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HuntingX's Build Efficient Build Orders: Tec

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HuntingX's Build Efficient Build Orders: Tec

Detailed, Explicit Builds

from Sins Forums
   Let's get this show on the road.  Today we start with Tec.  We'll move on to Advent at some point, then finally Vasari... at some point.

These builds are explicitly for 2v2 and 1v1.  They are not for comp stomping (although they WILL comp stomp quite well), or for playing ffa (again, you can pretty much kill a few people before their bad builds get online).

Build 1:
Standard 1v1 (non rush) build on small-medium map:
1.  Buy 2 units of crystal
2.  Upgrade home planet
3.  1 Worker on Cap ship, 1 worker on crystal
4.  Build 2 scout frigates, scout
5.  Start Mazra or Kol (either works fine) when cap ship fac finishes
6.  Start 2 metal extractors
7.  Build colony ship
8.  Take nearby asteroid (all maps have 1 nearby asteroid)
9.  While taking asteroid, scuttle capital ship factory
10. Build 1 military lab
11. Finish the asteroid, colonize it, upgrade so you don't bleed cash
12. Mine all asteroids, and add 2nd military lab
13. Research lrms, start producing
14. Asteroid #2 should be cleared and ready for taking (there's almost always a second asteroid, if not, find a lightly defended terran or desert)
15. Take asteroid 2, build it up as before
16. You should be popped out now on LRMs, start research on flaks.
17. Your scouts should see opponent enemy composition.  You have 3 colonies, you can decide whether to take more or contest neutral extractors (I usually do neutrals)
18. Start research on popultion upgrade
19. Whichever colony is CLOSEST to opponent, should build at least 2 frigates factories
20. Depending on opponent unit composition, start production on Flaks and LRMs
21. Your capital should be 4 or 5 now, continue pressuring
22. Win or lose, depends on you :)

Build 2:
Hardcore rush 1v1, small map
1. Buy 2 units of crystal
2.  Upgrade home planet
3.  1 Worker on Cap ship, 1 worker on crystal
4.  Build 2 scout frigates, scout
5.  Start Soya when cap ship fac finishes
6.  Start 2 metal extractors
7.  Build 3 light frigates, then a colony ship
8.  Send Soya to enemy main base with embargo
9.  Take nearby asteroid with light frigates (all maps have 1 nearby asteroid)
10.  While taking asteroid, scuttle capital ship factory
11.  Continue harassing with Soya (jump in, embargo, jump to nearby star, recharge mana, jump in, etc.)
12.  Get asteroid operational, while building the 2 military labs.  Send the light frigates to your Soya to confuse opponent
13.  Start LRM production immediately, queue to your Soya
14.  Research pop upgrade, take neutral extractors with colony ship, and continue LRM production
15.  Since they have almost no income (no trade income early, almost all income comes from home planet which has no income due to embargo) your mass LRMs should overrun him and end the game

Build 3:
Economy build, larger 1v1, medium large 2v2
1. Buy 2 units of crystal
2.  Upgrade home planet
3.  1 Worker on Cap ship, 1 worker on crystal
4.  Build 2 scout frigates, scout
5.  Start Mazra or Kol (either works fine) when cap ship fac finishes
6.  Start 2 metal extractors
7.  Build colony ship
8.  Take nearby asteroid (all maps have 1 nearby asteroid)
9.  While taking asteroid, scuttle capital ship factory
10. Build 1 Civil lab at main
11. Finish the asteroid, colonize it, upgrade so you don't bleed cash
12. Mine all asteroids, and add 2nd civil lab
13. Start research on trade, and continue taking any planet within reach
14. Start placing trade ports as income allows, research ice or volcano depending on allegiance to home and mineral quality.
15. Deserts are a priority, you can support a ton of trade ports per desert planet
16. You're doing this with little to no units, because you expect the opponent can't get to you in time.  If they can, you shouldn't be doing this build anyway.
17. With spare slots (or upgrade as you will), add 2 military, start LRM production
18. Tech up, start mixed LRM/Flak production
19. Add static D (Gauss) at outlying colonies, continue building trade ports at inner colonies
20. Once an economic advantage is secured, mass an unholy army of LRM/Flak and charge.

