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Scoring the debates

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Scoring the debates

Where we stand..

from JoeUser Forums

I judge Kerry as the winner again in this debate.  If I were to numerically score this based on my "gut" I'd give it like this:

Debate #1:
Kerry 5
Bush 2

Debate #2:
Cheney 2
Edwards 1

Debate #3:
Kerry 5
Bush 4

Total so far: Kerry/Edwards: 11  Bush/Cheney: 8

What do you think?

politics
14,036 views 50 replies
Reply #26 from JoeUser Forums Top
you haven't, anyway...


...
Reply #27 from PolMach Forums Top
...


I think you mean:

... --- ...



- GX
Elemental: Reforged
Reply #28 from PolMach Forums Top
I would say Bush clearly won. Kerry has all the advantage of hindsight and even then, what is his many "plans" in detail? Anyone can say "I have a plan" it's much harder to actually come up with and pull it off. Kerry is a shot in the dark and we cannot afford that in the world today. - ggray97

Get off your butt and got to Johnkerry.com, and read his plans. You’re a lazy voter, something that America cannot afford in the world to day. You should have to take a test to prove that you’re smart enough to vote. Barring that, you should have to vote using essay answers:

I cast my vote for president for George W. Bush because his daughters are hot, and Laura reminds me of the lunch lady I used to dream about in high school.

Then those of us, who do more than watch TV, and post to internet sites, could easily decide the worthiness of the vote.


Reply #29 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think you mean: ... --- ...


?
Reply #30 from PolMach Forums Top
?


Morse code joke, I figured everybody would really know what that meant but I guess not.
...---...
Dot Dot Dot Dash Dash Dash Dot Dot Dot

Break it down into letters and what do you got?

S O S



- GX
Reply #31 from JoeUser Forums Top
took me a while Gx. I thought you meant (thinking)- (pause) (still thinking) whoops
Reply #32 from PolMach Forums Top
Well that could work too.

- GX
Reply #33 from JoeUser Forums Top
Oh no! Youv'e got me there! Pointing this out completely validates your point, because I could never point to one stance that Bush has that is against his religion. No sireeee...


drmiler, sorry for that juvenile response.

To answer your question...

Kerry has never had an abortion so he is not guilty of that sin. Having the thought that others can have an abortion I think would be classified by the catholic church as a venial sin (10 "our fathers and 5 "hail marys", bless you my son, go in peace to love and serve the Lord).

Killing someone is a major sin in any version of Christianity. That is something Bush is guilty of and I would assume Kerry is too since he has been in combat.
Reply #34 from JoeUser Forums Top
I imagine the Catholic Church doesn't consider soldiers killing soldiers murder, but then I'm not Catholic, so I don't have the right to speak for them.

"Having the thought that others can have an abortion I think would be classified by the catholic church as a venial sin "


That, I think, isn't a good description of what Kerry is doing. He is openly stating that a tenet of the Catholic religion is wrong, and promoting the practice as a fundamental right. I would say, also, that abortion is just a drop in the bucket of things about which Kerry differs with the RCC.

Sure, just thinking abortion is right might be a venial sin, but actively, functionally opposing the church and prmoting practices considered heinous goes a tad further. A few hundred years back we wouldn't be having and election, we'd be having a Kerry roast...
Reply #35 from JoeUser Forums Top
That, I think, isn't a good description of what Kerry is doing.


True.

As for Kerry's positions/actions, I am not taking the stance that they don't conflict with the RCC--obviously they do. I am saying that that this is also true of Bush--in regards to his version of Christianity.
Reply #36 from JoeUser Forums Top
"He is openly stating that a tenet of the Catholic religion is wrong ... functionally opposing the church and promoting practices considered heinous"

Sorry, I just tuned in to this conversation. Are we talking about Bush's support of the death penalty?
Reply #37 from JoeUser Forums Top
Bush isn't Catholic, and the death penalty isn't universally opposed in Christianity. On the contrary, most protestant faiths admit the necessity of it.
Reply #38 from JoeUser Forums Top
Bush is a United Methodist. This is what the United Methodist Church has to say regarding the death penalty: "The denomination opposes the death penalty. Bush supports it, while Kerry opposes it."
Reply #39 from JoeUser Forums Top
Nice try, blogic. I went to a Methodist college.

There are methodists, bishops, and others way up in the church, that openly question the divinity of Christ, that promote homosexual lifestyles, that are openly, rabidly pro-abortion etc., etc. I took 3 years of religion at said college and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that differing with the letter of Methodist doctrine not only isn't a problem, but can often be something to brag about and gets you credit and attention.

