Refinery vs Trade center

The answer is "it depends". Generally, I try to get all my systems covered by 3 refineries, but its no big deal if, for whatever reason, its not possible. I just make sure all my ice / volcanic plants are (unless I'm awash in one resource, then I'll ignore the appropriate planet if that works better)

According to my math (but not any experience, I'm still a new player) it takes over twice as long for a refinery to become profitable vs. a trade port. Worst case scenario for a trade port is your longest trade route is 4 jumps, so each makes 1.3 creds/sec. They cost 750 Credits 100 Metal 125 Crystal which is about 1200 credits, give or take, which means it takes 15 minutes for them to break even. With a better trade route that time is diminished further - 12 minutes at 8 jumps, 10 minutes at 12 jumps. But the refinery is pulling 0.06 resources per second per extractor AND costs double what a trade port does.. so with 8 extractors that's 33 minutes, 10 extractors it's 28, 12 it's 24. Also, refineries can only be stacked to 3x before the further ones lose benefit, but trade ports can stack indefinitely (just try not to shorten the route when you build more).

So maybe I'm missing something and am fantastically wrong, but given you want to use up all your slots to the best benefit, I'd not bother researching refineries and add a ton of trade ports instead.

My experience is that this is sound advice.

Well, you don't spam refineries, that is for sure. The nice thing about tradeports is they are kind of no brainers, and under most circumstances, superior to refineries. They are also superior early game. You also want at least one in most systems to create a longer trade route.

Now, assuming one is awash in cash, I don't think we would value resources as less than 300cr per 100 resource. I know I tend to buy freely whenever I see it has fallen below 350ish on the black market.

So... assuming the resources are worth 3 cr each:

Tradeport: 750/100/125 = 1425cr value
Refinery: 1500/125/175 = 2400cr value

Lets say we have a 5 length traderoute going, so at 1.5cr/s we see it pays off in 950s. Almost 16 minutes. Not bad.

Lets say we picked a good spot for our refinery, with 10 extractors in the domain. In a long game a good spot usually presents itself. Small games, you probably won't even get around to researching refineries.

So.... at the base .06 per extractor, we get .6 resources per second. At our 3cr per resource conversion, this yields 1.8cr/s.

2400cr refinery value / (1.8cr/s) = 1333s or 22.2 minutes.

But wait! We know this well placed refinery is producing 1.8cr/s as opposed to 1.5cr/s. At which point does this refinery actually start to overtake the tradeport in value?

We know the tradeport is unprofitable for 16 minutes and the refinery for 22, so at which point are they equal? (We know afterwards, the refinery will have passed the tradeport.)

(X - 16min) * 90cr/min = (X - 22min) * 108cr/min
90(X-16m) = 108(X-22m)
90X-1440m = 108X - 2376m
936m = 18X
52m = X

So at 52 minutes after construction, this refinery will overtake the tradeport in profitability. Seems with 1.03 pricing, refineries are only worth it when placed optimally in long games. If the cost for black market resources goes up in 1.04, the refinery will benefit a lot.

Good math guys... thanks for the answer

I think refinery price should be lowered in 1.04. There is no point in them costing nearly twice what trade ports do.

It would make sense to have trade ports as credit boosters, making them expensive in metal and crystal but cheap in credits (200, 400, 200) and refineries as metal/crystal boosters, making them expensive in credits (2000, 100, 50). This would also help with TEC trade port dominance.
With such prices it wouldn't be a question of "when will it break even" but "do I have too much credits / metal / crystal and do I want to sell on the black market or make my own long term investment with it?".

As it stands right now, there is really no reason to ever pick a refinery over a trade port. Trade Ports generate a lot more income, and you can spend that income on anything (upgrades, capital ship levels, ships, metal/crystal via black market). You may also want a refinery in places with access to a lot of resource nodes, but not on the scale of trade ports (which I just put in every system I can).

