Is Bush Going to Start Another War?

Bush and Cheney have been chomping at the bit to go after Iran for a long time. Back in 2003, shortly after the proclamation that major combat operations had ended in Iraq, there was the widespread belief that most U.S forces would be out of the country within 6 months and available to continue the grand ol' march of freedom. One administration official pontificated that with the speedy fall of Hussein's regime in Iraq it was time to topple other undesirables in the region. The question at the time wasn't about post-invasion security or rebuilding Iraq (sorely missed oversights at the time that now leave us with U.S troops in their 5th year of occupation) but where to go next. "Real men go to Tehran" was his statement.

Almost 5 years later, the over-arching plan of "cleaning house"  by going after other governments believed to be out of line with U.S policy appear to have been put on hiatus, but certainly not scrubbed. In fact, there have been several attempts to attain these goals of regime change minus the direct involvement of the U.S military, considering their unforeseen extended stay in Iraq. These attempts by other means failed, and now it is looking like a direct military operation may be back on track. Instead of acknowledging that U.S policy goals in the region may not be achievable, it appears the present administration is looking for it's chance for another try.

Before we get to today, let's look at some of the previous attempts that were made-

In the summer of 2006, Israel commenced a massive air campaign followed by a ground invasion of Lebanon, sparked by a cross border raid by Hezbollah in which several IDF soldiers were killed and captured. Israel's official stance was that enough was enough, no more mister nice guy. Their rationale was that they were going in to clean out Hezbollah, and get back their captured personnel. In actuality, the cross border raid which was the excuse for starting the war was very commonplace- these kind of tit-for tat raids have been ongoing as part of the background conflict for years. The particular raid by Hezbollah that started it was just big and bad enough for them to sink their teeth into as an excuse to do what they'd been planning for some time.

The IDF's summer campaign against Lebanon was supposed to achieve two main objectives, both of which failed:

1) Remove the threat Hezbollah posed against Israel, or at the very least render them combat innefective

2) Perform a dry-run "dress rehearsal" for what would be carried out in similar fashion by U.S and Israeli forces working in tandem against Iran later on. Basically testing out weapons and tactics as a test model on a small target for re-production on a much larger scale against a much larger target in the future.

Both of these objectives failed and so the attack against Iran was put on hold, but by no means cancelled. To start, Hezbollah being removed from the playing field was a necessity for if Iran was attacked there would most likely be a two front war as Hezbollah would attack Israel in turn. A two front war, especially where one of your enemies is sitting right next door is never desirable (technically one could argue the possibility of a three front war if you include the palestinian territories, as would probably happen with Hamas now largely entrenched in power in Gaza... but more on that later)

The dry-run objective is obvious. U.S and Israeli intel knew that Hezbollah had a large number of facilities and materiel in underground fortifications. So does Iran. The belief was that with overwhelming air power using updated weaponry, they could effectively neutralize much of Hezbollahs fighting ability, and lead to their downfall either directly or indirectly. This is how it was SUPPOSED to play out-

Israeli airstrikes cripple or destroy the bulk of Hezbollah underground facilities, take out their command, control and communications capability (or severely impair it) and leave them in such a weakened disorganized state that IDF ground forces can sweep in and mop up in a timely manner (also including insertion of special forces teams in pinprick attacks against high value targets,etc) Ideally, IDF forces wouldn't have to do much ground fighting as the popular idea was that by severely weakening Hezbollah, and dropping lots of bombs on Lebanon, that the Lebanese people would get sick of living in a bombed out country and rise up in large numbers to overthrow this weakened Hezbollah, thus ending the Israeli airstrikes.

This method is one of the most popular and has been used several times recently-

The NATO air campaign against Serbia, which did more dammage to Serbian infrastructure than their military- largely making life for the average Serbian civilian unlivable, forcing the Serbian gov to surrender to NATO demands.

Air campaigns conducted by U.S in GW1 and GW2. Nearly a month of round the clock bombings by combined forces in GW1 rendered significant portions of Iraqi armed forces innefective, demoralized or scattered, thus leaving them open for a three day ground invasion that was essentially an overwhelming hammer that crushed opposition. Again the popular uprising by civillians card was played, as Bush senior encouraged the Iraqi people to rise up against Saddam after Iraq had capitulated and withdrawn back across the border. This uprising did occur but failed.

GW2, of course we had the "shock and awe" campaign that was basically meant to send the message implied in the title of the campaign.

The same thing was supposed to happen in Lebanon, but it failed. Despite Israels best attempts at overwhelming air strikes, they were unable to severely cripple Hezbollah. Al-menar tv continued to broadcast via the web, despite their best efforts to find and destroy it. Core leadership remained alive and out of reach of IDF airstrikes and special forces raids, and rockets continued to pour over the border. When massive airstrikes failed, the IDF SHOULD have realized their mistake in sizing up the situation, but instead made a hasty, poorly planned decision to send in ground forces (tens of thousands of troops with full strength armoured units) and "smoke out" all the Hezbollah forces into the open, so that they could then be pulverized by air and artillery strikes. Hezbollah however had no illusions about the situation and chose to remain in hiding, popping out of cover when the local situation was to their advantage, conducting rapid strikes against IDF troops when possible and then melting back into cover. This frustrated the IDF to no end, and actually vastly increased the popularity of Hezbollah in Lebanon, while the U.S approved Lebanese president Saniora faced a popular uprising to unseat him with every passing day that he sat on his hands while IDF bombed and invaded his country- he was seen as doing nothing for his own people while Hezbollah was seen as mounting a hopeless struggle against the invaders. The IDF also learned that modern weaponry works both ways when possessed by your enemy- they lost several tanks quite unexpectedly to modern shoulder fired guided anti-tank weapons that have been in the arsenal of western powers for years.

