Some do's and dont's for the coming Fantasy game

I am really looking forward to the Stardock fantasy game (especially after seeing what TA starts to look like) , but I haven’t seen Stardock having any real consultation about its content on the forums lately. In order not to miss the chance to give my two eurocents on the subject before the game is already pretty frozen I couldn’t resist posting the below.  

 Baseline dream game:

- Possibility to settle (build cities, forts, farms etc) anywhere on the map and not only on predefined squares. The type of terrain should affect the building: better defensive value for a city/fort built on a hill or among the mountains, better population growth through food production on fertile lowlands. Just like in Civilisation 4.

- The freedom to move and place troops anywhere on the map also without the presence of a hero in the group. Heroes should be a boon to an army but not all powerful: a huge army without hero should in principle have a chance to defeat a much smaller army with a hero, otherwise the game starts revolving only around the few “hero armies”, like in Heroes of MM. This is not good for a strategy game.  

- Use of magic much like in Age of Wonders Shadow Magic, i.e through building wizard towers you can enlarge your magic frontier and throw spells even into the domains of your enemies. Magic can thus work in some ways like Influence does in GC2, extending your REAL frontiers … Existence of both realm-based spells/rituals and battle spells in melee, please.

- Flexibility like in TA. Choice of civ where you can define name, race, deity worshipped, symbol, picture of race and heroes, type(s) of magic used, other civ attributes like economy, production, trade, preferred environment, immunities, weaknesses,  etc.  All this also for the opponents!

- Each civ worshipping a God/deity or pretender god, much like in Dominions 3. The most exciting feature with this (in addition to specialising your empire) is that the attributes of your deity can influence the domains under your control, like in Dom 3 (if you play the frost giants you will soon turn even the reeking jungles you have invaded into a winter landscape …) In this way your “divine mana” / “dominion” can function a bit like Influence in GC2. If possible the changing “dominion” should be reflected in the graphics too, which would be incredibly cool.

- The level of micromanagement under control – I have full confidence in Stardock handling this very well.

- Playing out siege battles much like in Age of Wonders SM or Heroes 5. Exciting stuff!

- Possibility to send out spies and assassins to get info, sabotage and assassinate enemy leaders, so you can play somewhat offensively even if not actually at war.

- A map generator would be soo nice to have in from the start.

- An “epic recorder” of events (even if pretty simple) would be gold worth - especially if written on a parchment-like fond. J

- Finally, don’t underestimate the importance of the number of buildings (and improvements), units and spells available for each civ. Ok, maybe this could be for a future expansion, but I still dream about that game which will stand out as just amazing not only in quality but also in quantity. Offering not only 20 units of choice per player but 120, not just 100 spells in total but 2000. Make it feel like a real world, with endless of opportunities, and I can guarantee you that we will play it endlessly!   

 Things to avoid:

-  It’s a fantasy game - don’t try to give it a « modern » feel through the graphics and artwork. What I mean is: please dare to do it with class and style and avoid the type of over-exaggerated illustrations we can see for game worlds such as Warhammer. It doesn’t look impressive or cool when every hero/adversary wields a 3.5+ meter long sword – it just looks ridiculous. An orch doesn’t need fifteen piercings to look cruel and evil – a pair of red gleaming eyes set in a hyena-like face with sharp teeth next to the tusks does it perfectly well. All male warriors don’t need to look like Schwarzenegger. All females don’t need to look like Pamela Anderson just out from the fantasy clothes shop (if they even wear any clothes …). Nothing wrong with piercings and well fit warriors, but you get the point – it’s all about style. Tolkien didn’t need to overdo it to convince fantasy lovers all over the world, and if you believe in your game you shouldn’t either.          

- Please avoid all gun-powder based weapons, like pistols, rifles and cannons. The existence of such weapons on a scale where they would actually be widely used in melee and on the battlefield is ALWAYS an anachronism in a traditional fantasy setting with castles and knights. The reason is simple: the cannon takes away most of the defensive value of the walled castle and fortification (why we don’t build castles for defense anymore). The pistol outdates the use of knights armour and swords in melee battle (why our soldiers don’t look like Lancelot anymore). And we do want classical castles and swords (the most romantic weapon) in a fantasy game. Again, resist the temptation to try to be “modern” when doing fantasy.

Thanks for reading and considering this, it has been produced with many hours of both fantasy and strategy gaming behind.     


