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Science Lesson From a Creationist

Science Lesson From a Creationist

To Help Clarify Things

I would just like to clear up something for future discussions about Evolution vs Creation Science.  There are some things that are agreed upon and others not.  So I thought I'd list them for future reference. 

 

Creationists do not dispute:
natural selection
microevolution
variation within species
existence of fossils
extinction
genetics
homology (as proof of a common designer)

Creationists reject:
millions of years earth history
megaevolution: molecules to man
accumulation of favorable mutations
origin of life from non-life
vestifial organs
homology (as proof of a common ancestor)

23,875 views 110 replies
Reply #76 Top
Our truth? What is that? Is that a FACT or OPINION?


"Our truth" means that it's our truth...as in everyone's...well, except creationists. You don't seem to consider it truth...you attack its merit every chance you get and to this very day have not yet succeeded in busting evolutionary theory. :)

I believe they are teaching lies.


Lies? Really? How is it a lie when they say, "This is the evidence, this is what happened?" It's not like people are just making this up to attack religion. It's not a war, it's just what we find but you've all gone and turned it into a war.

It's not equal consideration you all want, it's YOUR belief you want passed on to children.

Evolution is a scientific theory and should be regarded as such. Like any other theory in science today. We don't teach alchemy alongside chemistry, or magic alongside physics...why would we teach religion alongside biology? I mean, after all alchemy and magic are also alternative explanations for some things...they're not right, but you can believe in them if you want to.

Do see the road you're going down? Teach ID or creationism in science class and you open the floodgates for any other weird explanation for anything...and therein lies chaos. If they want to learn about creationism, then let them do their own spiritual journey...it's just that simple. Heck, it only takes 5 seconds to go over the entire idea behind it. "God created it, any questions?" Well, that's done...on to real science.

Why?


Because it's not possible. The Flintstones may sound fun, but it wasn't a documentary...hate to say it.

~Zoo
Reply #77 Top

Evolution is a scientific theory and should be regarded as such. Like any other theory in science today. We don't teach alchemy alongside chemistry, or magic alongside physics...why would we teach religion alongside biology? I mean, after all alchemy and magic are also alternative explanations for some things...they're not right, but you can believe in them if you want to. Do see the road you're going down? Teach ID or creationism in science class and you open the floodgates for any other weird explanation for anything...and therein lies chaos. If they want to learn about creationism, then let them do their own spiritual journey...it's just that simple. Heck, it only takes 5 seconds to go over the entire idea behind it. "God created it, any questions?" Well, that's done...on to real science.

The controversy over ET is in 3 areas...constitutional, academic and scientific.

So far public schools teach Evolution exclusively...that man is a product of bio-chemistry through a series of changes evolving over billions of years. It's all based on assumptions, conjecture and shifting suppositions.   

Creationists assert this violates the Constitution by exclusively teaching evolution, a a basic tenet of the religion of humanism. Such exclusivity violates free exercise rights of students who believe in Creation, violates establishment clause of 1st amendment, no state religion.

It violates neutrality no preference intent of 1st amendment and violates 14th amdndment discrimination on basis of reeligion. Excluding teaching the other side of the debate violates parental rights to direct their childs/moral spiritual beliefs and deprives student's right to hear all relevant educational material.

Teaching all aspects of a subject is true academic freedom anything less is indoctrination. Students should get a balanced presentation.

 

 

"Our truth" means that it's our truth...as in everyone's...well, except creationists.

 

Evolution is an unproven theory...it hasn't been demonstrated...so What part of Evolution is truth?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reply #78 Top
Because it's not possible. The Flintstones may sound fun, but it wasn't a documentary...hate to say it.


I wanted a baby elephant vaccuum cleaner...
Reply #79 Top
no state religion.



Evolution is not a religon. It has been supported with various experiments and observations over the course of the last century and a half. How many times do I have to say this before you understand it?

If theory=religion then it's time to bust out the Church of Atomic Theory, the Law of Gravity Church, the Holy Ministry of Decision Theory, St. Extreme Value Cathedral...yeah, that's going to happen.


Evolution is the best theory we have for the origin of life, what the hell else are we going to teach?

God created us in a magic poof? Is that scientific in anyway? Is it? No...no it is not. It is a personal belief that you want to perpetuate through the school system and thereby making it a state religion, or at the very least county religion.

Evolution is an unproven theory.


