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Grim Xiozan
Grim Xiozan
Join Date 08/2004
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Badnarik on Draft; Badnarik Arrested; Info 3rd Party Debate

Wow, my first LP supporting or informing article!

October 9, 2004 5:29:32 PM from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Get a Poster of this at Art.com [LINK], they have some awesome posters there!

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
DON’T NEED A CONGRESSMAN TO KNOW WHICH WAY THE DRAFT VOTE GOES
October 5 —
House votes down draft bill

Snippet from article:

Washington - It started out as a cheap publicity stunt by US Representative Charles Rangel (D-NY) – a bill to revive the military draft in America. Then House Republicans pulled a stunt of their own, bringing the bill to the House floor with limited debate so that they could vote against it. The bill went down, 402-2.

But Libertarian presidential candidate Michael Badnarik isn’t fooled. And he doesn’t believe most Americans are, either.

“Sure, they voted it down today,” says Badnarik, 50, of Austin, TX. “No politician with the brains to wangle a National Guard slot or a 4F rating during Vietnam is going to come out in support of the draft a month before the election.”

“It’s how they’ll vote in January that worries me.”

Link to full article

My Thoughts:
I still think it is a dead bill and dead issue based upon my military experience and the numbers that are in the military right now, no need to worry Mr. Badnarik or American Public, BUT I can see his point though it still would not come down to a draft.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

“IT IS NOT TOO SOON FOR HONEST MEN TO REBEL …”
October 8 —

Badnarik: I will debate or be arrested

Snippet from the article:

Michael Badnarik, the Libertarian Party’s 2004 presidential nominee, will debate John Kerry and George W. Bush in St. Louis on Friday. Or he’ll go to jail instead.

“A majority of Americans say that I should be included in the events sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates,” says Badnarik, 50, of Austin, Texas. “And the CPD, as a non-profit, has received special treatment from government on the requirement that they be non-partisan in their activities. Bi-partisan is not non-partisan.

“Unless I am allowed to participate, the debates become a massive campaign contribution to two of the candidates, illegal under the very campaign finance laws those two candidates have passed and signed as Senator and President.”

At 8 p.m. on Friday evening, Badnarik, along with the demonstrators expected to assemble in protest against his exclusion, will proceed to the police line erected to keep himself and the other legitimate candidates out during broadcast of the “bi-partisan campaign commercial.”

And then he will cross it.

Link to Full Article

UPDATE TO THAT SITUATION:
MICHAEL BADNARIK ARRESTED
October 8

8:38PM CT

The first report from St. Louis is in - and presidential candidates Michael Badnarik (Libertarian) and David Cobb (Green Party) were just arrested. Badnarik was carrying an Order to Show Cause, which he intended to serve the Commission on Presidential Debates (CPD). Earlier today, Libertarians attempted to serve these same papers at the Washington, D.C. headquarters of the CPD - but were stopped from approaching the CPD office by security guards.

Fred Collins reported to me from the ground that Badnarik and Cobb are in great physical condition and great spirit.

Link to Full Article

My Thoughts:
Yet more reason that the two party stranglehold on this country should be broken, after all last time I checked Abraham Lincoln WAS a Third Party Candidate, so was Ross Perot, more parties in power mean less corruption in power. The two party myth needs to be destroyed before that myth destroys the United States of America.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Finally, about the Third Party Debate.

Snippet from Badnarik's site about it:

Michael Badnarik will be squaring off against Green Party candidate David Cobb, Socialist Party candidate Walt Brown and Constitution Party candidate Michael Peroutka. Independent candidate Ralph Nader declined the invitation. George Bush and John Kerry were also invited, who thinks they’ll show?

Which I just saw on CSPAN that they will air it Sunday at 6:30 and 9:30 EST (?), I will update when I have full confirmation from CSPAN's website. Interesting debate, could be, just a change of pace from the other big debates, might inform oneself on Candidates besides the 'Corporate Two Proxies' (as Ralph lovingly calls them). I will watch it and link to the RealPlayer Clip afterwards, which CSPAN keeps a library of previous broadcasts in Realplayer.

That's all for now, from the Grim one.

Later,
Grim Xiozan
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Grim Xiozan
Grim Xiozan
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Reply #1 October 9, 2004 7:16:27 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
WOOHAH!

- GX
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Grim Xiozan
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Reply #2 October 10, 2004 12:25:43 AM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
Even WorldNetDaily has something on this:

Link

What the hell two-party myth-believing members of America? Why won't you see that more than two major parties can exist and more than two major parties have existed at the same time in the past.

- GX
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latour999
Join Date 09/2004
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Reply #3 October 11, 2004 12:58:13 AM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
I fully support having more political parties involved BUT...

