Reply By: rugbyshawnPosted: Thursday, September 30, 2004I know this may be too much common sense but.....Why can't the minimum wage be adjusted annually for inflation?

Hey you, pack up your common sense and get the hell outta here...can't you see we're talking about politics? Err, uhh, what I meant to say was...sounds goot to me.

(oh, but say my uncle works at the company that makes the $120 one and if I buy this TV he'll get a raise).

I know you're joking...but yeah, that would be a factor. I'm sorry, really, cause I know what you're getting at. But I buy so much stuff used and I'm all about getting a hooked up with a deal. I've traded snowboards for stereos and love going to garage sales and coming home with a coffee table for $8. I can't remeber the last time I was at the mall, and if I ever buy anything it's on clearance 95% of the time......so yahoo for capitalism.

I tried to answer it straight up....yes, I'd buy the cheaper one if purchases like this took place in an ethical vaccuum where no other factors matter....but they always do.

And I hope you're not really suggesting that higher prices always mean better quality. Sounds like someone who drives a lexus with the exact same engine as my better reselling value Camry and carries a Prada bag around with them while drinking Krystal (sp?).

You are forgetting a large percentage of the population by leaving out service jobs. It seems we are adding more service jobs to our economy and sending the higher paid jobs overseas. Don't service jobs that do not require tipping deserve a rate of pay that doesn't require 2 or 3 jobs just to make ends meet? My own boss doesn't seem to think so. I have been without a raise for over 4 years. I may be slightly handicapped but that does not mean that I should not be paid for my work at a fair rate. Finding another job is just about impossible due to my handicap, which by the way was caused by another job that proceeded to fire me for missing work due to getting injured at that job. That is my own tough luck and because of that injury I find it very difficult to do every day things such as sit and stand. Bending over or picking up any real weight is an agony. But hey that is my story

Finding another job is just about impossible due to my handicap, which by the way was caused by another job that proceeded to fire me for missing work due to getting injured at that job.

It's a shame there aren't programs out there to help workers be compensated for on-the-job injuries.
Also, I wonder if your boss would increase your wage if he were forced to or lay you off. I mean, it's just me, but if I had to choose between a huge profit loss because of living wages and consolidating my workforce, I think I'd choose the latter.

#1 Neither, I cut my own yard.
#2 C - cut it myself
#3 I buy the cheaper pair of equal quality



More than 80 studies have shown a link between an increase in minimum wage and job loss, particularly among the workers with the least skills, experience and education. The more employers are forced to pay, the less likely they are to hire, or keep, those types of workers. Instead employers are more likely to hire more qualified workers, in order to get a better return on their money.

There are probably just as many studies connecting low wages to dependency on public funds and services...something has got to give. I still am so miffed that no one is willing to budge at all on this issue. I know I have. I used to think we should all get a living wage but that's unrealistic. We could tailor fit a living wage program to benefit those that truly needed it. It doesn't have to be all one way or the other.

Suspeckted

I doubt that anyone who is against raising the minimum wage doesn't want low income workers to make enough money to live on. The difference of opinion is in method; how to do it. Typically, the left portrays those against raising the minimum wage as being against low income workers making more money. That is not true.

I, for one, feel that raising the minimum wage is not a good solution because it ultimately hurts not only the people it was meant to help, but a lot of other people as well. There are ways to improve low income wages without imposing a poor solution. And arguing against a poor solution is not the same as arguing against any solution, despite the attempts by the left to paint it as such.

Demonizing those who disagree isn't conducive to finding a solution that actually helps everyone.

"Why can't the minimum wage be adjusted annually for inflation?" How much money are you willing to spend?

Obviously the answer to your question is the annual inflation percentage. That way the bottom wages don't go down in current dollar values. It's not a neverending cycle as you suggest. In fact, the raise in wages would occur once a year (which is incidentally the definition of annual) based on the inflation rate for that year.

Helix, what do you have against people making a minimum wage that keeps up with price increases that occur within this country? If you are working the same job from one year to the next, would you not be disappointed that you can purchase less food, rent etc because while you make the same amount, the cost of everything around you has increased?

There are states who have minimum wages higher than the federal government and I don't see them spiraling out of control due to inflation....
Link to the department of labor stats....Link

As is we're paying 10x the amount for the same type of things than our grandparents did. I still hear about the nickle store.