WTF? Seriously...didn't I go over the definition of theory? You can support it, but you don't prove it. You only have support. So far, we keep finding support...support, support, support for around 150 years.

What part of Evolution is truth?


Pretty much the part that's right. Things change over time. Do they not? The world is not and has never been a static place. Is that not the truth? Has it always been the same?


~Zoo
Reply #80 Top

Our truth" means that it's our truth...as in everyone's...well, except creationists. You don't seem to consider it truth...you attack its merit every chance you get and to this very day have not yet succeeded in busting evolutionary theory

Why do you keep saying this stuff Zoo?  You know I believe in the evidence, it's the "well we believe this or we think that" I have a problem with.  Com'on Zoo.  Think about what I'm saying.

Fact is fact.  Evidence is Evidence.  Belief is Belief.  We should be able to get thru this by using those three little test questions I keep speaking about.  That's the criteria. 

 You're doing alot of talking Zoo, but you're not giving me any facts.  You're giving me a......"well since I'm not a Christian, I have to believe in this Evolution stuff because that's what I am....an Evolutionist."   Creationists believe in Science as well.   Science and Christianity are NOT mutually exclusive. 

God created us in a magic poof? Is that scientific in anyway?

Remember what my son said?  Remember he said an Evolutionist doesn't really want to get into a conversation with a Creationist on Origins. 

Any poofing going on is coming from YOUR side.  You've got SOMETHING coming from NOTHING not us.    Ex nihilo nil

Think about this......there are 1500 miles of Highway in the lungs....forget about the brain.  Our eye twitches so we can see.  Do we tell it to?   How many billions of cells are in one human?   We have 206 bones and 650 muscles and if we break a bone it can repair itself by gowing?  How did this just happen?

Have you ever really looked at the Emperor Penguins in the Antarctia?   How amazing they are?  Do you know they only lay one egg and do you know how unique they are?  Think about the first parent with the first egg.  What would happen if they screwed up? 

Think about how they bring new life into the world.  Who taught the first penguin male to hold the egg on his feet under his flap for three months while his wife goes fishing?  I mean less than two minutes in the fresh Artic air means instant death for this egg.  How did those first Penguins know to move together in a corkscrew pattern constantly so they don't freeze to death?  How in the earth did we get a group of Penguins to evolve all at once anyhow at the same exact time to do this?  They need a community to even stay alive. Do you know these are the only penguins that allow such close personal contact?  THey need to because otherwise they'd all die. 

I mean how did the first of anything know how to do the things to keep their species alive?  The very first anything?  One mistep and they're dead.  So did just another one evolve after that? 

Like I said, you don't want to start talking origins.  I'd just have you go to any nature movie and try to explain about the Marsupial Frog  (with the pouch) or the Maloch Horridus Lizard or a Head Standing Beetle etc. 

How did that first head standing beetle know he had to stand upside down to get water just from condescension?  If the fist one doesn't figure this out......no more beetles. 

To me it's sort of going down the beach and looking at a beautiful sand scculpture and walk away speaking of its wonderful evolving. 

And you think we're crazy?   At least we have an explanation that makes sense. 

 

 

 

 

Reply #81 Top
......"well since I'm not a Christian, I have to believe in this Evolution stuff because that's what I am....an Evolutionist."


Never proclaimed to not be Christian. :) I'm not your variety of Christian, but Christian is all I can claim to be...what with the monotheism, and all that.

I never said I "had" to believe in evolution...I just know it to be a pretty reliable theory. Makes sense to me, and therefore I have no issue with it and readily add it to my repetoire.



As for the rest of that, you basically admit it's too hard to understand it. Admittedly it's complicated, but it's not evidence of a divine creator...unless you desperately want it to be. I could explain all those things...but frankly, I'm really tired of it.

You seem to forget that the earth was a very different place long ago. In fact as I seem to recall there was one huge continent, Pangea. Also there was a different climate and atmosphere. (Then again, you probably don't believe that either)

It's not like a bird was dropped in a frigid wasteland and had to figure it all out on its own. The beetle didn't get placed in the desert and have to figure out how to drink on its first day. These climates established themselves slowly and the animals that lived there changed along with it. Getting cold? Get fatter. Eggs gettin' too cold to sit on? Try to put'em on your feet. Can't find water? Look around when it's misty. Water sticks to you? Maybe you can drink it.

Things change when their environment changes...if they don't change, then they die. That's the rule, and that's why you see extinction. Those animals couldn't cut it and they all died. The ones that did figure out a way lived.