General micro tips:
Flak/defense/sentinel frigates do poor dps, but have incredibly high hp for frigates.  Here are micro tips:

Target weak units first.  LRM on light frigate, etc.

Afterwards, if opponent is massing flak type units, use existing lrms to reduce their capital ship hp, while you can produce flak type units of your own.  The multiple angled shots from flaks are actually a BAD thing.  It REDUCES flak dps since they can't use all their guns at once.  Their effective dps is horrible, but since LRMs don't really kill them, it becomes some horrible attrition fest.  Ignore that, and kill their big ships.

Use Mazra's aoe abilities, or Kol's gauss, to quickly destroy flaks (very quickly).  Flaks cannot damage capital ships.  Not even 10-20, will do significant damage (they barely break your shield regen) --> it ends up being something like 1 dps per flak after damage reduction and shield mitigation :(

If you need, the heavy cruisers pack a good punch.  With Tec, you are strong at two points.  Early game, LRMs are highly efficient killers.  Mid game, your economy is much stronger if you went build #3.  Stay with your strengths.

1 more note, Akkon appears to be bugged.  The aura adds no dps to the units (although increases range), making it worthless.  I'd suggest a buff is needed.
117,670 views 56 replies
Reply #27 from Sins Forums Top
On question on build 2? Umm.. What about the Capitol ship in the opponents main base? You know, the one that the Soya embargo is supposed to just sit an not be bothered by anything? With the LRM's spamming to the opponents home base, what do you suppose your opponent might be doing to counter this little strategy of yours? :)


Tim-
Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #28 from Sins Forums Top
You don't stay in their base

You just embargo and jump to a nearby star for mana regen, then jump in again when able.
Reply #29 from Sins Forums Top
Oh, no. *** bleep *** NOT build order! Say it ain't so!Lols I are so great I do the same thing every game and I winz hehe!I object to a few things here. First of all, the loss of imagination and tactics, and replacement with a set-in-stone order. Secondly, to your advocacy of mindless spam. Bah! I have taken out armies of LRM and Flak with only 2/3 the number of skirmishers and assailants and NO MICRO, and I will continue to do so. Thirdly, to your sheer ARROGANCE in coming in here and STATING that those are 'the' build orders. I mean, who the hell do you think you are, coming in here as a 'master' and 'teaching' us? *** bleep *** you!I swear to god, I will destroy anyone who just memorizes these build-orders, anytime, any map.


Shame on mods for not removing this post for profanity.

noThat's not usually what happensPeoples' computers have different speedsSo usually one person loads a lot faster than everyone else


Hmm every other RTS I can think of prohibits players from beginning until all users PC's have fully loaded. If this one doesn't that's a pretty big oversight.. I suppose since sins tends to play out a lot longer than other RTS it's not at as bad.

Reply #30 from Stardock Forums Top
Shame on mods for not removing this post for profanity.


Would be a shame if mods had to be our babysitters on this forum. The more mature of us should know how to react to flamers/OTs/profanities by not addressing the post at all. Those attention deprived will soon get the message, like a 2 year old throwing a tantrum.

Back to topic: I am seeing a definite pattern of developing a begin-game strategy. Exploring other options that would cummulatively render this order invalid would requiring mastering the "du jour" strategy first. Some witty quote from Sun Tzu would follow here. Granted, like Chess and Go, which have been played for years countless, there are just some beginning moves that, strategically, can never be recovered from (think openings like knight to the rook's column or placing a stone on 1,1).
'Tis the same with Sins, and with any strategy in game or life.

Thank you HuntingX for more insight on the popular opening move in Sins. I will look into ways on how to effectively counter the strategy.
Reply #31 from Sins Forums Top
Shame on mods for not removing this post for profanity.Would be a shame if mods had to be our babysitters on this forum. The more mature of us should know how to react to flamers/OTs/profanities by not addressing the post at all. Those attention deprived will soon get the message, like a 2 year old throwing a tantrum.