There are also Methodist churches throughout rural America that you would consider charismatic christian or Baptist if you hadn't looked at the sign outside. Doctrinally they don't resemble the standard Methodist dogma in the least. I used to drive a guy from church to church as a circuit minister and the congregations at come churches loved him, and at some churches wanted to lynch him.

They have a problem because Bush differs with the church via values leaning to the CONSERVATIVE side. When their own Bishops espouse values far, far left of Methodist doctrine, you don't hear a peep...


Reply #40 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply #33 By: Abe Cubbage - 10/11/2004 4:17:58 PM
Oh no! Youv'e got me there! Pointing this out completely validates your point, because I could never point to one stance that Bush has that is against his religion. No sireeee...


drmiler, sorry for that juvenile response.

To answer your question...

Kerry has never had an abortion so he is not guilty of that sin. Having the thought that others can have an abortion I think would be classified by the catholic church as a venial sin (10 "our fathers and 5 "hail marys", bless you my son, go in peace to love and serve the Lord).


No he has never. But the fact remains that he not only agrees with abortion, But supports it! Which according to catholic idealology is a SIN. Crips he isn't even supposed to be recieving holy communion because of that. What your about to read is from the catholic church website.


COL Home > Featured Today > Headline

Headline
Catholics, John Kerry, Viagra, and Sin


By Matt Abbott
Op/Ed

I don’t know about you, but I’m sick and tired of seeing ads for Viagra (and its “brother” medicines) everywhere you look. You can’t get away from it, really. It’s on the television, in the sports stadiums, and in tons of “spam” e-mails. There's even a Viagra clock. And the latest “devil” ad campaign for Viagra – showing supposedly sex-hungry men growing devil’s horns - is nothing short of appalling.

Then there’s the upcoming election. The Iraq war. Forged documents. Debates. John Kerry. Catholics. Abortion. Sin.

Which brings me to my rhetorical moral question of the day: Which of these is sinful – A) a Catholic voting for pro-abortion John Kerry or B) a Catholic married man using Viagra? Well, if you’re a liberal “Catholic,” there is no such thing as sin, save for voting Republican. If, however, you’re a faithful Catholic, then choice A could very well be sinful – not to mention unthinkable - but not so with choice B.




Link

BTW just an FYI catholics consider it a "mortal" sin not a venial sin. Nice try.
Reply #41 from JoeUser Forums Top
BeliefNet is instructive on this issue:
What exactly is the position of the American bishops on this?

While a handful of outspoken bishops feel pro-choice Catholic politicians should be denied Communion, the majority have not taken a strong stance. In June, the U.S. bishops' meeting in Colorado decided to leave the question of Communion for pro-choice politicians up to individual bishops.

While a handful of outspoken bishops feel pro-choice Catholic politicians should be denied Communion, the majority have not taken a strong stance. In June, the U.S. bishops' meeting in Colorado decided to leave the question of Communion for pro-choice politicians up to individual bishops.

Is this just about Democratic Catholic politicians? I don't hear anything about denying Communion to Republican Rudy Guiliani, the former mayor of New York, or Arnold Schwarzenegger, pro-choice Republican governor of California.

It appears there have been no loud calls for pro-choice Republican Catholics to stay away from Communion. In the dioceses where bishops have been most critical of pro-choice leaders, Republican politicians tend to be pro-life.

Judie Brown of the American Life League has accused California bishops of giving Arnold Schwarzenegger "special treatment." Cardinal Roger Mahony of the Los Angeles diocese, where Schwarzenegger attends church, has indicated that he does not believe in denying Communion to people.
Reply #42 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply #41 By: blogic - 10/11/2004 6:39:29 PM
BeliefNet is instructive on this issue:
What exactly is the position of the American bishops on this?

While a handful of outspoken bishops feel pro-choice Catholic politicians should be denied Communion, the majority have not taken a strong stance. In June, the U.S. bishops' meeting in Colorado decided to leave the question of Communion for pro-choice politicians up to individual bishops.

While a handful of outspoken bishops feel pro-choice Catholic politicians should be denied Communion, the majority have not taken a strong stance. In June, the U.S. bishops' meeting in Colorado decided to leave the question of Communion for pro-choice politicians up to individual bishops.

Is this just about Democratic Catholic politicians? I don't hear anything about denying Communion to Republican Rudy Guiliani, the former mayor of New York, or Arnold Schwarzenegger, pro-choice Republican governor of California.

It appears there have been no loud calls for pro-choice Republican Catholics to stay away from Communion. In the dioceses where bishops have been most critical of pro-choice leaders, Republican politicians tend to be pro-life.