To me it's sort of going down the beach and looking at a beautiful sand scculpture and walk away speaking of its wonderful evolving.


By the way, I'd like to point out the natural formations that resemble faces and figures that people always take note of. You've seen things that look like faces on mountains, and heck, even the moon.

But like I say, a living thing is not comparable to an object- a sculpture is static, life is dynamic and can change.



Now if you'll excuse me I have to go be racist, punch babies, maybe a murder or two, and then pay homage to the dark lord Darwin for my atheistic and evil ways. Also I have to think up more crazy theories that will try to tear down the structure of Christianity.

Toodles.

~Zoo
Reply #82 Top
KFC writes:
Creationists reject:
millions of years earth history
megaevolution: molecules to man
accumulation of favorable mutations
origin of life from non-life
vestifial organs
homology (as proof of a common ancestor)


Zoo posts: #68
People didn't come from monkeys, we came from a common ancestor of apes.


We did? This is quite an astounding assertion considering the fact there is simply no scientific evidence that species(macro)-evolution of life forms ever occurred.

Fossil remains in the sedimentary rock strata are the only real hope of finding evidence that species evolution might have occurred in the past. I can provide quote after quote from scientists who say that thus far, there is absolutely no indication from the fossil record that speices evolution ever occurred.

A couple of questions Zoo.

Why don't textbooks discuss the "Cambrian explosion", in which all major animal groups appear together in the fossil record fully formed, instead of branching from a common ancestor---thus contradicting the evolutionary "tree of life"?

Why do textbooks define homology as similiarty due to common ancestry, then claim that it is evidence for common ancestry--a circular argument masquerading as scientific evidence?

Reply #83 Top
We did? This is quite an astounding assertion considering the fact there is simply no scientific evidence that species(macro)-evolution of life forms ever occurred.


According to the theory, yes. Didn't say I had evidence for that particular link...but if our theory holds true(like it has for so long) then that's what happened.

I can provide quote after quote from scientists who say that thus far, there is absolutely no indication from the fossil record that speices evolution ever occurred.


Are those scientists high? It's pretty well agreed upon that fossils indicate evolution.


"Cambrian explosion",


It's a bump in the road to be sure, but it's being worked on. There are several possible explanations, but one hasn't seemed to emerge quite yet. Although, I 'd say researching it is better than saying "God did it" and walking away. We do discuss it...no one's ever hidden that it's happened which is what you seem to be implying.

Interesting that you'd even refer to it...because according to you it never happened anyway. :) Come to play in our ballfield for a bit? ;)

Why do textbooks define homology as similiarty due to common ancestry, then claim that it is evidence for common ancestry--a circular argument masquerading as scientific evidence?


I've always understood homology as a readily observable state. Like parts in animals, thereby common ancestory is probable. Since homology is known and easily seen, the common ancestor part is the theory. It's not circular unless you set it up that way. Homology is the supporting evidence of common ancestory...common ancestory is not evidence of homology. See how that works?


Oh evolution, if only you pissed off a religion that no one takes seriously, then it wouldn't be such a hassle.

I wonder why Christians don't focus so hard on evaluating other theories like they do evolution? If you put everything under that kind of scrutiny think of all the fun you could have. :) I mean you've got scientific, economic, mathematical, physical, chemical, etc., etc., etc....so many theories to try and break.

~Zoo
Reply #84 Top
Lula posts:
I can provide quote after quote from scientists who say that thus far, there is absolutely no indication from the fossil record that speices evolution ever occurred.


Zoo posts: Are those scientists high? It's pretty well agreed upon that fossils indicate evolution.


No, after 150 some years of collected evidence and all the millions of fossils found so far do not give witness to evolution of one type of animal changing into another. If evolution occurred and is the cause of life there ought to be tons of partly evolved life forms ...for evolution to occurr this had to occur in great abundance...mucho plenty! The fossils should reveal creatures which are half fish/half animal...half ape/half men....you know the drill...one species changing into another and on and on up the evolutionary ladder...

But throughout all past history and present observation, no one, but no one has seen this done or any evidence at all that one species changed into another. Our modern species are what we find there and some extinct ones. There are no transitional or halfway forms found. Yes, there are extinct plants and animals which no longer live on earth. But even scientists agree that extinct species are not evidence of macro-evolution. Dinosaurs are proof of extinction, not evolution.