Long story short, this dress rehearsal for what was going to be duplicated against Iran failed miserably. Instead of recognizing that this course of action may not work on a country like Iran or Lebanon (whose population, armed forces, geography, history and resources differ greatly from Iraq or Serbia) the plan is still on but it has just been delayed. The belief was not that the original plan was flawed, only that they didn't go big enough, and that the timing wasn't right. This time, it's quite possibly nuclear or other unconventional weapons might be considered to up the ante (development of bunker busting tactical nukes have been talked about a lot in the last couple years)

Admiral William Fallon is the commander of U.S forces in the middleast (he's General Petraeus' boss) and he knows just how out to lunch an attack on Iran would be, considering current U.S and allied deployment in theatre. He's publicly stated that he would resign before taking part in a military action against Iran. Well, yesterday he resigned. One more stumbling block to Bush and Cheney's plan for regional dominance is out of the way, just like General Eric Shinseki (chief of the Army) was a stumbling block to Iraq 2 when he gave a very realistic (and ultimately, correct) estimate of post-war problems the U.S would face. Rumsfeld didn't like what he heard, so he basically fired him. Fallon has pretty much made it clear that he's leaving because he doesn't agree with the Whitehouse's policy goals for the middleast.

With the situation in Iraq ~appearing~ to calm down somewhat with ever increasing numbers of Iraqi forces present (theoretically freeing up more U.S forces) combined with Fallon's retirement, a military action against Iran is looking ever more possible to the good folks who gave us Iraq and Afghanistan. Also, with only months left in the Bush administration this may be his last kick at the can to try and achieve his foreign policy goals in the region.

With the economy at home not doing too hot (banks just got lent 200 billion to stay afloat... a temporary measure that doesn't address some systemic economic problems) Getting into another war may be a last ditch attempt at staving off a depression at home- the dollar is currently tanking precipitously in comparison to the euro and inflation's not easing up. Other countries are starting to talk openly of dropping the dollar as the currency by which oil is bought and sold. If this happens the greenback will plummet overnight. Another war could be seen as an attempt at levelling the playing field, internationally, securing more non-renewable resources (or at least depriving other growing super powers from accessing them). After all, in his own words Bush is "the war president".

 

9,088 views 24 replies
Reply #1 Top

Heh.  Title makes it sound like he started the first one - but then you did admit to liberalism in all fairness :)

Reply #2 Top

While it's not the best time to bring the subject up to Congress, I still wonder how long we're going to live under the delusion that we haven't been at war with Iran for a few years now.  Their military kills our troops every day, and we sit around wondering "if" we'll doing anything about it.

Mahmoud must be laughing his fat Ahmadinejad off at us!

Reply #3 Top

Yeah Bush twisted everyone arm and made them go to war. Same Bush bash, over and over. Wish I had a dollar everytime I heard or will hear it til November.

Reply #4 Top
I'm upset Bush has not attacked Iran.  How many troops does Iran have to kill, or how many weapons do they smuggle before we do something?

It would be interesting for once to see a liberal talk about how Iran is the problem, not the U.S.


Reply #5 Top
I love the fact that our Gov't is based on checks and balance yet somehow everyone in Congress and/or the Senate, including good ol' Hillary, are somehow clean of any wrong doing.
Reply #6 Top
I'm upset Bush has not attacked Iran. How many troops does Iran have to kill, or how many weapons do they smuggle before we do something?
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Fair enough. But the question has to be asked, what would the rammifications be of attacking Iran? If anything, Iraq and Afghanistan (and Vietnam) should have been lessons to us that you can't make all your problems go away by military action. The british learned this lesson through centuries of empire and changed their game accordingly (until GW2, go figure) Depending on the situation, yes, military action can be part of the answer but it isn't the be-all end-all.

If Bush attacked Iran, how would it go down? U.S doesn't have the troops to do another invasion and occupation requiring hundreds of thousands of troops- and Iran has well more than twice the population and significantly larger armed forces than Iraq (would not be the same kind of war as GW1 and 2... Israel's war against Hezbollah in 2006 proved this)

So realistically a ground invasion of Iran is out, unless of course the U.S army and marines get a sudden influx of a couple hundred thousand folks who've recently been put out of work in the US economy :)

Which means a war against Iran would be an air war. Air strikes and cruise missiles. Question is, what would this solve? The idea is that if they drop a whole bunch of bombs on Iran and take out major government/military and heavy infrastructure that the people will get sick of the bombing and turn against their government. I do not think this will happen. All an air war against Iran will solve is stir up a hornets nest, possibly start world war three if Russia or China decide to get involved, and cause the price of oil to skyrocket to more than 200 dollars a barrel. Meaning you would have to pay 7 or 8 dollars a gallon at the pump and cost of food would skyrocket.

Iran has the capability to shut down all commercial shipping in the straits of Hormuz, effectively strangling a large part of world oil supply. You can be sure they'd be launching missiles at U.S installations in Iraq and across the middleast, no amount of airstrikes will be able to take out their entire missile capability in one fell swoop. Israel tried this on Hezbollah, who was in Lebanon which is a tiny, tiny country and they were unable to locate and neutralize most of the rockets. The idea that this would be succesful in a much larger country with much greater resources is a non-starter. Also, if the U.S is reckless enough to place a carrier group in the straits of Hormuz which is a confined area, they will probably lose it to missiles launched from the coast. U.S used to very rarely send large numbers of warships into this region, as everyone knows it would be a barrel shoot. However in recent years carrier groups have actually gone well into the straits, basically leaving them very, very vulnerable to missile attack from short range.
Reply #7 Top
I love the fact that our Gov't is based on checks and balance yet somehow everyone in Congress and/or the Senate, including good ol' Hillary, are somehow clean of any wrong doing.
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Well, after the dems took congress a while back I was expecting

A) Articles of impeachment to be filed against Bush and Cheney (kucinich actually did do this but was shot down by his own people... several state governments have however voted to impeach Bush and Cheney)

B) An end to the illegal and beligerent invasion of Iraq

In essence though, the dems sat on their hands, effectively condoning years of criminal acts. No one is innocent!
Reply #8 Top
Their military kills our troops every day, and we sit around wondering "if" we'll doing anything about it.
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So that is the question ParaTed, what should we do about it? Airstrikes? Tactical nukes?
Reply #9 Top
I would make it clear to Iran that we are already in a state of war with them. Then I would show expose the Iranian troops, weapons and equipment in Iraq. I would seal the border with aircraft patrols and satelite surveillence, and consider strikes against any crossing of the border.