Yes and our grandparents paid more than their grandparents did...I'm sure they heard about the penny stores back then and how it was ridiculous that milk cost a quarter...but they made more than their grandparents did as a country just as we make more than our grandparents did as a country (disregarding the recent setbacks).

Yes and our grandparents paid more than their grandparents did...I'm sure they heard about the penny stores back then and how it was ridiculous that milk cost a quarter...but they made more than their grandparents did as a country just as we make more than our grandparents did as a country (disregarding the recent setbacks).

Actually, I did some comparisons with my father once and was astonished at how much real wages vs. real cost of living has changed over the years; many workers make FAR LESS than their parents did against the cost of living (I consider "real" cost of living to be cost of essentials, basically).

This article (from the Detroit Free Press) backs your assertion, Gideon, with salary/wage numbers from the IRS and Census bureau included....

Link

This article from Bloomberg is from May but it shows how corporate profits from 2001-2003 soared based on Commerce Department numbers.
Link

But my favorite part....
This article mentions that while workers wages have been sluggish...
"CEO pay, which in 1980 was 40 times larger than that of the average worker, grew to be 400 times to 550 times bigger by 2000," William McDonough, chairman of the Public Company Accounting Oversight Board, said in an April speech at the Committee for Economic Development in Washington.

``I knew a lot of CEOs in 1980, and I can assure you the CEOs of 2000 were not 10 times better,'' McDonough said. He called the rise in executive pay ``grotesquely immoral.''

I think I see where companies who really want to cut costs could save a lot of money!!!!!

The funny thing is here... check this out. If living wage happens then we all pay more at the store. That is the botom line. Deciding to 'buy American' wil not help you if 'buying American' costs you 75% more. Spending a little bit more on American goods you say? Don't believe yourself because at the end of the day you'll wonder where it all went and the very next week you get the same quality brand for less and it won't be American made or produced.

Face it, your feeding your children and paying X amount but can pay Y amount for the same quality. You want to save for school, vacation, health... you will cheat on your "buy American". And on top of that, you know that some companies will take advantage of that and make poor quality products because "you'll buy it anyway."

What really needs to happen is that workers need to feel that I can start off at 5.25 an hour but a few years later earn 10.00 an hour. The reality is that you can work hard and be the best and still, years later, get 5.25 an hour, no benifits and no future.

THAT IS THE REAL PROBLEM

Precisely, joe...and you can't mandate that employees do that. It just skews the system.

This is why I strongly feel a set of financial incentives needs to be set in place for employers to pay their employees a fair wage, rather than penalties for noncompliance. By giving a tax credit for every dollar spent on employee wages and benefits, the majority of employers should be more than happy to pay a living wage.

Instead of demonizing companies who outsource who pay minimum wage why not put the blame where it belongs - consumers.

Instead of arguing how the government needs to force businesses to do this or that, why not have the government force people to buy American made goods? Put electric collars on everyone and everytime they buy yet another Chinese made good at Walmart or whatever it gives them a little jolt.

It really annoys me when people try to put the blame on businesses as they themselves can't be bothered to spend an extra buck on an American made good.  When I buy things, I look to see where it's from and what alternatives are available. It takes a bit more effort but I try to do my part.

I remember being in San Francisco on a media tour talking to people who were very anti-business and arguing how businesses need to pay their workers more money and then what do they do? Go out to their Korean-made vehicles to go home.

I'm in the Computer Sceince feild. Everythime, I hear about a job being outsourced to India, or Gabon, or whatever nation its trendy and profitable to export jobs to this year, it makes me wonder: maybe I should simply leave the country. It's reasonable, no? I have no serious attatchment to America---hey I love this country, but if the jobs aren't out here I'm not about to let pride stand in the way of living. Foreigners stream into America daily in search of jobs--any jobs. Why not me too, except in reverse. The cost of living in India is low. Maybe I should follow my job and my common sense and go where the money is and not stay simple because I was born here.

Its just a thought, but isn't this what globalism is about?

You want to know why IT people get outsourced to India?