Sorry about that Zoo... the Evolutionists are having a real problem with fossils....they aren't witnesses to macro-evolution. Rather these fossils and their location as laid down in successive strata are witnesses to a great flood like the one described in Genesis 6-9.

The Flood rapidly covered the earth with water. When it did, sediments of pebbles, gravel, clay and sand were laid down in successive strata covering animal and plant life. Under great pressure, these sediments turned into what is called sedimentary rock. All that mass of water laiden material successively ocvered millions of living creatures and plants and the result is fossils which today are only found in the sedimentary rock strata.

When the Flood came the first to be covered were the slow moving animals, the next the larger and faster moving ones, and so on. When we dig in the rock strata we find the lowest has the slower moving creatures, above them the faster ones. Now, Evolutionists will say the lowest strata, the Cambrian, 570 million years old, the Plicene at 10 million and the Pleistocene at 2 million. And we learn that how they did this was that the rocks are dated from theories about the fossils and the fossils are dated from the theories about the rocks. But in actuality, the evidence shows that all the sedimentary strata with its hoardes of fossils were laid down within a short period of time.







Reply #85 Top
I wonder why Christians don't focus so hard on evaluating other theories like they do evolution? If you put everything under that kind of scrutiny think of all the fun you could have. I mean you've got scientific, economic, mathematical, physical, chemical, etc., etc., etc....so many theories to try and break.

~Zoo


First of all, I know next to nothing about the economic, mathematical, chemical, etc. theories that you speak of....having said that, I would assume they stand apart bigtime from the Macro-Evolution Theory in this one regard....they do not try to explain our origin, our very existence from the dawn of time. As we've already discussed, Evolution T. does...it teaches that God is out of the picture...it kicks God out of science and that's the rub for those who believe otherwise.

Besides that, some people just don't like and will not swallow being told something is fact when it hasn't been proven as fact.

Reply #86 Top

There are no transitional or halfway forms found

Yes, there are.  In fact, there's a link somewhere around here that shows quite a lot of them.  There are gaps, yes...but transitional fossils have been found.

 

Your flood explanation is bogus, by the way.  There is a logical precession of fossils up the geological strata.  In each section there are time specific organisms.   There aren't any reptiles before a certain point, there aren't any birds before a certain point, there aren't any people before a certain point. 

Also this would indicate dinosaurs lived alongside humans as well as giant bugs, crazy fish things, and a whole slew of crazy looking things...why has no one made record of them?  Surely if dinosaurs roamed the land you would notice and maybe try a bestiary or something or paint it on a cave wall? And these are humans with cites, language, and books, no less!  You don't think a dinosaur would come over chomp up all the stupid weak little people?  Sticks and stones only go so far when trying to bring down many tons of hungry predator.

The flood theory also neglects to say how everything survived.  I mean, you got the Noah and boat situations but that raises many more questions.  How was there enough food?  How did he get every single animal?(monkeys, cows, lions, camels, spiders, ants, flamingos)  And when the flood receeded how was there still plant life?  A crap load of salt water for 40 days is bound to kill every single plant and all freshwater fish.  The flood theory falls a little flat, in my opinion.

~Zoo

Reply #87 Top

First of all, I know next to nothing about the economic, mathematical, chemical, etc. theories that you speak of....having said that, I would assume they stand apart bigtime from the Macro-Evolution Theory in this one regard....they do not try to explain our origin, our very existence from the dawn of time. As we've already discussed, Evolution T. does...it teaches that God is out of the picture...it kicks God out of science and that's the rub for those who believe otherwise. Besides that, some people just don't like and will not swallow being told something is fact when it hasn't been proven as fact.

They explain a lot of other things that brush off mysterious God powers in light of observable events.

Miracles happening?  Just a bit of probability law. :)

God guides people?  How about a little rational economic theory to maximize our utility?

God created us from dirt?  Well, we're mostly carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen...not dirt, which is mostly silica and iron. ;)

There are thousands and thousands of theories that help us explain the world around us and don't mesh with a literal interpretation of the Bible.

:D

~Zoo

Reply #88 Top
God created us from dirt? Well, we're mostly carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen...not dirt, which is mostly silica and iron.


Well, there WAS carbon and oxygen and hydrogen in the dirt... apparently it's all used up on all us people! :D

I think I'm just kidding. :D
Reply #89 Top

I think I'm just kidding.

You'd better be. :P  Unless Adam was a huge, huge, huge man.

He's the only one said to have been molded like a little golem from the earth.