I would also let Iran know that any attacks on Iranian targets would utilize captured Iranian weapons. We'll call it, "Operation: Return to Sender". ;~D
Reply #10 Top
Well, after the dems took congress a while back I was expecting

A) Articles of impeachment to be filed against Bush and Cheney (kucinich actually did do this but was shot down by his own people... several state governments have however voted to impeach Bush and Cheney)

B) An end to the illegal and beligerent invasion of Iraq

In essence though, the dems sat on their hands, effectively condoning years of criminal acts. No one is innocent!
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You know I find it very annoying when people blabber ignorance just because they can.

A) No impeachment has been filed because Bush broke no law. No one has been able to prove anything that would suggest an impeachment. Wake up and stop BSing already on crap that has been talked about time and again. Some people need to learn to let go.

B) The war in Iraq was not illegal since it was approved by our Congress and/or Senate. Get your head out of the gutter dude. Childish arguments like these are what have this country so screwed up.
Reply #11 Top
2) Perform a dry-run "dress rehearsal" for what would be carried out in similar fashion by U.S and Israeli forces working in tandem against Iran later on. Basically testing out weapons and tactics as a test model on a small target for re-production on a much larger scale against a much larger target in the future.
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I am very interested in knowing where you get your information. Having some small knowledge of the way military actions are planned, (been on the planning staff that planned all war scenarios that cover that part of the world during my tour of duty, every country west of the Rockies to the center of Tehran was our area of responsibility), what you laughingly suggest as a dry run is not how it is done not even in bad novels. Whoever gave you this supposed insight was either having fun with you or is dumb as a bag of hair, or a conspiracy theorist without a clue.

If I may suggest a better course of action for Iran. Build up a working democracy in Iraq and allow the people of Iran to do the right thing. At least that is the way military planners do it. Iran is a nation that has 70% of its population that wants to be friends with America again. Going to war with them is a bad idea because we would be killing more of our friend than our enemies. China and North Korea are the places that warrant military action not Iran as long as Iran does not provoke us. There is more unrest in Iran than we need to let their government fall naturally and any military action would only force our friends over there side with our enemies. This is why we don’t attack Iran even though we have captured three general officers in Iraq and almost a battalion of troops, that is captured not killed, which is more than what we need as an excuse to attack Iran if we wanted to go in that direction.

The NATO air campaign against Serbia, which did more dammage to Serbian infrastructure than their military- largely making life for the average Serbian civilian unlivable, forcing the Serbian gov to surrender to NATO demands.
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Ok you do know that the bombing raids were done by President Clinton not George Bush? It was hailed as a great success by liberal democrats that not a single American died during that almost war, and the great good we did by going in there when all the rest of Europe wanted no part in it. Oh by the way we are still stuck there because of Mr. Clinton, that was what 10 or 15 years ago and we are still stuck there?

A) Articles of impeachment to be filed against Bush and Cheney (kucinich actually did do this but was shot down by his own people... several state governments have however voted to impeach Bush and Cheney)
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You can’t impeach the President for the invasion of Iraq because our Congress signed off on it, NATO signed off on it, the UN signed off on it. There were what, 20 people in the Congress that opposed the war? 20 out of 535 does not a majority make. Of the UN the only countries that opposed the invasion were the ones on Iraq’s payroll and once that was made public after we invaded and found the paper work to prove it we lost that opposition. In fact the presidents of France and Germany both lost election and pro American leaders were elected leaving the only holdout in the UN Russia. So there was at no time legal grounds for impeachment.

B) An end to the illegal and beligerent invasion of Iraq
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Can’t be illegal if we are following UN mandates. Wow those minor annoying technical details like our laws and international laws really get in the way of a good delusion.

In essence though, the dems sat on their hands, effectively condoning years of criminal acts. No one is innocent!
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They sat on their hands hoping for the policy to fail giving them a chance to win the next round of elections. It was a political calculation that did not work out so well for them. And this is the party you want in charge for the next four or eight years? A party that cheerleads defeat for the nation in order to gain political power, a party that makes statements like we need more American deaths in order to solidify our position. A party that wants to win so badly that they don’t care who gets hurt or killed if it will help them? This is what you want leading our nation?
Reply #12 Top

I am very interested in knowing where you get your information.
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Al Jazeera's pretty good actually. So are a lot of impartial investigative journalists- Seymour Hirsch, Chris Hedges come to mind.

Having some small knowledge of the way military actions are planned, (been on the planning staff that planned all war scenarios that cover that part of the world during my tour of duty, every country west of the Rockies to the center of Tehran was our area of responsibility), what you laughingly suggest as a dry run is not how it is done not even in bad novels. Whoever gave you this supposed insight was either having fun with you or is dumb as a bag of hair, or a conspiracy theorist without a clue.
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Okay, yes, it wasn't an actual dry run. But conceptually it was the same thing. They knew that Hezbollah had an extensive network of underground fortifications and wanted to see how their latest and greatest weapons would work on it. This would give them a pretty good idea of any tweaking they might want to do for the big show against Iran. While their main objective was to remove Hezbollah, they also wanted to see just how effective they could be at disrupting an enemy who's largely underground with present technologies.