The only way that there will be more than 2 parties anytime soon will be if the system is totally changed. The problem is that it is too winner-take-all. In order to win the election (or get anything), you must first win a state, no matter by what margin (pretty much anything in between 51-49, 99-1, and 34-33-33 with 3rd parties), and you will take all of the electoral votes in that state. If you can't win said state, but have a strong showing (say 30% for a third party), you get nothing. Then, you need to win enough states to get you that magic 270 electoral votes. 268 electoral votes will get you nothing. It is not the people that crush 3rd parties, it is the system. In Canada, we have a system in which every party can field a candidate in all or some of the 308 constituencies, including a party leader who usually takes a relatively "safe" constituency, or if he has been an MP for a while, his own (tell that to Jack Layton, he almost didn't win his seat). On election day, you vote for the candidate in your constituency. Whoever wins that constituency becomes a member of parliament (MP), and whichever party has the most MPs, the party leader becomes Prime Minister. And, as for all the other MPs, they still get to have their input on the government by voting on bills. This system allows smaller parties that don't win (ie: the NDP, a far left party that has never won an election, the closest they ever got was 43 seats in 1988) to still have a voice. In fact, we even have one party, the Bloc Quebecois, that only fields candidates in Quebec, and has no mathematical chance of winning, but is designed to represent the province of Quebec. The June 28 results were: Liberal: 135, Conservative: 99, Bloc: 54, NDP: 19, Independant: 1, Other (Green, Marijuana, Communist, Marxist-Leninist, PCP, Christian Heritage Party, Canadian Action Party, Independants): 0. I think that it is a good system, but would prefer more proportional representation, where 1/3rd of the seats are based on the popular vote, and allocated to parties. This would allow more 3rd (5th and 6th?) party representation. I'm not sure on the math, but I think that would result in 3-5 Green seats, and maybe a Marijuana seat.

Basically, after all that painfully long, idiotic rant that has nothing to do with this Michal Badnarik fellow and went off on a crazy-ass tangent, for the political landscape to change in America, the system needs to change first, to allow 3rd parties to flourish, instead of crushing them because they have little chance of becoming the big winner. Kinda sad and monopolistic, aint it?

Peace Out!!!

PS-if I could vote, it would probably be for Kerry, because I would kick myself in the ass if W. won by one vote, and I voted for someone who had basically no chance of winning. F***ing system!
and by the way, I REALLY don't like W.
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Grim Xiozan
Gene Nash
Join Date 12/2003
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Reply #4 October 11, 2004 1:54:03 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Badnarik: I will debate or be arrested


All I can say is, when you go looking for it you are likely to find it.

The previous story was about a publicity stunt. Interesting juxtaposition
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Grim Xiozan
Grim Xiozan
Join Date 08/2004
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Reply #5 October 11, 2004 12:58:04 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
The previous story was about a publicity stunt. Interesting juxtaposition


Well some people have to EARN their media coverage because they don't have it GIVEN FREELY like others, BUT their case was valid and they had the 'cause' papers to prove that they belonged in the debate, both Badnarik and Cobb.

- GX
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Grim Xiozan
Gene Nash
Join Date 12/2003
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Reply #6 October 11, 2004 7:55:47 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Well some people have to EARN their media coverage because they don't have it GIVEN FREELY like others


Look, if the third parties can't figure out how to get their message across that's their problem. There are tons of things they could be doing to get publicity and they should be doing it every day of every year election-year or not. If they are that incompetent they have no business having any power. Go to your local library, pick up a book on getting free publicity, and ask yourself how many of those things the third parties are doing.

It was a publicity stunt because they didn't have a snow ball's chance in hell of getting in there.

they had the 'cause' papers to prove that they belonged in the debate, both Badnarik and Cobb.


No, they didn't belong there. The rules have been -- since before the time of Perot -- that in order to qualify to be in the debate they must reach a certain level of public support. Again, if they can not muster that support in all these years then that is their problem. They need to make the case to the hearts and the minds of the people. They are failing. Until they do that, they aren't leaders and have no business being in the positions they seek.

The only right thing you said was that they have to earn it. They do, and they aren't. Getting court orders, staging publicity events, and whining about how the other kids won't let them play is not "earning it."

You're wrong in saying the others didn't earn it. The majority of Americans by choice belong to those two parties. Those two parties have exerted massive effort to make their postitions and people known. Due to those successful efforts they rule. There is no conspiracy there and no free ride. The ones looking for the free ride are the third parties who seek "parity" with the "free ride" they imagine is being given to the major parties.

Just to give three examples. I have never once received a mailing by a third party. I have never once seen a billboard by a third party. I have never receieved an emailing from a third party. The two major parties are doing that. You know what the two majors stand for because they have put in the hard work to make sure you know.

There's no lockout, just incompetence.
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Grim Xiozan
Grim Xiozan
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Reply #7 October 11, 2004 8:10:03 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
by choice


Wrong, you only happen to belong to those parties when you declare your party in the Primaries, otherwise everyone is not a direct part of that party, everybody is an independent who just happens to favor or through primary voting become associated with the RNC or the DNC, etc.

Just to give three examples. I have never once received a mailing by a third party. I have never once seen a billboard by a third party. I have never receieved an emailing from a third party. The two major parties are doing that. You know what the two majors stand for because they have put in the hard work to make sure you know.