...Well, Lilith too, but we don't go there...

~Zoo

Reply #90 Top
There are thousands and thousands of theories that help us explain the world around us and don't mesh with a literal interpretation of the Bible.

~Zoo


Ha! I hear ya, Zoo.  :) 


...Well, Lilith too, but we don't go there...


Ya, let's not.  :LOL: 

Ok, I'm outta here..got a birthday cake to bake ....my daughter is going to be 22 tomorrow!
Reply #91 Top

...Well, Lilith too, but we don't go there...

good thinking Zoo! 

How was there enough food? How did he get every single animal?(monkeys, cows, lions, camels, spiders, ants, flamingos) And when the flood receeded how was there still plant life?

I can easily answer all these questions Zoo.  Do you really want to know?  Otherwise I'm just wasting my time.  Do you remember the Tusnami in Indonesia a couple years ago?  Did you remember the reports on the animals and how they went to higher ground?  Did you also hear the reports that not many animal carcases were floating around....some but mostly pets and such. 

The Flood rapidly covered the earth with water. When it did, sediments of pebbles, gravel, clay and sand were laid down in successive strata covering animal and plant life. Under great pressure, these sediments turned into what is called sedimentary rock. All that mass of water laiden material successively ocvered millions of living creatures and plants and the result is fossils which today are only found in the sedimentary rock strata.

Yes and this is where the Scientific methods of dating get skewed.  Carbon dating is ok and quite reliablie when everything stays constant, but when you have a catastrophe of this magnatude it really messes things up.  That's why the flood would add many many many years to the process but instead of a continuing drip drip drip of water we had millions and millions of gallons all at once instead and the reason why Creationists believe in the young earth theory. 

Sorry about that Zoo... the Evolutionists are having a real problem with fossils....they aren't witnesses to macro-evolution

Right.  This is a problem even acknowledged by Darwin himself.  The fossil record is quite consistent with biblical teaching of like staying like. 

Although, I 'd say researching it is better than saying "God did it" and walking away.

Well only the deists would say he walked away.  Lula and I don't have that belief.  We believe God is ever watching over his creation even now. 

Are those scientists high? It's pretty well agreed upon that fossils indicate evolution.

Ummmmm maybe Zoo you had a little bit much of something yerself.....:SURPRISED:

Reply #92 Top
Did you remember the reports on the animals and how they went to higher ground?


Oh, so the entire earth flooded but some animals found higher ground? The moon, perhaps?

Yes and this is where the Scientific methods of dating get skewed.


I would love to have some evidence where water messes with radiometric dating. :)

Well only the deists would say he walked away. Lula and I don't have that belief. We believe God is ever watching over his creation even now.


Not that God walked away...but the researchers. To say God did everything is to keep oneself in the dark about how things work or might have worked. It shuts down your investigation of...well, anything. God did it, no need to investigate, just a waste of time because we already know the answer.

That's probably my biggest pet peeve when it comes to all this.

~Zoo
Reply #93 Top

God did it, no need to investigate, just a waste of time because we already know the answer.

no, there's plenty of investigating to do without trying to find an explanation sans God.  There is so many interesting things in the animal kingdom for instance that could keep one quite busy investigating. 

I would love to have some evidence where water messes with radiometric dating.

I'm not saying water but catastrophe.  For instance if you have a continual dripping of water it would take years and years and years to wear away rock to any huge degree but if you had a great force of water all at once, what would have taken thousands of years could be caused by one main event.  That's what they found at Mt. St Helens.  Have you ever really really looked into that from a Scientific POV?  Better yet, have you ever visited there?  Fascinating stuff that went on there. 

Oh, so the entire earth flooded but some animals found higher ground? The moon, perhaps?

no silly.  Unless you want to say that the Ark was higher ground which is what I was referring to. 

When I saw what happened in Indonesia, I thought that must have been how God moved those animals.  They had a sense and usually do to these sorts of happenings.  The humans don't but the animals do.  Imagine that. 

 

Reply #94 Top
I'm not saying water but catastrophe.


This catastrophe was a flood though. Erosion of hard rock is made by constant movement of water. Loose earth is easier to move. One huge flood would not wear away hard rock very much...especially considering that it was only caused by rain...once the initial water levels rose it would have minimal effect on the rock unless it tumbled down a stream or was tossed violently in a current. Even then it takes quite sometime. Erosion is very slow and not sped up into super mega erosion by floods. Floods take loose debris easily...solid rock, not so much. Even sitting underwater doesn't propel erosion to such an extent.