If I may suggest a better course of action for Iran. Build up a working democracy in Iraq and allow the people of Iran to do the right thing. At least that is the way military planners do it. Iran is a nation that has 70% of its population that wants to be friends with America again. Going to war with them is a bad idea because we would be killing more of our friend than our enemies.
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Wow! To be honest I'm impressed to hear someone advocating NOT attacking Iran. I agree that we should leave them alone, and should not bomb them. In fact, in the past Iran was a democratic nation and we punished them for it. They elected a fellow named Mossadegh who was a progressive secular socialist (not a communist) He was popular with the people but his crime was deciding to nationalize the oil company, and to play ball with the Soviets. Although democratically elected, president Eisenhower issued orders to the CIA to see to his overthrow. They provided weapons, funding, training and operatives in country and installed the Shah as a dictator that oppressed his people and tore their freedom asunder for years. While the Iranian people may not be overly happy with their current government, the years of repression under the fully U.S supported Shah has left a mark that is burned into the national psyche. So the argument that they will suddenly forget years of bad blood and start playing to the tune of U.S interests is somewhat doubtful in my mind!

Ok you do know that the bombing raids were done by President Clinton not George Bush? It was hailed as a great success by liberal democrats that not a single American died during that almost war, and the great good we did by going in there when all the rest of Europe wanted no part in it. Oh by the way we are still stuck there because of Mr. Clinton, that was what 10 or 15 years ago and we are still stuck there?
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Yup, never said anywhere that Bush was responsible for this. I mentioned this conflict because it was seen as the "new kind" of war to be waged in low intensity regional conflicts going forward. I also don't give a crap about Clinton or demo/repub chest beating competitions. I am not American.

You can’t impeach the President for the invasion of Iraq because our Congress signed off on it, NATO signed off on it, the UN signed off on it. There were what, 20 people in the Congress that opposed the war? 20 out of 535 does not a majority make. Of the UN the only countries that opposed the invasion were the ones on Iraq’s payroll and once that was made public after we invaded and found the paper work to prove it we lost that opposition. In fact the presidents of France and Germany both lost election and pro American leaders were elected leaving the only holdout in the UN Russia. So there was at no time legal grounds for impeachment.
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Yes, your congress and senate did sign off on it. However from the UN standpoint there was no "sign-off" authorizing the U.S to invade, so the coalition of the willing just kinda went ahead and did it anyway. In may of 2003 the UN DID sign a declaration lifting the economic sanctions and authorizing the CPA as the defacto ruling party but didn't condone or accept the fact that the U.S had waged an aggressive war.

There are many reasons Bush should be impeached, from his illegal use of signing statements to change bills down to his illegal authorization to spy on Americans without warrants, but for the sake of brevity one of them is that he knowingly lied to the American people and the world about the justification for war. Of course he is not alone in this, but as the commander in chief the buck stops with him.

WMD's- Supposedly Iraq was re-arming and had WMD's in stockpile. This was false. Several times credible intel came to him stating this was false, so he (and his supporters like Feith, Perle, Cheney, Rumsfeld etc) ignored it until quasi-credible intel came along stating that they kinda, maybe, could, potentially be thinking about having WMD's. This was then spun out into Colin Powell's little song and dance in front of the UN with the satellite imagery of weapons bunkers and the like.

Furthermore, Saddam was apparently planning to strike the U.S with these WMD's and other unconventional means. This too was false. Iraq was not threatening anyone, not globally or even regionally. This was a flat out lie used to justify an immoral war of aggression.

There were also plenty of allusions to Saddam was linked to major terrorist groups like AQ, and may have been in cahoots with them. This too was false. I'm not defending him in any way shape or form. Of course he was a monster. But he was also a secular dictator who was very particular about who played in his backyard. Major terrorist groups weren't present in Iraq at all until well after his regime had been toppled and they basically moved in during the security vacuum that ensued after de-baathification and the complete disbanding of the Iraqi army.

Bill Clinton can have impeachment proceedings opened against him because he got a BJ and lied about it. George Bush knowingly lies to get his nations armed forces to invade another sovereign country that was posing no threat whatsoever and he's innocent? hmmmm.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reply #13 Top

Iran knows that the US defeated the Iraqis military in three weeks. They couldn't do the same  in 8 years of war. Sure there might be an insurgent factor in Iran if the US invaded, but the Iranian leaders know that they could be standing on a scaffold with a rope around their necks very quickly...just like Saddam. Their best ally to insure it doesn't happen is the Democratic Party, enemies of the US just luv um.

Reply #14 Top
Al Jazeera's pretty good actually. So are a lot of impartial investigative journalists- Seymour Hirsch, Chris Hedges come to mind.
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Sorry, I don’t remember them at any war planning meetings, I have been out of the loop for a while but last I checked they were reporters and propagandist not associated with military war planning. Don’t you think that would make their statements at best speculation rather than fact?

Okay, yes, it wasn't an actual dry run. But conceptually it was the same thing. They knew that Hezbollah had an extensive network of underground fortifications and wanted to see how their latest and greatest weapons would work on it.
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Not in the least, we have war time data less than five years old with actual weapons. I would suggest you watch the military channel you can see the unclassified stuff that will do most of the job without putting more than 30 people on the ground as opposed to the tens of thousands used against Hezbollah did you bother to watch the Gulf war? The operation Iraqi Freedom? the battles in Afghanistan? Any movie since the Vietnam War? Israel used Korean War tactics which is 90 generations behind what we do. I would also suggest you find a new source of information cause yours is either way out of date, (like 50 years) or is trying to mislead people.