You do know this is a game right? Most games (including this one) market primarily to kids.. sure the difficulty level of this game may push the demographic to a more mature audience but that is no excuse for having this type of language on public forums. When I see a post that's 2 weeks old with a user dropping multiple f-bombs that would have been filtered by pretty much every other forum I've ever used, I'm concerned. Mods should be ashamed (if there are any, if there aren't the webmaster should be ashamed for not having any!)

Reply #32 from Sins Forums Top
Oh, no. Christ, no. Fuck. Fuckity fuck fuck. NOT build order! Say it ain't so!Lols I are so great I do the same thing every game and I winz hehe!I object to a few things here. First of all, the loss of imagination and tactics, and replacement with a set-in-stone order. Secondly, to your advocacy of mindless spam. Bah! I have taken out armies of LRM and Flak with only 2/3 the number of skirmishers and assailants and NO MICRO, and I will continue to do so. Thirdly, to your sheer ARROGANCE in coming in here and STATING that those are 'the' build orders. I mean, who the hell do you think you are, coming in here as a 'master' and 'teaching' us? FUCK you!I swear to god, I will destroy anyone who just memorizes these build-orders, anytime, any map.


Doing the same thing every game will make you lose, as it makes people know what to expect from you.

That's why HuntingX makes these, so all the noobs will copy and we all know what to expect. :D

Starting the game one way is one thing, after the start you adapt or die.


And no one caught the Sova typo?
Reply #33 from Sins Forums Top
But then again, it gives a good start for noobs like me to know even a way to GET started. I mean, before, I just sit there thinking about what to do and often not have enough money for ANYTHING, yet this gives me a template to work off of and I've already started to implement things that I think would work better in my preference.
Reply #34 from Sins Forums Top
Thanks for posting all these excellent guides, HuntingX! I was hoping Gamereplays might set up a portal for this game, but unfortunately that isn't in the cards. Anyhow, thanks for not letting the haters stop you from sharing your strategies.

What is your opinion on a 2v2 start involving a Sova? Is it worthwhile? I've not yet gotten to play much online (waiting for my teammate to purchase his copy,) so this is just theorycrafting, but would a dual Sova/battleship start in 2v2s be effective? You could lock down one players capital hardcore, and you'd have pretty good damage output to fend off their own capital ship. Meanwhile, you and your teammate could get up their military production (while destroying the targeted player's production) to really seal the deal.
Reply #35 from Sins Forums Top
okay I didn't notice this at first but the Soya "steals resources" from the enemy planet. How many though? It sounds like a crippling strategy if you play map like point blank....
Reply #36 from Sins Forums Top
30%, 60%, and 100% at levels 1, 2, and 3 of Embargo, respectively.

HuntingX, I know in 1v1 games the majority of tech is worthless, but are there certain breakpoints in larger games where it becomes useful? Specifically, when do you recommend getting the various damage and armor/shield upgrades?
Reply #37 from Sins Forums Top
With tec, the + hp upgrades are almost always useful (cheap, tier 1)

Likewise, the armor upgrade is also very good

As far as damage upgrades go, I RARELY touch them, but maybe someone has a better idea.

Sova is only good on very small maps, where you can keep them under embargo. On larger maps, I don't think it's very effective.
Reply #38 from Sins Forums Top
Ah, thanks. Well, I did a little math for the weapons tech, and the results aren't pretty. OK, so the T2 (2-lab, is that T2 or T1 in Sins?) weapon tech increases your DPS by 5% each level, costing 600/50/100 for the first level and 700/75/125 for the second level. The break-even point is going be to be when increasing your fleet's size by 5% costs more than getting the upgrade. The break-even point differs per each resource (the metal break-even point comes before the credits break-even point which comes before the crystal break-even point.) Going by credits (a midway compromise, and the most important resource anyhow), you should aim to get the first-level upgrade at roughly 48 LRMs, and the second level at roughly 56 LRMs. Yeah...pretty late. The other levels of that tech line are all much, much more expensive, plus they'll require that you've built additional military labs, which makes those techs EVEN LESS cost-efficient.