Soft rock may be affected greatly...like sandstone, but stuff like granite? Hardly.

Unless you want to say that the Ark was higher ground which is what I was referring to.


Do you know how many animals are really in the world that would have to get on that ark for everything we see today to live? There are about 4,600 species of mammals, 9,800 species of birds, 8,200 reptiles, and God only knows how many arthropods. Not to mention the poor freshwater fish which were all screwed. Take two of each? Yeah, right. From all over the world, even? That's a massive feat and a huge, huge, huge boat. You also have all those plants to worry about...salt water is not good for most plants, being underwater is not good for most plants either. Also lack of sunlight would be a factor as well. All plants at that point are completely and utterly dead. No base for the food chain.

But let's say through some weird convention that all happened. Only two of each animal would severely screw up their genetics. Talk about your inbreeding...

~Zoo

Reply #95 Top

But let's say through some weird convention that all happened. Only two of each animal would severely screw up their genetics. Talk about your inbreeding...

See Zoo, this is where your lack of knowledge on the other side shows.  That's why I keep saying you're only working with one side.  It's sort of like making a decision and only seeing half the instructions.  I understand tho, because the school only teaches one side...that's why the ID people are trying to be able to teach both in school and put both out on the table, but the Evolutionists are adamant about this and one reason "Expelled" is coming out with this movie asking "if they're so right, why do they fear?" 

Some of the animals went in by sevens.  Not all went in two by two like you're asserting.  

That's a massive feat and a huge, huge, huge boat

Yes it was about the size of 152 railroad cars.  Approximately 450 long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high.  It had a deck total of 97,700 square feet or equivalent to more than an area of 20 baskeball courts.  Its total volume was around 1,500,000 cubic feet and the gross tonnage exceeded some 14,000 tons.  (Gen 6:14-16)

 Make more sense now?  That's why it took him 120 years to get this accomplished.  So yes, it was a very big boat and with only four working on it, it took some time.  Also, this amount of time gave more than enough chance for people to come to God.  God is very patient. 

Do you know how many animals are really in the world that would have to get on that ark for everything we see today to live?

Actually I've got the numbers.  Way back a leading systematic taxonomist listed what he thought would have been the numbers.  He estimated there were 3,500 mammals, 8,600 birds, 5,500 reptiles and amphibians and 25,500 worms.   There's also the thought they could have been baby animals, not full sized ones. I've also heard that maybe hibernation was used for managability, but admittedly that is just speculation or belief. 

Soft rock may be affected greatly...like sandstone, but stuff like granite? Hardly.

Are you serious?  You don't understand the capabilities of great masses of water as it forces its way to where it wants to go?  Again, go back and look at what one catastrophe did to Mt St. Helens involving Spirit Lake.  The whole lake emptied out and went rushing up the sides completely draining the huge lake.  Within a short amount of time the water came cascading down the hillside taking down every tree within miles. All of them.   This would have been small compared to the flood.  I visited there 15 years later in 1995 and couldn't belive my eyes to the damage as far as I could see for miles and miles.  One catastrophe, one body of water. 

One huge flood would not wear away hard rock very much...especially considering that it was only caused by rain

There was more than just a little rain going on.  It says that fountains of the deep exploded.  Many believe an earthquake most likely triggered this flood.  If you look at Gen 7:11 you'd see it says that "the fountains of the great deep broke up AND the windows of heaven were opened."  This has to do with subterranean waters as well as rain which contributed to the flood.  I've read alot on this in the past. 

This ark was built like a coffin.  It had no helm or bow to it.  I think it's also noteworthy that it had pitch within and without. Pitch drenching this gopher wood.   This pitch was called "Kaphar."  Most people don't know this but it also means "atonement."  This has alot of meaning and is considered a picture of Christ considering Noah was protected or atoned just like we are when we come to the wooden cross for atonement.   We can't help but get some "pitch" on us. 

 

Reply #96 Top


KFC POSTS:
I'm not saying water but catastrophe. For instance if you have a continual dripping of water it would take years and years and years to wear away rock to any huge degree but if you had a great force of water all at once, what would have taken thousands of years could be caused by one main event. That's what they found at Mt. St Helens. Have you ever really really looked into that from a Scientific POV? Better yet, have you ever visited there? Fascinating stuff that went on there.


Zoo posts:
This catastrophe was a flood though.