Wow! To be honest I'm impressed to hear someone advocating NOT attacking Iran. I agree that we should leave them alone, and should not bomb them. In fact, in the past Iran was a democratic nation and we punished them for it.
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I am so glad you agree with the strategy of our president who has stated this as our national goal five years ago. It is a matter of public record, the democrats have been saying that his strategy won’t work over there for five years pointing to the failure in Iraq as the reason it won’t work and we should attack. Well they want President Bush to attack as an admission of failure to his Iraq policy. Notice now that they have been silent the last year because their policy of attacking the troops and the president has not worked so well. If the strategy was such a failure why is it that Iran has sent in battalions of troops to wreck the process every time it succeeds. Oh by the way Iran has admitted they financed the Hezbollah border incursion that started the mess, it is speculated that it was done to distract us from them and to provoke a response from us that would anger the Arab world. It also failed.

Yup, never said anywhere that Bush was responsible for this. I mentioned this conflict because it was seen as the "new kind" of war to be waged in low intensity regional conflicts going forward. I also don't give a crap about Clinton or demo/repub chest beating competitions. I am not American.
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It was a disaster that President Bush 41 refused to do for the reasons it has failed now. The same reason we went into Somalia with strict orders not to take sides and to just ensure that people got fed. President Clinton changed that order and we got our asses handed to us. AQ moved in and set a trap for us and gained a lot of prestige because of the Blackhawk down situation, which allowed him to recruit more people for the 9/11 attack as well as five others against us during the democrat’s time in power. Remember that 9/11 was planned and initiated five years before the attack. My point is that it was not a new kind of war it was WWII tactics that we don't use any more for a good reason.

Yes, your congress and senate did sign off on it. However from the UN standpoint there was no "sign-off" authorizing the U.S to invade, so the coalition of the willing just kinda went ahead and did it anyway. In may of 2003 the UN DID sign a declaration lifting the economic sanctions and authorizing the CPA as the defacto ruling party but didn't condone or accept the fact that the U.S had waged an aggressive war.
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My dear friend north of my border, you need to stop watching the CBC because they failed to report the truth. Everyone else reading bare with me as I bring our friend up to date.

At the end of the Gulf War, Iraq signed an armistice not a peace treaty. It stated that the war will continue if certain demands are not met. The UN agreed to them since it was a UN action. President Clinton stated more than once that Iraq violated that agreement and he would do something if Saddam did not get into full compliance. WMD of various sorts, violations of the no fly zone, attacks on his own people to name a few. Anyway Mr. Clinton left office without doing anything and when the attacks on 9/11 happened and Saddam stated publicly that he would support any terrorist organization with money and his stockpiles of WMD if they attacked Israel and America. Mr. Bush then turned his attention to Iraq. Your own prime minister stated it was the right thing to do and even sent your troops there in support. The UN had no choice but to allow it to happen because they signed off on the agreement in the first place. NATO also signed off on it. There were only three big nations outside of the Arab world that did not support the invasion. France, Germany, and Russia all three leaders were on the payroll of Saddam insane. The president of France is still in legal hot water over it. Two of the three have been replaced by American friendly leaders which show the people of those nations agree with what my president and your PM did.

WMD's- Supposedly Iraq was re-arming and had WMD's in stockpile. This was false. Several times credible intel came to him stating this was false, so he (and his supporters like Feith, Perle, Cheney, Rumsfeld etc) ignored it until quasi-credible intel came along stating that they kinda, maybe, could, potentially be thinking about having WMD's. This was then spun out into Colin Powell's little song and dance in front of the UN with the satellite imagery of weapons bunkers and the like.
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Yeah, those people are much more credible than the Brits, the French, the Germans, Spain, Saudi Arabia, and a host of other nation’s intelligence services that provided Intel saying they had them including the UN. Oh yeah I almost forgot, Saddam said he had them in the surrender document and then in public statements much later after the UN inspectors were kicked out. Stocks were found but not in huge enough numbers to please the left. If he had a drop it was more than he was allowed to have.

Furthermore, Saddam was apparently planning to strike the U.S with these WMD's and other unconventional means. This too was false. Iraq was not threatening anyone, not globally or even regionally. This was a flat out lie used to justify an immoral war of aggression.
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As I said earlier he stated he would give his stock piles to any terrorist organization that would use them on Israel and America. It does not matter if he had them or not he threatened us and you with tons of material that was unaccounted for by the UN. This was not some nebulous Intel report it was Saddam himself that made the statements on public television more than once. After 9/11 America was not in a mood to sit and wait to see if he was telling the truth or not. He was told to disarm he refused and died because of it.

There were also plenty of allusions to Saddam was linked to major terrorist groups like AQ, and may have been in cahoots with them. This too was false.
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Not true, President Bush stated for the record he did not think Saddam was involved with the attacks on 9/11 but Saddam did support terrorist after 9/11 with money and supplies. This was confirmed by Saddam himself in public statements. He also provided safe haven for AQ when we invaded Afghanistan, proof of that is also public record. Are you sure you read the news of this century?

Bill Clinton can have impeachment proceedings opened against him because he got a BJ and lied about it. George Bush knowingly lies to get his nations armed forces to invade another sovereign country that was posing no threat whatsoever and he's innocent? hmmmm.....
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No, my dear friend you are reading propaganda here. Mr. Clinton was impeached because he lied in a court of law. He lost his law license because of it in a subsequent plea deal. This means he was guilty of the crime. Politically he danced around it but legally he was guilty. Also a matter of public record.

Mr. Bush did not lie in a court of law, and to my knowledge he broke no laws so he can’t be impeached. You can only impeach a president for high crimes and misdemeanors, none of which has been committed by my current president.