That's called TAXPAYER MONEY AT WORK, seriously how ignorant can you be on the subject, the DNC and RNC candidates can send mail free because they usually hold a Government office, Third Party is working on all levels the Presidential candidate is not the only candidate fielded by that party, there are Greens in local Governments, after all you must start from the bottom and go up. Badnarik must have enough support since he is on the ballot in 48 states.

Seriously I want to wait until Gideon has access, he can put the argument more eloquently and more soundly than I myself can since I just associated with Libertarian Party.

- GX
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blogic
Join Date 05/2004
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Reply #8 October 11, 2004 8:17:03 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
The system is heavily biased against "minor" party candidates, which is why their candidates are relatively unknown, which is then used by the major parties to keep the system so biased. The debate issue is a great example of that bias: only well known candidates get into the debates, but voters don't learn about other candidates because they're excluded from the debates.
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Grim Xiozan
Gene Nash
Join Date 12/2003
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Reply #9 October 11, 2004 8:43:08 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Wrong, you only happen to belong to those parties when you declare your party in the Primaries, otherwise everyone is not a direct part of that party, everybody is an independent who just happens to favor or through primary voting become associated with the RNC or the DNC, etc.

. . .
That's called TAXPAYER MONEY AT WORK, seriously how ignorant can you be on the subject, the DNC and RNC candidates can send mail free because they usually hold a Government office, Third Party is working on all levels the Presidential candidate is not the only candidate fielded by that party, there are Greens in local Governments, after all you must start from the bottom and go up. Badnarik must have enough support since he is on the ballot in 48 states.


Xiozan, you don't know what you are talking about. That was so far from reality that to respond to it would be like arguing the existence of Bugs Bunny.

Both Xiozan and blogic's responses are a good example of why the third parties aren't getting anywhere, however. Instead of taking responsibility for getting their message across, they play the politics of blame. They'd rather exert effort on saying "They won't let me play! It's not fair!" then put in the effort to get their message across and build a base.

Look, as an individual you should take total responsibility for your communications, both in making sure you understand what is said to you and making sure that what you have said is understood by others. If someone misunderstands you, if you don't get your point across, you have two choices. You can blame that person for being a dumb idiot for not getting your very clear communication, or you can take responsibility for not having found a way to communicate effectively. The third parties are choosing the former.

You want to complain about franking privileges? Get in office and they are yours. Why can't they get in office? Incompetence.

Again, third parties want to be handed these things. No, you have to work for it. They aren't doing the right things in the right ways. I have no doubt they are putting in a lot of effort but it is not effective. Do they stop what isn't working and find out what will work? The results say no. So they do all this hard work, don't get what they want and look to blame. No. They were doing the wrong things in the wrong ways.

All you are showing me is exactly why they don''t deserve to be in charge of anything.

voters don't learn about other candidates because they're excluded from the debates.


Since the majority have made up their minds long before the debates what difference do you really think it would make?

Voters don't learn about them because they don't do a good enough job of putting themselves before the voters. If they had the support they would make the debates. Period.

Ross Perot gave an excellent template for how to run an independent campaign and get a third party off the ground. Has one of these third parties followed it since? How smart is it to not even pick up and follow the example of the most successful third party of the past 20 years?

If they can't figure out even that much, they have no business in office.
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Grim Xiozan
blogic
Join Date 05/2004
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Reply #10 October 11, 2004 8:52:22 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Ross Perot is a billionaire, and spent enormous amounts of money to broadcast his half hour infomercials across the country, during prime time. That was his "excellent template".
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Grim Xiozan
Gene Nash
Join Date 12/2003
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Reply #11 October 11, 2004 9:02:58 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Ross Perot is a billionaire, and spent enormous amounts of money to broadcast his half hour infomercials across the country, during prime time. That was his "excellent template".


There's a lot more to it than that. But, again, just make a flippant remark, don't delve into it for yourself and mine the gold from it, and continue to lose and not get anywhere. Not a wise choice, but it's yours to make.

However, let us look at that part of it. Are you telling me that in the 10 plus years since Perot a third party couldn't collect enough money to do 30 minute commercials? How about cable infomercials? How about 30 minute radio programs? That cheap enough for you?

And these brainiacs deserve to be in office why?
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Grim Xiozan
Grim Xiozan
Join Date 08/2004
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Reply #12 October 11, 2004 9:25:47 PM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
How about 30 minute radio programs?


Oh they do that but all Local Radio not National Radio you have to be a Senator, Congressman or woman, or President to get on there and deliver a Nation-wide radio address on NPR last time I heard.

Third Party Candidates also popup on CSPAN

Also if the LP was not favored by people than why are there 600 officials of the LP in forms of Government?
http://www.lp.org/organization/officials.php

Supreme Court upholds exclusion of third-party candidates
Link

Well well well, if it was so easy than why are they excluded by the Supreme Court.

- GX
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