Thus, I suppose in optimal play you might consider getting all the early level upgrades once you've hit about the 50 LRM mark. The break-even point for the first level of the next damage upgrade (factoring in the cost of the extra two labs) comes in at roughly 200 LRMs, and the final damage upgrade break-even point is at about 250LRMs. Clearly, teching is not a very optimal strategy in Sins.
Reply #39 from Sins Forums Top
Jodonnell, your reasoning is correct, but your math is off I believe.

With a 5% increase (which is pretty standard across the board for tech bonuses), the break even point is 20, not 50. I'll illustrate.

Lets say you have a ship rated at 20 DPS like the siege frigates. A 5% increase in damage gives each ship 1 extra DPS upping the DPS to 21 per frigate.

20 Frigates doing 20 damage = 400 damage per second
20 Frigates doing 21 damage = 420 damage per second
21 Frigates doing 20 damage = 420 damage per second

Lets say you could buy 2 ships for the cost of 1 tech, then it wouldn't pay off until 22 or 23 ships.

Every frigate after 21-23 would pay off more tech wise depending on the cost of the tech and the cost of the ships getting the bonus. Also, it would allow you to have a smaller fleet logistics level which have an increasingly negative effect on your overall economy making the tech even more valuable.

Ofcourse, if you're playing a small map with rush tactics, the tech is just not going to pay off.
Reply #40 from Sins Forums Top
Here is how I calculated it -

You can choose to increase your DPS by 5% in one of two ways - you can purchase 5% more ships, or you can upgrade each frigate's damage by 5%. LRMs cost 250/40/20. 5% of that is 12.5/2/1. Going with credits here, the 600 credit cost of the tech is 48 times that. Verifying the numbers, 48 LRMs costs 12000 credits. Increasing your fleet size by 5% (2.4 more LRMs) to effect a 5% DPS increase would cost 600 credits, or in other words, the same as the tech cost. Past that point, building more LRMs gives you less DPM per credit than getting the tech would.
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Reply #41 from Sins Forums Top
Why must we wait the longest for Vasari? :( Good B.O. either way - looking forward to #3 in the series...
Reply #42 from Sins Forums Top
The set of Vasari build orders is already out....

Jodonnel is correct with his calculations.

Krauser, you don't even include technology cost in yours, you just did 1/.05, which is obviously wrong :(
Reply #43 from Sins Forums Top
To clarify - using Krauser's method of reckoning:

When I have 48 LRMs, my total DPS is 528 (base DPS of 11, as per http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p7xc_snd9Cc-6o2UwvPEWUg&gid=2). Increasing my DPS by 5%, or by 26.4 DPS, would require me to build 2.4 more LRMs (26.4/11), at a cost of 600 credits (same as the tech.)

Using your example, at 20 frigates, I have 220 DPS. To increase it by 5% (11 more DPS,) I would only need to buy one more LRM, which is substantially cheaper than the tech. At 23 frigates, I'd have 253 DPS, and an extra 5% (12.65 more DPS) would be more efficiently acquired by purchasing an additional LRM than teching.

Also, bear in mind that it's generally better to spread your risk across multiple ships, especially given how fragile LRMs are. Thus, you should skew your decisions towards maximizing quantity over quality and simply use some microz and retreat your low-health guys, as unit preservation is always the most efficient tech. The more LRMs you have, the more damage you do AND the higher your total HP pool. Upgrading the damage tech alone does not make your guys any more survivable, and will make individual losses more significant in terms of your post-death DPS total.
Reply #44 from Sins Forums Top
Hunting, you should read the whole thing before you comment.

Lets say you could buy 2 ships for the cost of 1 tech, then it wouldn't pay off until 22 or 23 ships.