At first glance, it might not be so easy to understand similiarities between the geologic work that was accomplished by the Mt. St. Helens eruption and that by Noah's Flood. The former was a volcanic event; the latter a hydraulic one. Evidence reveals that volcanic activity was the common catalyst at both. When Mt. St. Helens volcano erupted in 1980, it exploded with a force of 400 million tons of TNT in one day. In the aftermath, 600 feet of strata sequences formed in just a matter of months. Later, on March 19, 1982, a giant mudflow broke through a blocked canyon on the north fork of the Toutle River and in one afternoon formed a new canyon system over 1oo feet deep with features similiar to those of the Grand Canyon, but about 1/40th scale size. Now, just reflect upon the great damage that can be caused by tidal waves to see that a flood of world-wide proportions could result in formations such as the Grand Canyon.

Zoo posts:
One huge flood would not wear away hard rock very much...especially considering that it was only caused by rain...once the initial water levels rose it would have minimal effect on the rock unless it tumbled down a stream or was tossed violently in a current. Even then it takes quite sometime. Erosion is very slow and not sped up into super mega erosion by floods. Floods take loose debris easily...solid rock, not so much. Even sitting underwater doesn't propel erosion to such an extent.

Soft rock may be affected greatly...like sandstone, but stuff like granite? Hardly.


Several evidences in the sedimentary rock strata indicate that it was laid down rapidly all at once. It seems the deep ones even down to the Cambrian have not been pressed together into solid rock. (Yet if they've been there under millions of tons for billions of years they should be!!)

The fossils found in that rock strata over thousands of cubic miles indicate rapid deposition rather than being slowly laid over a period of long eons of ages.

Geologists know well that rivers only cut through hard materials when they rush quickly straight down surfaces and slow moving rivers can only cut through softer materials. Interestingly enough, evidences shows that the Colorado River in the Grand Canyon, and the San Juan River cut through thick rock. It wasn't over millions of years, but instead were quickly cut through while they were still soft and there strata had only recently been laid down.


What do you know of the Flood?

Scripture teaches a flood, a world-wide actual event...and we certainly have renditions or legends of a Flood from ancient cultures all over the world...which is expected if the Flood was an actual event.

The Babylonian tradition tells of a great flood in Utrapishtim. Storytellers from the Mesopotamian civilations tell of a flood epic of Gilgamesh, the Assyrian culture as well...Anthropologists have collected 59 Flood legends from the aborigines of N. AMerica, 46 from S. America, 31 from Europe, 17 from the Middle East, 23 from Asia, and 33 from the south Sea and Australia. All accounts hold 3 features in common...world wide flood destroyed both people and animals, a vessel of safety, and only a small number of people survived....there are many of the features of the Flood found in other forms of literature from other ancient and much older periods.

Genesis 7:11-12 "....the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain fell upon the earth for 40 days and for 40 nights." "All the fountains of the great deep broken up" indicates that the process God used to bring about the flood was predominantly volcanic and tectonic. What do they think happened in reference to this? The fountains of the deep are probably sub-oceanic or subterranean sources of water which involved a series of volcanic reactions with prodigious amounts of water bursting up through the ground. We know that 70% or more of what comes out of volcanoes is water, in the form of steam. Anyway, one theoretic model of the plate tectonics is at the onset of the Flood, the ocean floor rapidly lifted up to 6,500 feet due to increase in temperature of the as hoirizontal movement of the tectonic plates accelerated.

According to Scripture from beginning to end, the Flood with its vast and unique consequences, lasted for 371 days, it's waters deep enough to cover every mountain then on the planet...But keep in mind before the Flood it's believed not any really high mountains existed...they were formed as a result of the flood and volcanic action and breaking up of the tectonic plates. All the continents bear evidence of having been submerged by sea water. Evidently, scientists have determined that Mt. Ararat's lava was deposited under water.

Geologists explain continental indunation as due to the depression of the land, and there is good reason to couple this with the bottom of the sea elevating as it heaved to great volcanic eruption and earthquakes. Along with the volcanic action, terrible storms raged from the skies and immense quantities of water engulfed the land flowing, grinding away at every surface. Massive wave action took its toll too. All this resulted in an astounding rate of erosion which produced sediments which resulted in the 1,000's of feet of sedimentary rock strata which we see today and upon which we've found fossils galore.

Reply #97 Top

Some of the animals went in by sevens. Not all went in two by two like you're asserting.