Actually if Black Market resource prices have their low range go up, say from ~300 to ~500, a well placed refinery will be a no brainer and will actually pay for itself faster than a tradeport. At ~300 buy price, the refinery produces 1.8 cr/s value, but at ~500 buy price, it will produce 3.0 cr/s value. At that production rate, even adjusting for the higher "cost" of the refinery due to its resource components going up, it would pay itself off in 17 minutes (vs. a cost adjusted 21 for tradeports), and then proceed to be about twice as productive as a 5 hop tradepost.

The problem isn't the refinery mechanics, it is just because resources are so cheap on the Black Market, it is better to use a tradepost most of the time. Back in 1.02 when crystal purchasing would constantly have the crystal buy cost around 1000 (or higher), I used to drop refineries on or near my Ice planets. The thing about refineries is they are situational...if the resource cost is very low or everyone is overproducing resources, then the refinery is worthless because you have to dump the minerals on the Black Market for cash.

I would always get a trade port over a refinery. Your rate resource gain can never hope to match your credit income....if you are really hurting for metal/crystal just use the money you earned with trade ports and buy them.

Did you read any of this? lol...I just explained it. This isn't always true, even in 1.03. And with the expected black market price adjustments in 1.04, it won't be true either. You spam tradeports, but pick a few good locations for refineries -- don't spam them.

One of the problems with refineries, relative to trade-posts, which you don't address here is the amortization cost of the research per refinery/trade-post built.

Once I research trade-posts, I can put them everywhere...and they just improve with my planet-chain-length... The whole thing about refineries is that you need to find good placements for them, so how many do you actually build? 1, 2, 3? Compare this with 10+ tradeports and the research cost is significantly higher. Throw in the whole limit of 3 refineries affecting one extractor (4 for neutral) and it becomes even worse.

Certainly, a 500 black-market price will help... We'll see .

This argument doesn't hold at all. As TEC, you have to research refineries before you can research huge cargo holds. I think it is pretty clear no one uses refineries in short games -- I certainly don't. But in long games, you will research refineries just to get the massive boost from huge cargo holds that applies to both refineries and tradeports.

For Vasari, their "Matter Processors" are actually cheaper to research than their tradeports. Amortization is an issue, but if you find a good spot, you will probably throw down 2-3 refineries. At 500 black market buy price, a refinery is twice as productive as a 5 link tradepost....unless of course you are overproducing.

Great math, guys. I like the way you're evaluating, Cykur. I personally wouldn't call Cargo Holds "massive". I'd call it 30%.   

Any thoughts on Resource Focus, folks? Seems to me that Advent should just go with Trade Ports (i.e., credit income). Focus is iffy. Can be sweet on a desert startworld map, though (36 log. slots and 4 extractors).

Listen to us all, sounding like proper Traders

I have a few questions: Distance of trade routes = Each of your planets in a "line" that has a trade port is part of a "trade route"? Is another player necessary, or can your planets just trade with themselves? Secondly, does distance of refinery to extractor effect income rate, or is it the same? IE, Is it beneficial for two planets linked phase-wise, lets say an ice and a metal, to both have their own 3 refineries, or better for just one?

I don't think this will EVER be an issue. Trade ports make it very easy to have far more credits around than raw resources. The only time you might see an excess of raw resources is if you are Vasari, and are in desolate asteroid maps with large numbers of neutral extractors.

Trade port spam is very effective for getting rich, and much of that money goes straight to the black market. If you put your goods up, chances are they will sell.

Cykur, how often do you go past the simple TEC trade-port technology on their empire tree? Sure, in multi-star systems you'll probably go all the way to pervasive economy...in which case your whole tidbit about getting the refinery tech for cargo-expansion is true...

However, in many many situations, you never go beyond simple trade ports... You know why It already takes so long to get the trade port tech and some trade-ports up, you generally need to hurry into army production/technology...Have pity on your poor outnumbered allies! Also, unless you have *tons* of planets, you don't have the slots for military labs+trade-port+many-civ labs.

So given there is a pretty common scenario where you never actually research cargo-hold enhancements, my whole amortization spiel *is* valid. tyvm =p. My whole point was that it had to be factored in, not that refineries will be totally useless at $500 black-market-prices..