Reply #15 Top
Iran knows that the US defeated the Iraqis military in three weeks. They couldn't do the same in 8 years of war. Sure there might be an insurgent factor in Iran if the US invaded, but the Iranian leaders know that they could be standing on a scaffold with a rope around their necks very quickly...just like Saddam. Their best ally to insure it doesn't happen is the Democratic Party, enemies of the US just luv um.
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Can’t argue with that, but no military leader would agree to invade as long as Iran does not overtly threaten the USA. We have too many people that support us there right now and it would be counterproductive to invade without a serious threat against us. Some one stupid like Senator Clinton might do it to prove how much of a man she is but other than that no way would we do that.
Reply #16 Top

Not in the least, we have war time data less than five years old with actual weapons. I would suggest you watch the military channel you can see the unclassified stuff that will do most of the job without putting more than 30 people on the ground as opposed to the tens of thousands used against Hezbollah did you bother to watch the Gulf war? The operation Iraqi Freedom? the battles in Afghanistan? Any movie since the Vietnam War? Israel used Korean War tactics which is 90 generations behind what we do. I would also suggest you find a new source of information cause yours is either way out of date, (like 50 years) or is trying to mislead people.
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Oh my. Israel has armaments pretty much the same as the U.S. In fact, they're very heavily invested in advanced arms research and production. In terms of "korean war tactics" that's absolutely ridiculous. They took a page from the modern U.S warbook and tried to duplicate the "shock and awe" tactics used in GW2, only on a much smaller target. When this failed to have any effect on Hezbollah they went in with ground troops. Both of these efforts failed miserably. This is why today Hezbollah is still a major power player in Lebanon.

Your own prime minister stated it was the right thing to do and even sent your troops there in support. The UN had no choice but to allow it to happen because they signed off on the agreement in the first place. NATO also signed off on it. There were only three big nations outside of the Arab world that did not support the invasion. France, Germany, and Russia all three leaders were on the payroll of Saddam insane. The president of France is still in legal hot water over it. Two of the three have been replaced by American friendly leaders which show the people of those nations agree with what my president and your PM did.
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Ha ha ha!!! First off, the Canadian prime minister at the time did NOT state it was the right thing to do. I know because I watched the parliamentary debates in which he stated (with the support of parliament) that Canada, would not, in fact partake in the Iraq war because the UN DID NOT sign off on it. Canada has sent troops to Afghanistan as part of a NATO mission and they are presently there to the tune of about 2000 troops right now, but there never has and never will be a deployment of Canadian troops to Iraq.

As I said earlier he stated he would give his stock piles to any terrorist organization that would use them on Israel and America. It does not matter if he had them or not he threatened us and you with tons of material that was unaccounted for by the UN. This was not some nebulous Intel report it was Saddam himself that made the statements on public television more than once. After 9/11 America was not in a mood to sit and wait to see if he was telling the truth or not. He was told to disarm he refused and died because of it.
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Actually, the reports are pretty clear. The Iraq Survey Group spent a couple years going through the country after the invasion and it turned out that indeed, Iraq really had no weapons of mass destruction save a handfull of shells with mustard gas (manufactured pre 1991) 

The CIA issued a report stating after the fact that they were "dead wrong" about the WMD's. They were never there. The war was sold on a pack of lies. Saddam dismantled the bulk of his WMD programs in 1991. Yes, he tried to get some chemical production back a few years later but after the bombings in 1998 it was the final nail in the coffin.

 UN weapons inspectors even stated in the run up to the war that they had been granted access to everywhere they wanted to go and they could find no significant signs of production or possible stockpiles. Hans Blix said as much in interviews. 

Mr. Bush did not lie in a court of law, and to my knowledge he broke no laws so he can’t be impeached. You can only impeach a president for high crimes and misdemeanors, none of which has been committed by my current president.
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Lying to your people and the world in order to get them to go to war sounds like a high crime to me!

He also provided safe haven for AQ when we invaded Afghanistan, proof of that is also public record. Are you sure you read the news of this century?
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No it isn't a matter of public record. Saddam hated AQ. It is a well known fact that much of AQ went to Pakistan in the aftermath of the Afghanistan invasion. AQ did not develop a presence in Iraq until well after the U.S had taken over.

 

 

Reply #17 Top
Oh my. Israel has armaments pretty much the same as the U.S. In fact, they're very heavily invested in advanced arms research and production. In terms of "korean war tactics" that's absolutely ridiculous. They took a page from the modern U.S warbook and tried to duplicate the "shock and awe" tactics used in GW2, only on a much smaller target. When this failed to have any effect on Hezbollah they went in with ground troops. Both of these efforts failed miserably. This is why today Hezbollah is still a major power player in Lebanon.
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Not true they went in without air cover and seriously hurt their chances of victory because of it. They attacked a limited areas unlike the first time they went in and pushed the terrorist into the sea then stopped the last few miles giving them a victory. I strongly suggest you study tactics before you try to argue them.

Ha ha ha!!! First off, the Canadian prime minister at the time did NOT state it was the right thing to do. I know because I watched the parliamentary debates in which he stated (with the support of parliament) that Canada, would not, in fact partake in the Iraq war because the UN DID NOT sign off on it. Canada has sent troops to Afghanistan as part of a NATO mission and they are presently there to the tune of about 2000 troops right now, but there never has and never will be a deployment of Canadian troops to Iraq.
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My mistake you are correct.

