Erathoniel posts:

Thanks for coming on board Erathoniel, regarding Scripture to support Catholicism,

please check out my last post # 25. I'd like to hear from you again after you've read it.

KFC POSTS:



The Church has a right to command her members. She wishes to be a spiritual mother to all the Faithful and so does everything possible for their spiritual welfare. This entails the making of laws which Catholics in conscience must obey.

God established 3 spheres of authority, the family, the government and the Church. Every authority has the right to make laws for the good of those within that sphere. We have a duty to obey those laws.

Christ declared that He makes His will known through the Chruch, "He that heareth you, heareth Me: and he that despeth you, despiseth Me. St.Luke 10:16.

He also declared how extensive the powers of the Church are: "Amen, I say to you, whasoever you shall bind upon earth shall be bound in Heaven and whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven."

The Apostles claimed that their right to legislate came from GOd: "For it hath seemed good to the Holy GHost and us..." Acts. 15:28. "For you know what precepts I have given to you by the Lord Jesus Christ." 1Thess. 4:2.

It's also clear from the NT that the Chruch has the power to punish those who disobey her. "And if he will not hear the Chruch, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican."

There are many commandments of the CC and all are found in the 1, 752 Canons of the Code of Canon Law but those are usually called the Six Commandments of the Chruch and concern the ordinary spiritual life of the Faithful in general.

The first of the Six Commandments of the CC commands us to "Keep Sundays and holy days of obligation holy, by attending Mass and resting from servile works."

The very law of natural (Natural Law) demands that a person should devote a certain amount of time to the worship of God. God Himself has commanded us to keep the Sabbath holy. The CC tells us how we must observe these precepts of the Natural Law and the positive law of GOd.

For Catholics, it's a mortal sin to neglect to attend Holy Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation. The reason is to miss Mass on these days is a transgression of the law in a grave matter and is disobedience to the highest spiritual authority on earth. To miss Mass is to deprive God the worship and honor due Him and it is to deprive our souls of many of the Graces we need for our own salvation.

KFC POSTS: #9



"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved..."Acts 16:31

Even the devils believe, so from this we know that belief can't be all there is.


Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone that saith to me, Lord, LOrd, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doth the will of my father who is in Heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven."


For our salvation, beside believing (having faith) we must live out that belief in hope and charity according to the salvific will of God.

1Tim 2:4, "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of truth."

So, here the salvific will of God is to come to the knowledge of truth, right?

Which can mean nothing else except and come to the knowledge of His Church which St.Paul calls, in the very next chapter of Tim 3:15, "the Chruch of the living GOd, the pillar and ground of truth."

To sound a little like George Carlin for a bit, "Father, what if I have ebola and I'm extremely contagious - but I'm not sick enough yet that I can't make it to Mass. Would it be a sin to miss Mass then, Father?"

My problem with a lot of Catholics, and a lot of Christians, and my own self, is that we just HAVE to go to church on Sunday, and then the rest of the week is spent of the world.

Ha, what a picture that conjures George Carlin saying that!

As far as missing Mass, people know in their heart of hearts whether or not they've excused themselves from the obligation of attending for a valid or good reason...

Being sick, especially contagiously so..having to care for others...having to travel far distances...those who must work or are forbidden by employers to take Sundays off...are all valid excuses.



I know what you're talking about as to the second part of your comment, I've certainly seen that too. But having said that, isn't it also true, that in general, those who attend Mass or Church services on a regular basis are better armed to deal with the world, the flesh and the devil?

Perhaps better armed, but that's no good if you're not willing to shoot. Or take the safety off.

Lula there is a difference in believing in God with your mind (as the devils you pointed out) and one that believes in his whole heart, soul and mind.

Paul said this:

"That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead YOU SHALL BE SAVED.
For with the heart man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation...........For whosoever shall CALL UPON THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."

Romans 10

Nothing is said about being a member of the CC. Nothing is said about being baptized to be saved. Nothing is said about works. Over and over repeatedly it's all about belief.

Notice what you quoted:



Notice what happens when I highlight differently.

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone that saith to me, Lord, LOrd, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doth the will of my father who is in Heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven."

What he's saying...and this goes so perfectly with the whole of scripture is....not everyone who SAYS......what he's saying is you have to have more than a SAID faith. Not everyone who says Lula.