A direct quote out of my post. It really depends on what ships you are buying. The tech boost also effects your Capital ship dps as well as most if not all of the other ships you build. If you're buying something close to what a cruiser costs, its nearly the same.

Really what Jodonnell is showing is how ridiculous LRM's are DPS per dollar.

Now, a person is going to hit a logistics cap just building ships sooner and the logistics tech costs money, and has a background upkeep penalty.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that, 48 ships is a bit high, considering that all of your ships get them, including capital ships, and that a person is unlikely to build only 48 consecutive LRM's (which really are out of control, DPS per dollar wise, many ships aren't that efficient, but are likely to be necessary and would get the tech boost). There is also the logistics penalty that tech'ing up may help you avoid.

I'm not debating the idea of holding back on tech until your fleet is big for the payoff, I just think that 48 is a bit high.

Reply #45 from Sins Forums Top
Shame on mods for not removing this post for profanity.Would be a shame if mods had to be our babysitters on this forum. The more mature of us should know how to react to flamers/OTs/profanities by not addressing the post at all. Those attention deprived will soon get the message, like a 2 year old throwing a tantrum.You do know this is a game right? Most games (including this one) market primarily to kids.. sure the difficulty level of this game may push the demographic to a more mature audience but that is no excuse for having this type of language on public forums. When I see a post that's 2 weeks old with a user dropping multiple f-bombs that would have been filtered by pretty much every other forum I've ever used, I'm concerned. Mods should be ashamed (if there are any, if there aren't the webmaster should be ashamed for not having any!)




What are you stupid? The typical gaming demographic is 18-26... Most popular games, by far, are rated M, and are not even allowed to be marketed to kids.

Fuck.
Reply #46 from Sins Forums Top
Really what Jodonnell is showing is how ridiculous LRM's are DPS per dollar....I'm not debating the idea of holding back on tech until your fleet is big for the payoff, I just think that 48 is a bit high.


No, what I'm showing is the break-even point where teching gives you a net positive RoI. 48 is high, sure, but it is the mathematical break-even point where it is just as efficient (credits-wise) to buy the tech as it is to build an equivalent DPS-worth of additional LRMs. Admittedly, I did not factor in the cost of researching the supply upgrade, but considering that you absolutely must get the first level or two of it eventually anyhow, I feel that's a non-issue.
Reply #47 from Sins Forums Top
With Lrms attacking other lrms the breaking point to research the tech, even if you already have all the labs required, is at around 95 LRMs.


Really what Jodonnell is showing is how ridiculous LRM's are DPS per dollar.


Well, with light frigates vs light frigates, the point is around 85 light frigates before the research is worth it. That's really not that much different.

What it shows is how cost inefficient weapons research is in this game.
Reply #48 from Sins Forums Top
With Lrms attacking other lrms the breaking point to research the tech, even if you already have all the labs required, is at around 95 LRMs.


LOL are you kidding me? That's awful!

How do you figure that number, though? Anti-medium does 100% damage to light armor. I think my math should hold up regardless of damage modifiers, though (i.e. 5% more damage is 5% more damage, whether we're looking at small or big numbers.)

What it shows is how cost inefficient weapons research is in this game.


Precisely. However, this is a problem with pretty much all tech in the game.
Reply #49 from Sins Forums Top
Jodonnell, the thing is, if you're buying ships that cost more, like say, a heavy cruiser, which is nearly the cost of the tech upgrade, then the number of ships required drops a bit.

Plus, with getting a free capital ship, pretty much everyone is going to have a capital ship or 2 before reaching 48 LRM's. The weapons tech affects the capital ship and you get additional free damage. If you're forced to buy some specialty ships that don't have quite as high DPS per credit value of a LRM, then the number drops also.

You definitely make a good point though. I used to wait a while before upgrading, but I think I'll wait just a bit longer.
Reply #50 from Sins Forums Top
These look good. Thanks for providing a good baseline build order to the community.