Actually, the reports are pretty clear. The Iraq Survey Group spent a couple years going through the country after the invasion and it turned out that indeed, Iraq really had no weapons of mass destruction save a handfull of shells with mustard gas (manufactured pre 1991)
The CIA issued a report stating after the fact that they were "dead wrong" about the WMD's. They were never there. The war was sold on a pack of lies. Saddam dismantled the bulk of his WMD programs in 1991. Yes, he tried to get some chemical production back a few years later but after the bombings in 1998 it was the final nail in the coffin.
UN weapons inspectors even stated in the run up to the war that they had been granted access to everywhere they wanted to go and they could find no significant signs of production or possible stockpiles. Hans Blix said as much in interviews.
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So if a defiant leader of a nation that says it is your enemy states that he will give weapons to any one that will use them on you we should ignore this because the UN report says the list of WMD that Saddam says he has matches with the UN list of stuff that is missing? As long as those weapons are unaccounted for he was a valid threat. We knew people were on Saddam’s payroll and not knowing who all of them were made peoples statements suspect. Like I said before 9/11 people did not care after 9/11 no one wanted to take the chance.

Lying to your people and the world in order to get them to go to war sounds like a high crime to me!
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He told no lies that I have seen. Everything he spoke of were based on reports he received from not just the American government but a host of other nations that said the same thing. Were they wrong? So far yes. Did he lie? Nope. To lie he would have to KNOW the information was false when he said it and there is no proof of this at all.

No it isn't a matter of public record. Saddam hated AQ. It is a well known fact that much of AQ went to Pakistan in the aftermath of the Afghanistan invasion. AQ did not develop a presence in Iraq until well after the U.S had taken over.
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Wounded AQ people were in his special hospital recuperating from wounds suffered in Afghanistan. When the press reported this Saddam had the number four leader of AQ taken out of the hospital and shot on the street. To show that he did not know they were there. The others he let go back out of the country. Funny how he was supposed to hate AQ but he was putting them up in HIS hospital in Baghdad. That is supplying safe haven to our enemy one of the things my president said that any nation did would be treated as the terrorist. Almost a year later we find these people in Iraq, did they sneak into the country and then sneak into the hospital without anyone knowing about it until a reporter just happens to notice a bunch of people wanted by America are sitting up in the hospital? oh yeah public record.
Reply #18 Top
If Bush attacked Iran, how would it go down? U.S doesn't have the troops to do another invasion and occupation requiring hundreds of thousands of troops- and Iran has well more than twice the population and significantly larger armed forces than Iraq
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We do have enough troops, do you not know the full scale of our military?

Regardless, I'm pretty much done with the invasion thing.  When dealing with these islamic extremists it's time to start turning to the instant glass solution.


Lying to your people and the world in order to get them to go to war sounds like a high crime to me!
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"The world"....lol.


Reply #19 Top

We do have enough troops, do you not know the full scale of our military?
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Actually, you don't! The US military has spent the last 5 years rotating through combat assignments in Iraq and Afghanistan and staffing the hundreds of bases located around the world to boot. This has left the U.S military in desperate need of replenishment, both in terms of manpower, equipment and training. To make up for this shortfall, the pentagon has come to increasingly rely on contractors (mercenaries) Currently 1 in 3 U.S personnel in Iraq are actually contractors- everything from combat arms mercenaries like Blackwater to cooks and communications techs provided for the military by civy firms like KBR. 

Regardless, I'm pretty much done with the invasion thing. When dealing with these islamic extremists it's time to start turning to the instant glass solution.
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Yes, because nukes are the ultimate weapon to defeat terrorism ~_^

 

Reply #20 Top
Yes, because nukes are the ultimate weapon to defeat terrorism ~_^
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They seem to believe it could be an effective tool against the western infidels. We just lucky they haven't gotten their hands on one yet.

I think you are a funny person Artysim. You seem to like to point out how evil the US is for what you seem to consider our hypocrisy yet you don't condemn those who openly threaten with annihilation other countries. But what can I expect from people who use feelings to drive their opinions as oppose to education.
Reply #21 Top

They seem to believe it could be an effective tool against the western infidels. We just lucky they haven't gotten their hands on one yet.
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So using nuclear weapons on an entire country, possibly killing millions of innocent people to get a handful of bad guys is justified? If anything using nukes to combat terrorism is just about the most laughable option available. It would actually contribute to terrorism's spread, and give countries and groups around the world no end of justification to retaliate at the west.

This is the problem with the supposed "war on terror" You can't kill an idea with guns and bombs. You can kill the people who subscribe to that idea, but that only helps their recruiting as they are seen as martyrs or ideologoues fighting for a cause. This is why the completely unnecessary invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan has only strengthened terrorism around the world. Terrorism is not fought with an entire army, because the truth is most folks aren't terrorists. But when you send an entire army to occupy and entire country, of course folks there are going to get fed up with having their doors kicked down in the middle of the night and being shot at or driven off the road so a convoy can pass through. A lot of these folks will then get angry and become insurgents (who are not terrorists) or may join groups like AQ (those are terrorists)

Instead, we've lumped all the parties together as "terrorists" and have come to the conclusion that maybe the idea of sending in hundreds of thousands of troops and tanks to fight an idea isn't the best course of action. Instead of trying a different approach, we've come to believe that the problem is that last time we didn't go big enough. So next time we have to use more force, naturally. That is why we get things like the idea that nuclear weapons will somehow wipe out the terrorists once and for all. The only thing this would do would be to turn the US into a pariah on the international stage (if it isn't already)

The funny thing is the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan was EXACTLY what Bin Laden wanted. He believed that if he could mount an attack inside the states, that the US would overreact and send in the troops to invade entire countries. His argument was that US occupation of muslim countries would turn more folks against the U.S, and that's precisely what has happened.

But what can I expect from people who use feelings to drive their opinions as oppose to education.
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Funny, there was a large outpouring of fear and patriotism (both emotions) used to justify the invasion of Iraq. If you will remember Bush stated in a speech that Saddam had WMD's and was planning on nuking the states. This was nothing more than fearmongering and playing on people's emotions to convince them!

 

Reply #22 Top

Ah there it is.....Bush's fault.... poor congress didn't have the same intel as the president did, mean ol Bush twisted their arms again.