You have to have more than a said faith...OK. I'll go along with that...but....the point is we can't stop there because Christ goes on and says, "but he that doeth the will of My Father....".

The point of the passage is we can't stop only with having belief...it takes believing and doing...both. It takes both.

In order to do God's will it is not enough to speak about the things of God, there must be consistency between what one preaches--what one says-- and what one does..."The kingdom of God does not consist in talk but in power, 1Cor.4:20, "Be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves." James 1:22.

there is no way around that one has to practice what one preaches to produce fruit which accords with one's words. Anyone who does not live in accordance with what he says ends up saying things which are contrary to faith.

It's only belief that brings one to salvation Lula. Not works. Our works have to be evident afterwards but they are not going to get us into heaven. Only belief is the requirement for salvation. Works are very important but are not going to save anyone. That's why many point to the thief on the cross as an example. You can see also in 1 Cor 3 where some will make it to heaven but all their works will burn up because they were not worthy of glorifying God. They did nothing. Philip told the Jailer...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Over and over we see these things.



yes, agree totally with all you said here. Our works are evidence of who we belong to.

 

KFC POSTS:

It is both true belief and love of God and neighbor.  Love of God and neighbor is good works.

He that doth the will of My Father .... Love is doing the wll of our Father in Heaven...."If you love me you will keep my commandments." True belief is a state of mind, heart and soul, True Love is doing from the mind, heart and soul.

 

   

 

 

quote]Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doth the will of my father who is in Heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven."[/quote]

KFC POSTS:

KFC POSTS:

You are repeating  Protestant oral tradition here.

It's your inclusion of the word "ONLY" that has you in contradiction to what Christ says in Matthew 7:21. You are repeating what Luther taught and for over 400 or so years has become Protestant dogma,  justification by faith alone (only), Sola Fides. This is Luther's theology not Christ's.

We must not only believe in Him; we must love Him as well. Satan believed but he didn't love. Think about it.

It is both true belief and true love of God and neighbor.  True Love of God and neighbor is good works.

"but he that doth the will of My Father" .... Love is doing the will of our Father in Heaven....Christ said, "If you love me you will keep my commandments." True belief is a state of mind, heart and soul, True Love is doing from the mind, heart and soul.

 

   

 

 

[very 'disappointed' tone of voice]

Are you a Sunday Morning Christian, Jyth?

Tsk. Tsk. Tsk.

we've already been over this Lula. Belief is with heart, soul and mind.

You're repeating yourself here...and making me do so to remind you.



Forget Luther. Will ya? Go back and read Romans 10:9-10 which is what I outlined already. It's pretty clear. Believe with your heart and confess with your mouth. That's it.

The just shall live by faith....not by works, not by anything. Faith is the only requirement for salvation. Works are evidence of that salvation. We are saved to do good works....we are NOT saved by our good works.

Lula posts:

KFC POSTS:

KFC POSTS:

You are the one who has to forget Luther or more specifically his doctrines...You tell me to read Romans 10 and then proceed to interpret Romans 10:9-10 strictly according to Luther's plan of salvation---by "faith alone". Interpeting this way is holding the Scriptures hostage, forcing them to furnish support for Luther's version. The notion that one is saved beyond all doubt with no effort beyond "believing" is straight out of Luther.

You say, "Faith is the only requirement for salvation. Believe with your heart and confess with your mouth. That's it." No, KFC, that's not it.....Faith is only the first PART OF what it takes to be saved. Faith is the beginning, the foundation and the root of salvation. The beginning becasue no one can be converted to God unless he recognizes Him as his supernatural end and aim. The foundation becasue upon faith all the other predisposing acts rests securely.

Here in Romans 10 St.Paul was teaching faith in Christ is saving faith. Faith in what else? Faith means accepting Jesus as Lord and submitting permanently to His rule..and to His teachings...the whole of Christ's truths...every one of them. Go back and see that Romans 6 has already shown us that this is a requirement which involves the whole of life. Faith also means firmly believing those revealed truths which elaborate the basic confession of faith in the Lord, in this case in particular, "that God raised Him from the dead". Believing in the Risen Christ is the root of the Christian creed becasue in and with Christ God has raised us to life to the life we now possess in faith, faith which hopes but does not yet see 8:24.