17,472 views 17 replies
Reply #1 Top
Good post. I second every motion. This with years of similar experience. Dont underestimate the value of having fun battles in addition to having a good strategy game on top.
Reply #2 Top
Agreed. Plenty excellent point. up there.

However, I do think that the Warhammer world is not too bad in terms of technology level. The races that have gunpowder (empire, dwarfs) are effectively countered by the alternatives fielded by other races (most notably skaven warpstone weapons). True, if there are going to be user-defined races that might be difficult to implement, but it might be worth htinking about.
Reply #3 Top
I also would like tactical comabt of a total war scale. I'm tired of small scale battles. Great post.
Reply #4 Top
I opened this expecting to vehemently disagree, but I find nothing here to disagree with. And to emphasize, a map generator is an absolute must.
Reply #6 Top
Personally I think the game should stay as true to MOM as possible, while also updating it for the new generation of hardware. I realize that they said it will be part MOM, part Populous, and part X-COM, but I implore Stardock to first and foremost make sure it has that MOM feel.

- First and foremost, it must have core civilization elements. Building cities with terrain effecting city development, and being able to upgrade the cities via buildings. And of course, a random map generator with oodles of start options.
-LOTS of spells.... and have it be at least as varied in effects as MOM and the Dominions games. There should be everything from global enchantments, to unit enchantments, to battlefield enchants, to special spells like MOMs "Change Terrain" and "Earth Lore". The more spells the better guys, please...
-Fun tactical combat... It has been confirmed that tactical combat will be in there, there's a good opportunity to make it even better then MOM. I'd like to see an extremely varied set of units with many special abilities and different strategies for using them..
- AI, AI, AI, AI.... but this shouldn't be a problem since Stardock is known for good AI in their games...
- Most of all, don't dumb the game down for the masses.
Reply #7 Top
Agreed . . . and I'd add try to be a bit original as well. I see the same dozen or so baddies in nearly every fantasy game I've played, all shamelessly copied from Tolkien's books.

And FYI, there's no way a female would ever don the armor found in most games. They may look hot in metal bikinis, but it would really be no protection in a real battle.

FYI, anybody know what game type this will be? the Gorgon is talking sorta like it's going to be a RTS?

One thing I've been missing in the vast majority of games, especially RTS and other war games, is customizable formations. Go play the really, really old game The Ancient Art of War based on Sun Tzu's book. There are features in that game that nobody has ever tried to put into a modern game.

In addition, I stumbled across this web site that describes some of the shortcomings of video games to reproduce a real strategic element well:

http://www.artofwarsuntzu.com/VideoGame.htm

. . . could be some things to keep in mind when designing a strategy game.
Reply #8 Top
I agree with the thread starter. This game sounds really good. Only thing that Stardock have said that makes me a little bit uncomfortable is the story. Ancient Altaria? ?? Really??? I hope that they were joking. It really would be hard to make it convincing.

Everything else is good.

(1) Non-cheating AI.

(2) Lots of spells.

(3) Lots of units.

(4) Civ elements.
Reply #9 Top
I agree with all motions save the gunpowder.

One of my "wet dreams" has been a Napoleonic/Fredrickian style wargame with elves.
Go figure.

Reply #10 Top
Wait...

Please tell me that it isn't taking place in the Galciv universe in the past or something...

If it's a fantasy game, make it fantasy not this stupid magic science crap. Are they saying that ancient Altaria had a whole bunch of fantasy races like elves and such?
Reply #11 Top
If it's a fantasy game, make it fantasy not this stupid magic science crap. Are they saying that ancient Altaria had a whole bunch of fantasy races like elves and such?


Before Hyperdrive, the Altarians and Drath lived on the same planet, Altaria. They fought for many years before the Drath disappeared. This game may bring that war into the light.
Reply #12 Top
Wait...Please tell me that it isn't taking place in the Galciv universe in the past or something... If it's a fantasy game, make it fantasy not this stupid magic science crap. Are they saying that ancient Altaria had a whole bunch of fantasy races like elves and such?


I find a fantasy prequel to GC2 very difficult. I would prefer a slightly more independent setting. Don't mind having some of the same races, a la the klackons in MoM.

Also, regarding the first thread entry, I would like to clarify.

All females don’t need to look like Pamela Anderson just out from the fantasy clothes shop (if they even wear any clothes …)


Not sure I entirely agree.
Reply #13 Top
My most important things for the fantasy game would be :

1) lots of units and special abilities ( i love to see medusas battle with their stone gaze vs. dragons with fire breath ... been enhanced by shamans, etc ...)