People (especially on the left and in particularly the Bush haters) seem to forget Iraq regularly flaunted at least two UN security resolutions over the preceding years (oh what can we call that period of time, I know the Clinton presidency), neither having anything to do with WMD's or nukes. Again the weak, ineffectual UN cannot enforce its mandates and the US must step up to the plate.

Reply #23 Top
Actually, you don't! The US military has spent the last 5 years rotating through combat assignments in Iraq and Afghanistan and staffing the hundreds of bases located around the world to boot. This has left the U.S military in desperate need of replenishment, both in terms of manpower, equipment and training. To make up for this shortfall, the pentagon has come to increasingly rely on contractors (mercenaries) Currently 1 in 3 U.S personnel in Iraq are actually contractors- everything from combat arms mercenaries like Blackwater to cooks and communications techs provided for the military by civy firms like KBR.
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You really don't know what you are talking about, I thought you were baiting people just for fun but now I see you really believe this trash.

Since you are not from our country and you don’t know much about America except what you read from our enemies allow me to lower your ignorance quotient a tad.

As it stands right now we are rotating our troops in and out of Iraq and Afghanistan while at the same time we keep 60K troops in Okinawa Japan, 30K troops in Germany down from 100K. The Marine Corps has 190K active duty troops with another 60K in ready reserve and 80K more in reserve forces scattered around the nation, of which no more than 10K are in Iraq or Afghanistan at any one time with the majority of them reservists rather than active duty forces. There are not that many US forces in both Iraq and Afghanistan at this time.

Then there is the Army with their own ready reserve and so on.

When the detractors say that we can’t do the surge without hurting our ability as a fighting force what they mean is the surge will mean that if we are attacked by another nation we will have fewer troops to respond with quickly and will have to wait as much as 90 days to build up or take troops from places around the world that are placed there for that reason. If a total recall is activated within 6 months America can have as much as 2 million troops without enacting the draft. Sure people are rotated in and out but if push comes to shove we have people.
So once again if we wanted to invade Iran we could do it but it is not something we want to do or at least this administration wants to do.

Yes, because nukes are the ultimate weapon to defeat terrorism ~_^
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Right, if you are stupid! The use of nuclear weapons is not as indiscriminate as you may think, at least on our side of the battle. The enemy on the other hand tried to smuggle nasty stuff through your border to the US on more than one occasion and were stopped once by blind luck and once through Intel. What would you say or do if they chose to set one off in your country as a way to get their point across? So far 10 nations have been trying to get nuclear weapons to use against Israel and the US, do you think the fall out will only say on our side of the border?

According to the latest news reports Iran’s nuclear facility is not near any well populated areas, a nuke there would halt their work and not kill anyone not involved in the process. It would be quick and easy and be done in under an hour if the president ordered it.

So using nuclear weapons on an entire country, possibly killing millions of innocent people to get a handful of bad guys is justified?
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As far as I know you are the only one that is advocating such action.

If anything using nukes to combat terrorism is just about the most laughable option available.
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Again only the ignorant would think this was an option at all. Nukes are used against nations not terrorist, terrorist have no nation which makes it easy for them to attack with little chance of being hit back. The mistake AQ made was to stay fixed in one place long enough for us to put boots on the ground. Their second mistake was to join the fight in Iraq, in doing so they drew all supporters like a magnet to a killing field they can't win in. Their own actions turned supporters against them the same way the Nazi's and the Soviets did in times past.

The funny thing is the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan was EXACTLY what Bin Laden wanted. He believed that if he could mount an attack inside the states, that the US would overreact and send in the troops to invade entire countries. His argument was that US occupation of muslim countries would turn more folks against the U.S, and that's precisely what has happened.
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Yeah, how is that working for them so far, they had massive support in the beginning as with all terrorist but now they are running out of dumb bombs and finding fewer and fewer people willing to die for no gain. While at the same time they are losing people every day they can’t replace easily. They are losing people from the middle and the bottom so quickly that without the help of Iran they would have run out of support long ago. Now even Iran is having second thoughts which means that AQ has lost their biggest supporter in the area.

Funny, there was a large outpouring of fear and patriotism (both emotions) used to justify the invasion of Iraq. If you will remember Bush stated in a speech that Saddam had WMD's and was planning on nuking the states. This was nothing more than fearmongering and playing on people's emotions to convince them!
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This as well as the rest of your arguments have been hashed over for at least two years on JU by a guy named col. Gene, and every one was refuted at least a dozen times with hard facts that are a matter of public record. I see you still ignore the fact that Saddam stated publicly that he would give away his weapons to anyone that would use them on the US or Israel, that is a threat. You don’t have to be able to carry out the threat you just have to make it do get killed. If I told you that I was going to hunt you down and kill you it would mean nothing to you, if I had your address, phone number and a picture of you in front of your home you would worry a lot. In both cases I could be sitting in my home in Georgia and you would not know if I was serious or not. If you knew something about me then you would call the police to protect you. Our troops were out police. If Saddam was not serious he should not have made the threat because once a leader of a nation makes that kind of threat it is like a declaration of war. Sort of what AQ did almost 11 years ago, we ignored it but he followed through, should we have waited till there was a mass death to respond?
Reply #24 Top
Yes, because nukes are the ultimate weapon to defeat terrorism ~_^
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Yes, because playing nice and being politcally correct with islamic terrorists has worked so well.


The funny thing is the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan was EXACTLY what Bin Laden wanted. He believed that if he could mount an attack inside the states, that the US would overreact and send in the troops to invade entire countries. His argument was that US occupation of muslim countries would turn more folks against the U.S, and that's precisely what has happened.
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Oh goodness.  If you read you will find that osama was surprised that the U.S. responded to the attacks, because the U.S. had shown weakness when attacked before. 

Reading your comments it seems people like yourself buy into enemy propaganda way too easily.