can do about it without massive sacrifice. Are you willing to forgoe all the cheap products they produce? Are you willing to risk a war with the next superpower? China is a huge threat to western civilization and they are organized and willing. Unfortunatly, they have their hooks in everything. I think it is a travesty to allow them to even host the olympics.

i agree with al your points good points too
but i just want to point out tibet is the only country in the world
that is occupied by a foreign country (i heard lot of people around me say that its a
province of china thats not true at all)now there is something wrong with that is it not?i mean its even more wrong that whole world just let it happen and i dont understand europe policy on this since we were once occupied by the nazi`s.
and about other things most people dont know tjetjenie [former ussr) are still fighting for indepedence against russian troops and the whole world AGAIN does nothing
my point is we got a long long long way too go with the human race
i dont like the road we are heading too.

PEACE and game on

Huh? Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, in some way (still) Germany...

hey i think its not right either but as some of you pointed out what can we do? theres ~1,4 billion chinese and they have the worlds most advancing economy, they are truly a threat to western civilization and the olimpics are only oil on the flame. and when you have so many goods to choose from youll have an economy collapse (`30 years just before WW2) and chinese products are doing this

you are right my mistake

I'm Canadian and our government is not involed in Iraq so I cannot comment on that however I do know that foreign troops are in Afghanistan at the request of the Afghan government so therefore Afghanistan is not occupied. Whether you agreed with the NATO invasion or not. Palestine does not currently exist as soveriegn nation (because they won't stop blowing themselves up long enough to negotiate)so there can technically be no occupation of a Nation that does not exist. Finally any foriegn troops in Germany are there as part of a NATO (Noth Atlantic Treaty Organization) agreement so that would also not be an occupation.



As I'm pretty sure you are Democratic in your leanings I should point out that it was your boy Clinton who allowed the genocide in Rawanda to take place. I would also encourage everyone to read the book "Shake Hands With the Devil" (If you can't bother to actually read the book instead of just watching the movie then you have no bussiness taking part in this sort of discussion) It was written by the Canadian General in charge of the U.N. peacekeeping mission in Rawanda during the genocide. It points out alot of uncomfortable facts that we in the Western world need to deal with.

the sad, sad truth.   

its sad that its come to this, all this war and hate. Now there are only 2 options for the world.

1) Aliens attack the Earth, and humanity unites to defeat them.

2) This is even less likely, a very inteligent and humanatarian leader comes into power, and unites the world via diplomacy.

With all these wars, invasions, casualties, and cruelties; we lose sight of the things that matter. We're all humans.

Talk about exaggerating the facts... did you not even bother to RESEARCH that before hand?

Iraq Civilian Bodycount this should shine some light on the misinformation that was posted.

I'm sorry, I intend on staying out of this but....



No, Palestine doesnt exist as a sovereign nation because We (the British and the Americans) were and still are complicit in the destruction of it and its people.

Secondly you realise this arguement means that Tibet doesnt count as occupied either right?

Have anyone ever researched what Tibet was like before the occupation? Just my curiosity.

Here offkey:

Tibet, before and after occupation
History of Tibet before Occupation

Anyone heard about how the Chinese are considering economic sanctions against France because they are opposing China's occupation of Tibet?

If they actually do this, we all know just how screwed over France will be after a few months.

Hell, I don't know if any of you follow the stock markets, but when China took a big fall last year, the rest of the national economies around the world didn't recover for a month.

I don't think it would be wise to take on China directly, and would instead recommend something like making Tibet a Special Administrative Region like Hong Kong and Macau, that allows the Dalai Lama and Tibet to mostly control their own affairs other than defence and foreign relations.

ooohhh someone should do a mod...the races could be:

1) Chinese: the power of communism - industry bonuses and cheap units
2) Tibetans: the power of buddhism - reincarnation and passive resistance tactics
3) Americans: the power accusation - can pull in Nato forces as backup when strategies get out of hand (or are completely wrong)

There's so much that can be done with this!

while thats nice and all, what would China GAIN from giving them independence? Macau and HK are trade hubs that generate massive amounts of money for the govt.

I've to laugh at the first link you give.
Let's read something much serious: http://cc.purdue.edu/~wtv/tibet/history0.html

To make my point that how the internet could affect your view of the world, I give you anther link: http://www.quant-media.com/collections/tibet_flyer1.pdf

Should we ever start debating these things in a game forum in the first place?

China wouldn't gain anything other than a bit of peace of mind, especially if the Tibetans agree to such an idea.

And this would also remove one way of WW3 starting.  

Well, part of the fact is that the US and most other countries of the world are in no position to tell China what to do for anything. They can't agree in the UN, and quite frankly, no one has the balls to take the economic hit. Hell, you'd be crying once the economy comes crashing down because we unilaterily decided to piss off a major economic superpower.

Face it- If America can't take the pain of occupying a dinky little part of the Mideast and fusses over deposing a tyrant and not being able to keep up standards there, just THINK how fucked up a mess things will be if we try messing with a country that could actually -do- serious, actual damage instead of just causing liberals to bitch.

Is it that the government is against war, or is it the PEOPLE against war? We can't even stand the thought of cleaning up after ourselves in Iraq, and you want to take on an economic and nuclear superpower? You're kidding, right?

The US won against the USSR because it actually had the nuts to fight covert wars in Africa, Afganistan, Nicaragua, and all over the globe. We rid the world of an extremely evil empire. And what does Ronald Regan get? Bitching about the deficit it caused and the economic sitauation thereafter. Honestly, I think you finding a hard time getting a job is -worth- demolishing political oppression. I think a few years of chaos is worth telling the people in the world, stop being dictators.

The unfortunate fact is, that if the US took action against China, it would simply cause more Tibetans to die, more Americans to die, and more of everyone to die, and quite frankly, it would never be able to win. Other than cultural persuasion and diplomatic influence, the US doesn't really have any leverage on China it could use to make such demands. The best way to do it is to follow the Dhalai Llama- A slow course of persuasion determined at changing people's minds.

If anything history has shown, China can be persuaded. Look at it now compared to 20 years ago. Grassroots protests and hippie wagons are -exactly- the right tools for this kind of job.

Also, Tibet has nominally been part of China since the 17th Century, right on through the days of the ROC. It would be like if Florida suddenly seceded from the union. China provides military and economic protection.

The main issue here is that the 'autonomous region' is not really autonomous, and that the government interferes highly in religious affairs. It also continues to carry on an insulting propaganda campaign to demoralize the Tibetan people. If China granted them true religious and political and freedom of speech, I don't think there would be a problem. The PRC government is simply has some kind of grudge against Tibet.

An independant Tibet would be a starving theocracy- the only infrastructure there is the Chinese infrastructure. Again, it would be as if all the government employees of Florida just got up and left.