2) the rpg factor ... this is a very important part for me ... units should gain experience and get better stats are advance into better units ... heroes should get skills ... another possibility would be a developing god .... your starting god has some characteristics (like fire god, death god, etc...) and you develop him/her into a good/bad god with enormous powers.

The rest here mentioned things like civ elems, good ai, map gen would make to a dream game ...

At last i would prefer a dark game atmosphere as in e.x. disciples ... but that of course my opinion ...

greetings

ps: I'm so eagerly awaiting this game ... checking daily more then 10 times the site only because of the possibility that there are news !
Reply #14 Top
- Please avoid all gun-powder based weapons, like pistols, rifles and cannons. The existence of such weapons on a scale where they would actually be widely used in melee and on the battlefield is ALWAYS an anachronism in a traditional fantasy setting with castles and knights.


Well...what if those munitions were the "type of sorcery" used by one particular unit or race? The Moranth munitions from the Steven Erikson "Malazan novels" for example, are gunpowder explosives that most others consider "magic", since the world is rife with magics of very different kinds.
Reply #15 Top
It should be noted that gun powder weapons took some time to make castles and knights completely obsolete. When guns were first invented and used as firearms, they were practically more dangerous to the user than the victim (just the right composition, refinement, and amount of gunpowder to use not being perfected yet). Cross bows and long bows were cheaper, more accurate, more reliable, and often easier to load than the very first guns.

Also, the only thing keeping castles and armored knights obsolete is the strength of their armor. If the armor value or whatever you might call it of stone walls were 10 times stronger, like steel, then perhaps castles would be effective against fire arms. Also, armored knights are a thing of the past again because of the strength of armor. Perhaps the days of medevil knights will make a return with troops in power armor and power swords. Ok maybe not power swords, but I do believe that suits of power armor where people are turned into walking tank space marines may be a reality someday.
Reply #16 Top
Basically what I am trying to say is that in a fantasy world, things don't have to be like our medevil Europe at all.
Reply #17 Top
It should be noted that gun powder weapons took some time to make castles and knights completely obsolete. ...


Notwithstanding the historical argumentation against gunpowder weapons I gave above it is of course finally a question of personal taste if you like them in a fantasy game or not. Still, I would like to develop the “theoretical” argumentation behind my view on the subject a little further.

In addition to the issue of “anachronism”, it is also a question of industrialization versus magic. A scientific logical world versus a fantastic world with room for dreams and the soul. All who are somewhat familiar with the values and messages behind the Lord of the Rings (which captures the fantasy atmosphere very well most agree) know that industrialization here is depicted as the biggest killer of the magic in the world, even as something evil (used by Sauron and Saruman). This message is also brought forward in the recent film trilogy. And isn’t it the same thing in our own world today – an untouched landscape makes you dream, but if you put in five busy highways and a couple of industrial plants it just kills the “soul” of the place. Gunpowder weapons have another feel to them than swords and bows, they are an expression of the modern industrialized era, without fairy-tale magic and fantasy atmosphere. That is another very good argument to keep them out of the fantasy game.

That is also the crucial difference between using magic on the battlefield with similar effects to say a cannon and actually using a cannon. In the first case of using magic, you are still within the bounds of the fantasy world, while in the second the cannon makes you think about how efficient it would be if only your soldiers could also get a mass-produced automatic rifle for a few dollars, and why not the latest canned food instead of having to hunt wild boars in the forest …

Basically what I am trying to say is that in a fantasy world, things don't have to be like our medevil Europe at all.


Indeed, but be cautious here, because if you go for something completely different you really don’t know what you will get. Of course it would be possible to do a very untraditional setting, with fire elementals powering the cross-country railway and magical “helicopters” floating around using levitation spells, or whatever. But frankly, you risk more than you stand to gain. Especially since today there really isn’t a single good up-to-date fantasy turn-based strategy PC game available on the market. We need the basic one first - let’s start with the “Bible” and then we could go for the more exotic stuff to keep people from boredom if necessary. Also, the point with Stardock's very user-flexible games is that you can indeed tailor-make your games to your own liking.

That doesn’t mean we have to stick to Tolkien’s elves and dwarves – I for one would love to see more unique, fleshed out civs like in Dom 3 – but Stardock should go for a medieval fantasy feeling. Keeping the guns out and the roses in. :)