Well, with people that won't do what is needed (common freaking sense), on both sides, nothing at all. All we need is for people to realize that taking care of the earth isn't akin to being satan incarnate, and to get people out there that actually have practical and pragmatic ideas.

 

Stalin was crazy, but he was no communist. Heck, even the so called communist revolution in Russia was a bunch of bollocks, because according to Marx, a people's revolution can only happen when food supplies are optimum and their is production driven by greed. (More or less) From what I remember, "Soviet Russia" was closer to a socialist country, with a touch of dictatorship, oligarchy, etc... It's Ironic that it was called a communist country when one of the main things with communism is a classless society, obviously there were social classes.

Also, you seem to equate being an enviromentalist as being insane. I would like to say that your assumption or stereotype is completely wrong. I am an enviromentalist, but not crazy.

Addendum, You say that communism is not enviromentally friendly, so I ask this: Is capitalism any better? No, not really. For that matter, is any industrialized nation any better? No. Beacause when you have industrialization, and growth of population (among other things), you'll have enviromental problems. Communism is only a part of the debacle. The real culprit, is ourselves.

 

 

First off, oops, I meant Lenin, obviously. Secondly, Dude, it's a fact. Lenin (Or Stalin) was not a communist, he couldn't have been. Ask any historian, anyone who actually studies it. We're covering it in my history class right now, as well as I've actually read about it (as history fascinates me to no end).

And you know what, while I don't want to have polluted water, or dirty air, I know i cannot change you. I'm not the environmentalist who will shove it down your throat. Sorry Doc.



Those who do that are hypocrites, period.

Please understand that all Christians, Hebrews, and most Islamism are good Stewarts of the land and believe in taking care of the land God gave them. One the other side you have people that are radical communists that hide behind the mantle of environmentalism in order to push their agenda of hate and anarchy. Look at the ELF, they proclaim to save the Earth from us, by burning whole car lots of new SUV’s and mansions, and apartment complexes. Sure they know that fire pollutes the air and destroys the land as well as private property. This is not environmentalism it is terrorism.

Other groups make the same claim while attacking financial institutions and businesses. This leads me to believe that most of the nut jobs out there are either suckered into the movement or stupid.



I never mentioned the man of steel, translation of the word Stalin, I only commented about Lenin and the deaths attributed to his reign of power. Actually they called themselves communist/socialist. They tried to claim the best of both philosophies and failed. They had two classes those in power and those without.



Then I suggest you re-read what I wrote and then read my above reply to you.



Yes, as soon as it became clear that killing the land around them they cleaned it up. You don’t remember the great Lake Michigan. The old joke was that it was so polluted that an atheist could walk across it. People complained the business responded. President Nixon responded with the creation of the EPA to force those shortsighted businesses to do what is right. It has since been taken over by wing nuts that use the laws to cripple business rather than protect the land.



You are correct only in America do we care enough to clean up our messes. Canada and Mexico are disasters. Europe is a mess; South Korea and Japan are two that keeps its environment in close to good shape.



As soon as it became clear that there was a problem we started to fix it, it took from the 1940’s to the 1960’s before it was clear that our lakes and rivers were not good dumping grounds we no longer do that, but at one time it was considered normal practice to dump waste into rivers and lakes because no one bothered to notice the cumulative effect of the dumping. Other nations are 60 years behind us at best.



I disagree, in America we have a separation of government and business. Where as in other countries business and government work together in order to make money, if pollution is a problem they write laws to allow businesses to continue to pollute.



You are too young to understand how your school is messing with your mind while re-writing history to suit their current views. Back when the Soviet Union was still solvent they touted the miracle of communism, we capitalists were wrong and all would be right with the world if we only allowed communism to work. Then when they went bankrupt the story changed to if they only had enough money they would have built a utopian model for us to follow. Now they are not communist because they failed but for 50 years they sat in academe trying to convince the students that we needed to go communist.

Time magazine named Iosef Vissarionovich Stalin his real name was Iosef Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili, he changed it to Stalin to make him sound strong, as man of the year. When the deaths, torture, and gulags were reported the academics dismissed this as propaganda to destroy a great man. When the proof was provided just like global warming the facts were ignored. During spring break 1975 I went to the USSR, lovely place. It made our ghettos look palatial, the air stunk from pollution, and people lived in fear. Fear of freezing to death, starving to death, being hauled away in the middle of the night and killed by their own government.