All of the following passages indicate that it takes more than believing for one's salvation.

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them; He it is that loveth me. St.John 14:21. Love....is the fulfilling of the law Rom.13:10. He became, to all that obey Him, the cause of eternal salvation Heb. 5:9. "He who hath saith that he knoweth him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1St.Jn.2:4.

Keeping His commandments is doing something...it's good works of charity (love). Not keeping the commandments or breaking them is doing something as well...it's sinning. Does serious, deliberate sinning threaten one's salvation even if one believes?

JYTHIER POSTS:

Lula posts:

St.Paul's Epistle to the Philippians chapter 3 has a lot to say about the Christian life. Every baptized Christian is called to holiness. I'm thinking of the song, Let there be (Christ's) peace on earth and let it begin with me...

One person at a time must strive for Christ's peace on earth beginning with those around us and then stretching out into society. We need to strive to struggle against the evil of the world in the incidents of everyday life and not be part of it. It's not an easy task, but God will give us the strength and necessary graces to do so.

One of the Christian vocations is sharing knowledge of Christ with the world. You did that. You shared information that your pastor had given you on Sunday about the different levels of Heaven with us here on JU.

One early Christian writer wrote: Everything that grows begins small. It is by constant and progressive feeding that it gradually grows big. So I say to you if you want to be a thorough-going Christian and I know you do, even though you find it difficult to conquer yourself or to keep climbing upwards with this poor body, ---then you will have to be very attentive to the minutest of details, for the holiness that our Lord demands of you is to be achieved by carrying out with love of God your work and your daily duties, and these will almost always consist of ordinary little things. J. Escriva, Friends of God 7

Yes, it's doing something...but IT'S NOT earning us a spot in heaven. How do you put that with


"our righteousness is AS filthy rags?"

You're mixing the law with grace. This is legalism.

Jesus said that in order to get to heaven the people had to be MORE righteous than the Pharisees...who were considered to be quite righteous in their day.

How can that be asked the people? It CAN'T. The only way to secure a place in heaven is the righteousness of Christ. Our works, are as filthy rags to God.

Obeying his commandments is out of love. We obey him because we love him....not because we are earning anything. As children we showed our love to our parent's by obeying them. It was evidence of who we belonged to.



Faith + works=justification (legalism)

Faith=justification-works (antinomianism)

Faith=justification + works (Biblical)


You are expousing the exact opposite of biblical doctrine when you use works as a basis for going to heaven....it's no different than the Muslims or all the other cults you so despise. They may have diff doctrine but when you wipe away all the dross you are left with the three examples above.

KFC, you have asserted three times now Luther's doctrine of justification by "faith only".








I asked a question that specifically addresses your 3 time assertion...

Lula posts:

So, before I rebut your #41 post, would you please answer yes or no and explain/support your answer?

Thanks.

The answer is NO.

Once we have been justified we are justified. Our sinning, while being disobedient and not in favor with God has no bearing on our salvation. Nothing can separate us from God, not even our own sinful desires.

Paul said, where sin abounds grace abounds. Does that mean we should keep on sinning willfully? Heavens no was his reply.

After justification, comes sanctification and that's an ongoing work of God. So when one comes to Christ initially, it's not like he's all of a sudden a saint. It takes time as one gets to know his savior to be made more into his likeness. We grow spiritually just like one grows physically. Some at diff rates than others. We are constantly being sanctified until we die. We should be able to look back and see growth in our lives.

How about if one believes but dies with serious, deliberate sin...does he still get into Heaven?

If this is so, what does Apoc. 21:27 mean? "Nothing unclean (some versions have "defiled") shall enter it (Heaven)?

Did you know that Luther threw out the Book of Ecclesiasticus? Why? It contradicts his basic dogma: free and effortless salvation...

First of all......Peter talked about this. I've brought it up before. The answer is yes.

Second of all.....this is hypethetical. I usually hate these types of questions.

Third of all......a Christian (true one) is not usually going to be doing serious deliberate sin.....but admit yes, we are sinners and sinners do sin. It really depends on the maturity of the Christian as well. All Christians are sinners. Sinners will go to heaven but they are regenerate sinners.