Still...only 7? That leaves 3 mating pairs...and one...extra. I do recall a few were 7 from the history channel or something. Something about clean and unclean animals.

See Zoo, this is where your lack of knowledge on the other side shows. That's why I keep saying you're only working with one side. It's sort of like making a decision and only seeing half the instructions. I understand tho, because the school only teaches one side...that's why the ID people are trying to be able to teach both in school and put both out on the table,


But you see, this is religion. Religion cannot be taught in schools unless it is a religion class. That's the problem. I see you have your own rationalizations and speculations...but they arise out of having your own answer to it.

Science looks for answers without being told what to expect. Therein lies why intelligent design cannot be taught in school.

There are a lot of religions out there with a lot of different creation stories...you'd have to teach every single one of them to be fair, not just your version. Teaching an objective science is what we're doing. If the kids want an alternative explanantion...then their parents can do that or they can seek it out themselves. I don't see why that's so hard, you seem to have managed to do that, why not others?

~Zoo

Reply #98 Top
Zoo posts:
Do you know how many animals are really in the world that would have to get on that ark for everything we see today to live? There are about 4,600 species of mammals, 9,800 species of birds, 8,200 reptiles, and God only knows how many arthropods. Not to mention the poor freshwater fish which were all screwed. Take two of each? Yeah, right. From all over the world, even? That's a massive feat and a huge, huge, huge boat. You also have all those plants to worry about...salt water is not good for most plants, being underwater is not good for most plants either. Also lack of sunlight would be a factor as well. All plants at that point are completely and utterly dead. No base for the food chain.

But let's say through some weird convention that all happened. Only two of each animal would severely screw up their genetics. Talk about your inbreeding...

~Zoo


Zoo posts:
That's a massive feat and a huge, huge, huge boat

KFC POSTS: Yes it was about the size of 152 railroad cars. Approximately 450 long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. It had a deck total of 97,700 square feet or equivalent to more than an area of 20 baskeball courts. Its total volume was around 1,500,000 cubic feet and the gross tonnage exceeded some 14,000 tons. (Gen 6:14-16)


Evidently we arrive at these measurments based on 17.5 inches for a cubit. The Ark was built like and enormous barge and almost uncapizeable. You mention it was the size of 152 rr cars....ya, on only one of its decks! Are you forgetting it had 3 decks? That means all included, it had a carrying capacity equal to 522 standard RR cars.

It's thought that the Ark could have carried the animals on one deck (about 152 RR cars worth) leaving one for the humans and one for storage, foods, etc.

Also, the Genesis "kinds" would not have included all species and certainly not all varieties of animals found today..The animals on the Ark would have been restricted to types or kinds.

Zoo, it's thought that since the earth was probably surrounded by a transparent vapor canopy high in the stratosphere (what Genesis calls the "waters above the firmament", and that canopy caused a greenhouse effect on all of earth and gave a uniform warm climate, that there probably were no specialized creatures adapted to extreme cold; eg no existing species of polar bears becasue there was no frigid zones for them then.

About the plants...at the onset of the Flood, the powerful action of the 46,000 mile long "fountains of the deep", at almost all latitudes, could have easily sent seeds and spores into the atmosphere and many could have survived, also plants could have survived as planned food stores on the Ark, Seeds attach themselves to animals and some could have survived this way, and others could have survived in the stomachs of dead animals as well. Seeds and spores could have survived by floating on mats of tangled vegatation.
Again, a good lesson on this can be taken from Mt. Saint Helens.

As far as the the fresh and saltwater fish, there are also plausible explanations for their survival of the Great Flood. Today, we know that many, many fish species have the capacity to adapt to to both fresh and salt water and we know that many marine organisms are able to survive changes in salinity.



Reply #99 Top
Wow. These posts are long, and I don't have the patience for any of them. Pity.

Whenever anyone discusses evolution, I just crank up the CD 'Precambrian' by The Ocean Collective and rock out to one of the greatest concept albums ever created . . . all about the evolution of the Precambrian period.

I don't have to agree with the premise of the album, all I know is that the head bangs, man.

It bangs. :CONGRAT:
Reply #100 Top

ouch!  I need to take some Asprin. 

You're right on the RR cars Lula....I know the animals could have easily fit into about 150 cars and that's what I meant.  I think the estimate I remember is that the Ark was big enough to haul 520 stock cars.  In other words, there was more than enough room in the Ark.