Judie Brown of the American Life League has accused California bishops of giving Arnold Schwarzenegger "special treatment." Cardinal Roger Mahony of the Los Angeles diocese, where Schwarzenegger attends church, has indicated that he does not believe in denying Communion to people.


I would consider my link a littke closer to absolute since it came direct from catholic.org. ( "The" Catholic website. It don't get much more catholic than this unless you go to the Vatican's page.). Here is something from the UK on the subject: Link
Reply #43 from JoeUser Forums Top
Is this just about Democratic Catholic politicians? I don't hear anything about denying Communion to Republican Rudy Guiliani, the former mayor of New York, or Arnold Schwarzenegger, pro-choice Republican governor of California.


Thing is, Mr Schwarz and and Guiliani arent running for president.
Kerry, on the other hand is.

Now, its not so much the fact that Kerry supports abortion, but that he calls himself 'catholic' and at the same time, completely ignores his religion's teachings on the subject.
'Faith' for him is a chance to snag more votes, nothing more.
Disgusts me... A presidential candidate making a mockery of his own religion to win an election.
Reply #44 from JoeUser Forums Top
drmiler, you posted someone's opinion.

I am not really sure what else to say.
Reply #45 from PolMach Forums Top
drmiler, you posted someone's opinion.


That someone being a Catholic who works for Catholic.org, THE Catholic Site second only to the Vatican.

- GX
Reply #46 from JoeUser Forums Top
Bush is ignoring his church's official view on the death penalty ("The" United Methodist website. It don't get much more United Methodist than this). I could say he's do it simply to snag more votes from the overwhelming pro-death penalty majority of conservatives -- making a mockery of his own religion to win an election -- but I can't read his mind. It seems as easily explained by remembering he grew up in pro-death penalty Texas, while Kerry grew up in pro-choice Massachusetts.

Regarding Catholic disagreement over the issue of pro-choice candidates taking abortion, I don't think I'm in a better position than bishops to judge whether the issue is black and white. Given that there is disagreement on the issue, you might think to look at the Pope's practice:
On January 6, 2001, at the concluding mass of the Jubilee, John Paul II personally gave communion to Francesco Rutelli, a practicing Catholic and a premier center-left candidate for this year’s planned elections in Italy.

Rutelli had been, as a member of the Radical Party, one of the most active supporters of Italy’s abortion law, which is among the most permissive in the world. And he continued, as a Catholic, to maintain publicly “pro-choice” positions.
Reply #47 from PolMach Forums Top
January 6, 2001


Three years back, this whole communion thing got started in 2003, so...got anything that is more recent?

- GX
Reply #48 from JoeUser Forums Top
Bush isn't ignoring it, he is differing with it. In the Methodist Church, that appears to be pretty acceptable. To be a pro-abortion or pro gay-rights Catholic, though, seems like an oxymoron. Maybe they are embracing more diverse ideas these days, but given how they treat rogue preists with such values, I tend to think not. I don't think you'll see a RC bishop that doubts the divinity of Christ and is pro-abortion. You do see that in the Methodist Church. You think it is more permissible for a Methodist to differ with the dogma leaning to the left, but not to the right?

Reply #49 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply #44 By: Abe Cubbage - 10/11/2004 7:29:28 PM
drmiler, you posted someone's opinion.

I am not really sure what else to say.


The first was an op-ed but I didn't post the whole thing. But the link on the OTHER hand is NOT op-ed.
Reply #50 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply #46 By: blogic - 10/11/2004 7:45:48 PM
Bush is ignoring his church's official view on the death penalty ("The" United Methodist website. It don't get much more United Methodist than this). I could say he's do it simply to snag more votes from the overwhelming pro-death penalty majority of conservatives -- making a mockery of his own religion to win an election -- but I can't read his mind. It seems as easily explained by remembering he grew up in pro-death penalty Texas, while Kerry grew up in pro-choice Massachusetts.

Regarding Catholic disagreement over the issue of pro-choice candidates taking abortion, I don't think I'm in a better position than bishops to judge whether the issue is black and white. Given that there is disagreement on the issue, you might think to look at the Pope's practice:
On January 6, 2001, at the concluding mass of the Jubilee, John Paul II personally gave communion to Francesco Rutelli, a practicing Catholic and a premier center-left candidate for this year’s planned elections in Italy.

Rutelli had been, as a member of the Radical Party, one of the most active supporters of Italy’s abortion law, which is among the most permissive in the world. And he continued, as a Catholic, to maintain publicly “pro-choice” positions.


Go read #42 and check out the link while your at it.