You are correct it was not pure communism just like America is not a pure democracy or capitalist society.



Not speaking for the esteemed Dr. Guy, I don’t disagree with taking care of the land we live on, what gets my shorts in a knot is that we are the blame for everything, we saw the problem and put a set of fixes in place, the environMENTALIST, came along after and began their crap. Business and Government worked together to clean up the mess rather than ignore it. You don’t need to ram it down peoples throats because the ones that get it do something about it rather than burning down things and creating hate and discontent.



On this all free thinking people agree.

That's exactly my point, they could never have been communism, because (like you said), they failed. That's what I'm trying to get DrG to realize. (And I think i actually meant lenin, unless im mistaken).

The main reason they failed , and that communism will always fail, is greed. Ironically enough. That doesnt mean though that you cant apply communistic principles along with others into a mixed economy or what not. Just, realistically, Communism (no matter how good the intentions) just won't ever work. Humans are not altruistic really.



I'm not saying to push it down throats. Even then though, just by doing something like a mass awareness campaign can be considered shoving it, heh. Can't please some i guess. I'm not the type that will ram it down a throat, at least not intentionally. (If i have, i do apologize, im passionate about this topic.) And I disagree partially, there may have been "fixes" put in place, but there's also the need for adapting and changing the fixes.



Anarchy isn't a bad thing necessarily, not many ideas are bad (granted there are some that are). Ideas can't be bad, they're neutral, the carrying out,etc.. is usually what is evil.

ELF is...something else, lol. I live in a state where they like to...play around. They're one enviromental group that I don't care for.

And actually, ironically enough, the instructor I have isn't "agenda driven," because he's actually conservative. And I've talked with him enough to get that he doesnt like politics and the whole tripe about red/blue, etc... He's a pretty cool guy.

I honestly don't see really how



Haha, funny, there doesnt seem to be much of a split what with the special interests, the tax breaks, the bail outs, etc...


~DrG~



*sighs* I'm never going to get you to concede any points of mine am I, because you're just going to lay it on being a liberal.

I will say it, because as I said, Lenin couldn't have been truly communist. Sure, he could have been a faux communist, but if you actually look at Marx, and what Lenin did...yeah, he altered it. He made it Leninism, not communism.

You have some factual errors that need to be corrected before I can agree with your points. First the world of academe will never admit to failure do to being fundamentally wrong, they blame the failure on America. Communism has failed everywhere it was tried. Socialism has failed everywhere it was tried. Shades of both have failed where tried. We have empirical data proving this and yet the academics’ still wish to tout communism as a way to go. Oh wait, there was one time communism was tried and succeeded but the academics’ refused to use that example. In the early church it was done and worked. Buy that would require a belief in God and that is repugnant to them. No race was refused and all worked well. Socialism worked in the bible as well. It was how the prisons were run. Take God out of the mix and it fails every time.



Have to disagree with you on this one as well. Unless you believe that taking my Hebrew brothers and sisters and tossing them into gas chambers was a neutral idea that was somehow misused. How about the Spanish inquisition was that too a neutral idea that was misused? It went against the laws set by God but was done in his name. I still can’t see how the idea of slamming a plane into a building for the purpose of killing people had any redeeming qualities to it. Maybe I missed the fine nuances to these “neutral” ideas.
Anarchy is the absence of any formal system of government, can’t see how that works if you plan on continuing the human race. If I disagree with you, and kill you that is okay by your standard? If you have money and I don’t I should just take what you have because I want to and that is okay as well? I want sex so I just grab the next woman I see to indulge myself that should be fine as well. Never seen chaos work well for the person being killed or oppressed.



None of the evil three will work as long as we are human and leave God out of the planning. Pure communism will always fail because humans don’t wish to follow a path of humanitarianism; love is not a major motivating factor with humans.

Well said sir.

Addendum:

If Communism is "perfection," or at least what Marx said, then the Russians were never a true communism, because the failed at it.

Heh, that's what I tried to do. I admit though that often when some of the others here attack my points all at once my mind tends to unravel.

That is just assinine. Communism is not an attempt at perfection any more than Capitalism is. They are systems of existance based upon an economic model.

Actually it is, think about it Doc. Perfection isn't absolute, and many of those who supported Communism saw it as the perfect way. According to them, according to the very theory it would be a balance. All the workers would have jobs, no shortages, etc... Granted, no civil rights (or very little), but then just go back to my second comment in this paragraph.