This is true. We are ALL unclean. We are ONLY made clean by the Blood of Jesus. God sees us washed in HIS blood. We are covered in his blood. Remember the Passover? Those who put the blood over their doors were safe? They didn't do anything to make them less of a sinner. They just were covered in HIS blood. That's the same with us. No diff.

So when God looks at us as naked in our human state, when we come to Christ we are covered in his blood that makes us clean. You may want to further your research by looking up scriptures that have to do with blood, nakedness, clean, etc.

Adam and Eve are a picture of this. While sinners, God covered them....it wasn't them. It was God. An animal's blood had to be shed for this restoration. They did nothing. God did all the work. That's what Paul was getting at when he said, "while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Also remember....."there is no remission of sins without the shedding of blood." That's how sins are paid for. Not by works. Not by baptism. But by blood. And the examples are abounding in scripture.

Enough already. I've never said or used our works as a sole basis for going to heaven. Not once, for I don't believe it.

St.James 2:14-19 explains it: "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warmed, and filled, without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some will say, "you have faith and I have works" Show me your faith apart from your works and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe---and shudder."

Then you said I'm mixing the law with grace calling it legalism and gave this equation:
Faith + works = justification (legalism)

No, this isn't legalism; it's what St. Paul told the Galatians...as I'll point out below. Luther totally misunderstood the meaning of St.Paul and you're here looking at this through Luther's glasses.


Lula posts





This is Luther's dogma and I know you sincerely believe it..problem is--it's not Christ's teaching that He gave to His Apostles.

I agree, it's perfectly true we are justified by faith, but not by faith "alone" as you keep asserting. St.Paul told the Galatians how we are justified which completely refutes Luther. "We are justified by a faith that worketh by charity." Gal.5:6

What I highlighted above and the quotes below show that's just what I've been saying. What is charity? It's love of God with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength for His own sake and love of neighbor as ourself.



I even repeated it:




Just so you're clear what I mean by "works by charity" from here on I'll describe what I believe is the rule of life we must follow if we hope to be saved.

We must follow the rule of life taught by Christ.

We must love God above ALL things and with our whole heart, mind, soul and strength.

We are bound always and everywhere to hate sin and to love God. We must hate sin above all other evils so as never to be resolved never to commit a willful sin.

We must learn to love God by begging Him to teach us to love Him.
The love of God will lead us to always seek to please Him.

We must also obey CHrist's command to love one another...that is all persons without exception, for His sake.

We are to love one another by wishing well one another, and praying for one another, and by never allowing ourselves any thought, word or deed to the injury of anyone.

We are also bound to love our enemies by not only forgiving them from our hearts, but also by wishing them well, and praying for them.

Christ gave us another rule in these words: "if a man will come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily, and follow me."

We are to deny ourselves by giving up our own will and by going against our own inclinations (which are prone to evil) and passions. If these are not self-corrected by self denial, they will certainly carry us to Hell.

We take up our cross daily by submitting with patience to the labors and sufferings of this short life and by bearing them willingly for the love of God.

We are to follow our Lord by following in His footsteps and imitating His virtues which are meekness, humility, and obedience.

The enemies which we must fight against all the days of our life are the devil, the flesh and the world. By the flesh I mean our own corrupt inclinations and passions and by the world I mean the false maxims of society and those who love the vanities, riches and pleasures better than God.

We must watch, pray and fight against all their suggestions and temptations.

In this warfare against the devil, the world and the flesh, we must depend on God only for "I can do all things in Him who strengthens me."

This is typical. You're pulling something out of context to make your point. Let's look at the whole context.

V1-For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore and do not submit AGAIN to the yoke of slavery.

V2-Look; I, Paul say to you that if you accept circumcision Christ will be of no advantage to you.

V3-I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.

v4-You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law, you have fallen away from grace.

v5-For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.

v6-For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumsion counts for anything, but only faith working through love.

What Paul is saying here is the law (circumcision) and grace (Christ) simply do not mix. Paul is saying becuase the law is a unit obedience to it cannot be selective (3:10).

What caused them to fall (v4)? Working trying to fulfill the law to be saved. It's works based theology that Paul is going after here. The outward is totally unimportant and worthless, except as it genuinely reflects inner righteousness.