I'll tell you: Because during the dot-com era IT people deluded themselves into thinking that their jobs were worth $100k. Even after the bubble, I get IT people submitting resumes demanding $80k for their services. Sorry, but I can train a high school graduate in a year to be a decent IT person.  But most companies don't have the time and inclination to do that so they just farm it out.

Since you're graduating, let me give you some advice: Your school that tells you that your CS degree entitles you to a $50k per year salary right out of college is doing you a disservice.  CS people out of college are not worth $50k anywhere. Not even in California. They may be able to find some companies that foolishly pay that much right out of college but they are the ones who will ultimately end up outsourcing their job when they wake up.

And I say that as a software developer mind you. A good experienced software developer is worth their weight in gold (figuratively). But the typical CS graduate is just a chunk of clay that takes years to get reasonable productivity out of normally.

10 years ago, a CS graduate could expect to make $25k to $30k.  Today, they seem to expect double that. Not realistic and that's why the jobs are going overseas.

Reply #70 By: Draginol - 10/6/2004 10:56:29 AM You want to know why IT people get outsourced to India? I'll tell you: Because during the dot-com era IT people deluded themselves into thinking that their jobs were worth $100k. Even after the bubble, I get IT people submitting resumes demanding $80k for their services. Sorry, but I can train a high school graduate in a year to be a decent IT person. But most companies don't have the time and inclination to do that so they just farm it out. Since you're graduating, let me give you some advice: Your school that tells you that your CS degree entitles you to a $50k per year salary right out of college is doing you a disservice. CS people out of college are not worth $50k anywhere. Not even in California. They may be able to find some companies that foolishly pay that much right out of college but they are the ones who will ultimately end up outsourcing their job when they wake up. And I say that as a software developer mind you. A good experienced software developer is worth their weight in gold (figuratively). But the typical CS graduate is just a chunk of clay that takes years to get reasonable productivity out of normally. 10 years ago, a CS graduate could expect to make $25k to $30k. Today, they seem to expect double that. Not realistic and that's why the jobs are going overseas.

Draginol is 100% correct in his assesment. I've been in the computer field for over 15 years and an IT Assistant manager and manger for the last 4 of the 15. It fell on me to sort out whose resume hit my bosses desk. And the figures he's quoting are consistant with what I saw. And VERY, very few were worth half that much.

I'll tell you: Because during the dot-com era IT people deluded themselves into thinking that their jobs were worth $100k. Even after the bubble, I get IT people submitting resumes demanding $80k for their services. Sorry, but I can train a high school graduate in a year to be a decent IT person. But most companies don't have the time and inclination to do that so they just farm it out.

Draginol, you are correct, but didn't I make this point? Actually, I was not one of the $100k guys, just $89. But my remedy was to bone up on skills that could not be outsourced. Like CNE, CCNA and MCSE. That is why, altho I am not making $89k now, I am not doing bad!

There are ways to improve low income wages without imposing a poor solution.

Such as what?

I'll tell you: Because during the dot-com era IT people deluded themselves into thinking that their jobs were worth $100k.

I agree with you, those jobs were not worth 100k, but haven't you argued elswhere that the free market decides what a person makes? Wasn't it the free market that was paying them 100k? I don't think those jobs were worth 100k and I don't think that CEO jobs are worth millions.

Fair enough, Abe, but you're not the only voice in the market.

Anyway, take a look at the Global market: It would seem that many other people also think that American labor is overpriced.

I think that Draginol is right, not just about IT jobs in particular, but about U.S. jobs in general: The problem isn't that our minimum wage is too low, it's that our median wages are too high by global standards. We're trying to raise the minimum wage beyond all reason or sanity, because at its current level it just doesn't provide us with the lifestyle we're accustomed to.

You know what "globalization" means? It means that the next generation of Americans is going to discover that they are waaay spoiled compared to the rest of the world. They're going to have to start living responsibly, carefully, and frugally, and compete in price with workers from China and India, or they're going to find themselves out of work.

And the next person that talks about "jobs Americans won't do" gets punched in the head. You want to get paid? Here's a hint: Migrant farm workers in California seem to think that their lives are better since they crossed the border. So there's your basis for comparison. Either start picking cabbages, or live like the Mexicans who didn't make the journey across the desert to get this job. But don't come complaining to me because McDonald's didn't offer you mad stock options.