Yes, each planet in a line makes the route -- I never actually looked to see if trading with other players boosted the tradepost income. Whenever I'm playing allied games, I'm usually more worried about killing some other player.

A refinery uses every extractor in the current and neighboring systems. Each extractor can support 1 refinery, and neutral extractors can support 4. So if you have a few worlds and can place a refinery to cover them all, you only need them at one world. In fact, this is how you should use one...otherwise, it isn't going to be a profitable refinery. If you have hover your mouse over an extractor, you can see how many refineries it is supporting.

Damn straight it is true, you just answered your own question about technology amortization.





Okay, these are MY quotes from this thread.... why are you confusing this issue? Whether it is smart to build economy or military is a completely different question.

BUT, this thread was about understanding Refineries vs Tradeports. Refinery tech cost amortization, at least for TEC, is not an issue in a LONG game, because as you stated, Refineries lead to Huge cargo holds, which leads to Pervasive Economy. Whether it is smart to so much as build 1 civic lab and do any economic research is a totally different question. I spent a bunch of time trying to do a cost analysis to help people -- most of which are probably playing single player epic length games.

So given there are a bunch of scenarios where you never build a refinery is irrelevant to your valid amortization concern (amortization of tech costs!), which you have since agreed was not an issue if you go up to Pervasive Economy.

Refineries can come in handy late game when the creds are rolling in and your hurting for resources and buying vacations for all the pirates on the black market by constantly dumping creds for more metal and crystal. You cant really put a number on how much your losing pure cred wise when late game your dumping so much into the black market but a refinery at a an ice or volcanic is surely offsetting that a bit.

Trade ports are almost always better than refineries; early, mid, and late game.

Trade ports stack endlessly, and, at half the cost compared to refineries, you can build several at a time. Get enough trade ports in a large game and you'll get 100 credits/second as income. That means you can buy 100 resources of your choice every 'x' seconds, where 'x' is the conversion ratio listed by the credit icon above the purchase buttons. Refineries can never hope to touch that speed, and are limited in stack-ability.

Furthermore, its common in large games to discover planetary trade percentage bonuses through exploration. A desert world with a bonus that is loaded up with trade ports might make more income from trade ports alone than your fully upgraded terran home world at 110% allegiance.

Even if you find a sweet spot for a refinery between several ice/volcanic planets(ice is best), and with other phase lanes heading to capturable refineries. The amount of resources you need to dump into the refinery tech, and the cost of building three of them, is just too much to justify their slow speed. Those 1,000's upon 1,000's of resources are better spent in other areas(more ships, some cheap ship upgrades, etc). Use that fleet to expand your territory and build more trade ports.

I'd say cut refinery cost by 33% and give a 50% boost to their income rates. That way it might be tempting in large games to drop them in locations with multiple ice/volcanic planets nearby.

Wyvern, for details on how they work, see the wiki
Trade Port and Refinery pages.

Cykur, each owned extractor can support 3 refineries... you must've made a mental type there, eh.

It's an interesting question, whether Trade Allies will extend each others' longest chain. The description over the Trade Alliance button certainly sounds like it. But I rarely ally with AIs. Has anyone ever seen them extend their longest trade chain?

Ouch! Good catch! I have no clue how I typed 1 instead of 3!!

Tradeports are simply spam them everywhere. Refineries are based on supply and demand. say you have a bunch of metal and no crystal and one ice planet. the ice planet gets a refinery maybe 2. in addition to it's tradeport.

Danke, mates. I have noticed an interesting thing about trade ports though - when you hover your mouse over your credits, a few phase lanes turn white - I am guessing these are meant to be trade routes, but even if all of my planets are linked and have ports, I rarely see all of the potential routes turned white; actually, I mainly only see two or three lines, and they certainly never extend to my ally's planets (my ally being my roommate, with his empire right next to mine...) anyone know what's up with that?

The white lines indicate your optimal trade route, from what I understand (that's the actual trade chain that counts for your income boost).