Draginol Draginol

Feeling something vs. Doing something

Feeling something vs. Doing something

Why conservatives run the world

In the real world, I don't care much about politics.  Sure, I'll debate it with someone if they'd like but I'm not particularly motivated politically. On-line, I'll talk trash about politics taking a much stronger stance on positions than I would normally give since the point is to get energetic discussion going.

People who know me would describe me as a political "moderate" on most issues. But in reality, I'm all over the place. A left wing position here, a right wing position there. I cherry pick my ideology.  I'm very conservative on business/tax issues and somewhat liberal on social issues. But like I said, in the real world, I'm not motivated very much by politics. I deal with the world as it is. And in that sense, I am a conservative.

It's been my experience that people who are conservative tend to be more effective in getting things done. Things that actually do something. It's the liberals who do things that are described as "trying to make a statement".  Candle light vigils and showings of solidarity and other warm fuzzy activities make for good PR but ultimately are pointless. These activities are the hallmark of the left.

Go to a business conference of entrepreneurs and you won't find too many liberals there. In fact, the more successful someone is in the private sector, the more likely they are to be conservative. Outside entertainment and academia, you won't find that many wealthy successful liberals.

So why is that?  I think it's because conservatives deal with the world as it is rather than how they wish it was.  They are much more end result oriented. Liberals, by contrast, tend to be much more "wish really really hard that things were different".

Conservatives also tend to look at cause and effect. They have to because they end up being the ones who actually make decisions that deal with change in the real world.

Take the minimum wage or living wage advocates. They're the same people who also are against outsourcing of jobs. Well which is it?  They aren't willing to accept the reality that if you increase low skill labor costs that you are increasing the incentive to move the business out of the country. Conservatives don't have that luxury. They're the ones running those businesses. Raise their costs and they have to make some tough choices -- ones they'll be demonized for by the very people who advocated the policies that caused the problem.

And reality is a messy thing. There are no perfect solutions. There are no perfectly elegant solutions either. Most solutions require substantial trade offs.  Worse, those trade offs tend to get exponentially nasty as you near a "perfect" solution. 

Want 100% health coverage instead of 90%? Fine, expect massive trade offs in exchange in the form of waiting periods, a slowing in innovation, and decrease in quality of care.

Want to reduce CO2 emissions substantially today? Fine, increase the required gas mileage on cars to 35MPH. But that will mean the end of SUVs, mini-vans, and the subsequent loss of millions of jobs. Which some guy like Michael Moore would then promptly blame on "greedy fat cat businesses".

Want to "save" a few hundred acres of tundra in the ANWR? Fine, but expect our dependence on foreign oil to increase at a faster rate which helps fuel the problems in the middle east.

Conservatives, by their nature, tend to be much more pragmatic. They look for solutions. Real solutions. A protest march isn't a solution.  It's a hobby.  This tends to make conservatives seem like the bad guys because they end up having to make the tough real world decisions that have negative consequences for some even as they try to benefit the many.

Where the liberal would go all out to save a single person in the village, even if that meant potentially sacrificing the entire village, the conservative would be more likely to take the "cruel" but pragmatic route of letting the individual villager suffer for the good of the entire village. That's not because they like to see people suffer but because they have to weigh the larger issues.

It's sad that millions of children live in poverty. A liberal would argue persuasively that a nation as wealthy as the United States should ensure that no child lives in poverty.  A conservative would agree that it's a shame but that as a practical matter, unless you're willing to sacrifice the rest of the society for it, you're not likely to solve that problem. Virtually all children (statistically) that live in poverty do so because their parents made very bad and irresponsible choices. Every practical solution to solve this will end up seeming cruel (take the child away from the irresponsible parent looks cruel and adds more expense for instance).

Liberals are also the ones who push for more help for Africa.  A land where the populations are simply far too high to be supported by the land they are on (with some notable exceptions where corrupt government is the cause).  Do you send over food aid, artificially masking the underlying problem and creating generations of dependents living in misery? The liberal won't worry about that. They just want to show how much they care. The "cruel" conservative is more likely to look at the big picture. Consistent food aid creates extensive long term damage and can prop up corrupt and brutal regimes.

By the same token, liberals tend to be the ones who argue for AIDS treatments to be sent to Africa at low cost. Thus increasing the healthy life span of the millions of Africans who are HIV positive. Sounds wonderful doesn't it? Except that it also increases the length of time that the disease spreaders will be able to effectively spread the disease. 

Then again, liberal groups also got DDT banned for export which was the world's most effective way of killing mosquitoes. Malaria now kills millions of Africans because there is no substitute for DDT that is remotely as cheap and effective. But some birds are safe. Well, maybe.

I could go on and on but I think the point is made. It's not that liberals are bad. They're not. They're just ineffectual in the real world. They are too busy trying to do emotionally satisfying deeds rather than deeds of practicality.  Where they do have an impact is in stifling the ability of conservatives for doing what has to be done by constantly demonizing them.