Faith working through love is aying that our life in the Spirit is not static and inactive but alive. Believers are created in Christ for good works which God prepared beforehand for them that we should walk in them. But their working is the product of their faith NOT A SUBSTITUTE for it. The do NOT work for righteousess but OUT OF righteousness through the motivating power of love. In doing so they walk in a manner pleasing to God.

The person who lives by FAITH works under the internal compulsion of LOVE and does NOT need the outward compulsion of the law.

Lula posts:

KFC POSTS:


The whole context actually strengthens and confirms my point.

What's my point..that we ARE NOT justified by faith "alone". St.Paul tells us exactly what it takes to be justified and it clearly isn't Luther's doctrine of "faith alone".

Christ demonstrated that He is superior to the MOsaic Law. The standard of conduct He put before us is for everyone, everywhere at all times, unlike the Mosaic Law, which was specifically for the Jews. Christ reduced the precepts of the OLd Law, set them aside in favor of His New COvenant of Grace, to the 2 commandments on which "dependeth the whole law and prophets".

St. Paul contrasted the salvation which comes through grace, of which faith is the instrument Gal.2:16, with the requirements of the Mosaic Law. The Law did not remit sin Heb. 10:4, or confer justification Gal.3:11-14, or give the life of grace, the supernatural life of the soul 3:21. Jusification and salvation are the result of grace, with faith in Jesus Christ as essential condition. He tells them if someone turns to the Law for justification, then Christ died in vain. 2:21.

The Jews need Christian justification as much as anyone else, becasue they,the Greeks and the whole pagan world are in the bondage of sin, as the Scriptures prove. Rom. 3:10; 23. "All have sinned and need the glory of GOd." Some imagine that there is a guarantee that the punishment of man's sins will be averted Rom. 2:3-4. St.Paul replies to this foolish hope; God will give everyone his due according to his works.

Faith comes before the outward profession of it: "For with the heart, we believe unto justice; but with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation." This was not a new thought. Read Deut.30:10-14 preferably from a DR version becasue the KJV has changed the words.

Luther reinterpreted this and mislead his followers..He said, Man must persuade himself that he has nothing to do with the law and that no sins can condemn him; nay, let him, so to say, boast of his sinfulness and thus take the weapon out of the devil's hand." We are there, KFC. I asked does serious, deliberate sinning threaten one's salvation even if one believes.....and you answered NO.


What St.Paul is teaching here is that faith, unless it be joined to hope and love (charity), neither makes us one with Christ nor loving members of His body. That's why it's rightly said that "faith by itself, if it has no works is dead" and that "in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith worketh through love."

Therefore, a person who has faith (who believes) but does not live in the grace of God is really kind of a dead person. Christ said that His disciples would be recognized by their charity becasue faith begets hope, and hope leads to love. St.Augustine on this teaching of St.Paul wrote: "When one asks if someone is good, one does not check to see what he believes or what he hopes for, but what it is he loves. For someone who loves rightly certainly also believes and hopes rightly; but he who does not love believes in vain, even if what he believes is true. ...Therefore this is the faith in Christ, which the Apostle extols--"faith which works through love." Enchiridion, chap.117.






What I highlighted from St.Augustine also knocks Luther's notion of salvation "by faith alone" out the window. "Justification by faith alone" is a false doctrine KFC.

Then why does Jesus pray for all those who believe in Him?

St.John 17 is Christ's Prayer that takes place at the end of the Last Supper. After praying that His Sacrifice on the Cross be acceptable to the Father, He then prays for unity.  

Eph. 4:4-5 explains what that unity is ..... One Shepherd, one flock, one Faith, etc.....

 

Let's look at the passage....

v. 20, "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that they may all be one...."

You asked, "why does Jesus pray for all those who believe in Him?"....but notice, Verse 20 doesn't have the word "all" in it.

V. 20 says pray also for those who will believe in me...and then notice how that first part of the passage is qualified by the words, "through their message".

So, that puts a completely different slant on it doesn't it? 

 In Verse 20, Christ, after praying for His Apostles and disciples in particular, "them alone", Christ then prays that those who  would afterwards, by their preaching, believe in Him.... that those might be one.

The qualifier in v. 20 that those who shall believe in Him by virtue of His Apostles and disciples, and their successors  preaching the message, is very important because even the demons believe in Him, yet they certainly aren't included amongst those whom Our Lord prayed for.

Christ's prayer for unity is a great comfort to us.