Granted, business is, but there is also the need for ethics and morals in business. You can make a profit usually without having to screw the workers. These CEO's and others who end up screwing the workers are being unethical.



I never said Communism was great; it's a noble idea, yes, but like I said, none of those who have tried it have truly followed it. (Sometimes, when I'm reading about it, it begs me to wonder if any were sane,heh)

And I believe I did state that there are current applications of it, heck, I believe our own government does.

(TBC)

Doc, I'm talking about a differing of opinions. You're stating an opinion, but I am stating a common belief (granted, opinion).



You know, I've argued this far, but I'm really starting to understand that you're never going to concede anything I say. You've come across as smugly superior, but perhaps that's just an observation.

Let's call it a draw.

You can blame the avant guard of my generation for that. Back in the 60’s the same people who are the democratic political leaders today, came up with the bright idea of relevance in school. They demanded that schools stop wasting time teaching things that are not relevant to the student. So instead of ethics classes we were taught humanism and humanities. Because, they reasoned that their parents were responsible for teaching ethics. The next thing they got out of our school system was religious training, which re-enforced the ethics classes. They reasoned that they got enough of that in church. So from 1966 to 1998 ethics was not taught in college unless you took it as an elective. All of our current business leaders are graduates of those schools.

Doing things the liberal way has eliminated one of the balances in our system. Come the 1980’s those ethically challenged people started a reign of terror that is still being felt today. And your answer is to put people in business that have ethics. Well all that was taught was the bottom line and no balance of ethics or religion. I pointed this out in school and was told that I was naive and did not understand how great the system is.

We now have teachers without ethics or morals teaching children like yourself that you don’t need ethics while in the same breath decrying a lack of ethics. Some schools seeing the problem of the 80’s and 90’s re-instituted their ethics and religious classes but the teachers are trained to be unethical so it will take about 40 more years to get that fixed.

In the 1920’s we had the same problem which was why they stressed ethics until it became irrelevant and discarded in the 60’s. We have business students that will become business leaders surrounded by old school management so it will take 20 more years to weed that out and clean it up.

That one liberal win in the mid 60’s has had a ripple effect throughout our society that is just coming to light now. Teachers without morals or ethics doing what they can to protect themselves rather than teach the people they are charged with what is needed to advance society. Lawyers that will do anything for a buck to make it big like Senator Edwards that made it big in one law suit. Sure he took home tens of millions of dollars in one case. The result is doctors can’t practice medicine in his state because it is cost prohibitive. So now people can’t get health care, the ones that can pay an extremely high insurance premium. Insurance rates going through the roof because Senator Kennedy pushed through his stupid idea of affordable health insurance called managed health care. The same managed health care he wants to get rid of now in favor of universal health care. Do you think it will get better?

Politicians that have always been ethically challenged no that is not fair, ethically void, have had 40 years of schools not teaching ethics to help with that problem. All so communism can gain a foothold. The liberal ideas to fix our social problems have never worked, but they have always touted that it is their intentions that matter not the results. I intend to bring about world peace, by killing all that disagree with me. See my intentions are pure! I am a good person because my intentions are good and noble.



I am so sorry you feel this way. It is not smugness it is the benefit of age and education. All the things you believe are so important are just a smoke screen to keep you from noticing that you are being taken advantage of by the left. At your age what they say makes sense, I know because it made sense to me when I was 15 through 19 but I saw that I was being conned because their good intentions don’t feed people they keep people poor and hungry and most of all needy. You won’t understand this now but you will when you get older. Please don’t mistake my words as condescension it is just the dad in me talking.

*sighs* I give up, I'm mentally tired of arguing with you. If you actually research, if you actually read history and analyze it like I have, (Because I absolutely love history, and at one point I wanted to get my doctorates in history.) then you'll see what I see, as well as what others have.

Let me ask you a question: If you are calling the academics loons, and dismissing what I've told you as crazy, then why do you constantly use them?

In fact, okay, let me try again. You call the sources (the academics) loons, and dismissing something that those sources are saying as fact. So, then, why do you use them?

And you know what, I do get out. I don't live under a rock, and I have a brain that I use.



Don't worry, we all make mistakes, I forgive you. I mean, no one's perfect. (Just giving you a bad time by the way.)


~~Paladin~~

I'll reply to your comments later, right now I've got my Systems project I have to finish, and some studying biology.