Liberals decried the sanctions on Iraq that had allegedly killed 500,000 children. If you lift the sanctions, Saddam would have gone forward with his nuclear program (that, btw, is something that they did find ample evidence of in Iraq -- he was just waiting out the sancations).  The other option is to remove Saddam and put someone in that isn't going to try to create nasty weapons, invade their neighbors, and aid terrorists.  Those are your 3 choices and no matter which choice is made, the liberals will demonize the result.

Conservatives who try to put forth practical realistic solutions get demonized as being "hateful", "bigoted" and be called (of course) "Nazis" or "fascists" (even though Nazis and fascists were socialists and technically left wing -- Hitler was many things but the vegetarian artist from Austria was definitely not a conservative).  It's demonization that liberals have any general real world impact and that's only because they're impacting the people who actually do things in the real world - conservatives.

I don't expect to change any minds here. You'll have the liberals who have excessive free time trying to nit-pick my examples with exceptions to a generalization as if that somehow disproves the generalization ("Hey Bush is trying to send AIDS help to Africa too!") but none of that changes the bottom line: That the people who run the companies, who actually create the "stuff" we use, are almost always conservative in nature because to accomplish things in the real world means dealing with the world as it actually is rather than as we wish it was.

20,935 views 69 replies
Reply #26 Top
Works of beauty like abortion on demand, hmm? How very "moral" of you. Oh wait, liberals believe everyone has their own morality, which is why you can see the destruction of an individual who just hasnt even had a chance to be born yet as a moral stance.

An 8 month old baby's continued existance has no value unless it travels completely outside of the vagina before a "doctor" jams scissors into the back of its skull to scramble its brains? (Thats what partial-birth abortion is, if you didnt know.)

Things of beauty like a crucifix in a jar of piss, paid for with tax dollars? Gay parades featuring bestiality and pedophilia? Slavering celebrity worship? Welfare mothers? The slow disappearance of religious freedom in this country, unless you happen to be something OTHER than Christian? Teaching 4th graders about condoms when we cant teach them to read? Yeah, beautiful stuff, that.

Arghgh...here i go again...(slaps self)

Lets just say that i see little beauty in many things that liberals "stand for"....and some of the ugliest comments ive seen on JU come from these people who you claim to care more about living moral lives (where we all define our own morals) and creating things of beauty.

Hate isnt beautiful, and all you have to do is look at the comments of people like jesusstayscrunchy or the faces of most of those protesters at the RNC to see it, raw, ugly, and foaming at the mouth.


Touche, little whip. But mid-birth abortion to save the mother is a fairly utilitarian view rather than a "liberal" one. That the majority of American liberals support it is a surprise to me, if indeed support for it could be called a mainstream liberal belief.

Slavering celebrity worship is not a symptom of the liberal but merely a side-effect of modern techniques of political control, where the bread and circuses of ancient Rome are remade in the latest Hollywood epic and the latest sex scandal. It's as common in conservative countries as it is in liberal ones. And I agree with you about the direction modern art is taking. There's far too many works being made these days with our money that cannot rightly answer the question, "sure it's weird, but is it art?"

But I would have attributed American religious intolerance movements to the activities of the Christian right - if they are liberals according to US politics then the label's been even more corrupted than I thought.

And sure, there are some ugly, ugly people who claim to be liberals. But it's just as easy to find right-wingers who are just as bad. What about DoctorCreature or st1art? I'd rather ignore the crazies on both sides than believe that they are indicative of the beliefs of the many rather than their own nut-job few.
Reply #27 Top
Some people seem incapable of discerning conservatism in personal behavior from conservatism's political backings.

Conservatives, by and large, are the ones who start companies, employ people, and build new things. It's not even a remotely close thing either.

The political agenda that conservatives and liberals choose to support is immaterial to this discussion.
Reply #28 Top
"Some people seem incapable of discerning conservatism in personal behavior from conservatism's political backings."


And some attention mongering-people take it to an extreme; Conservatives Must Die

Apparently we're all fascists...

Reply #29 Top
Outside entertainment and academia, you won't find that many wealthy successful liberals.So why is that? I think it's because conservatives deal with the world as it is rather than how they wish it was.


Maybe it's because liberals aren't interested in creating wealth. Maybe they are more interested in spending their time making the world a better place to live.
Reply #30 Top
"Maybe it's because liberals aren't interested in creating wealth. Maybe they are more interested in spending their time making the world a better place to live."


I'd have to agree with that to a point. I think, though it is a bitter pill to swallow, that only the rarest person that hasn't been self-motivated ever ends up really effecting the heath and happiness of their culture. Most of the ultra-liberal people I have known have all had really, really good intentions, but pretty much spent all their time talking to each other and being self-indulgent. Maybe that is why they tend to hate people who actually do have power...

Granted, you can't overlook the help that folks who volunteer, lobby, etc., get done. In the end, though, it seems to be the capitalists that have the most clout to get things done. Influence is a commodity, and the most selfless generally have the least.

Reply #31 Top

Maybe it's because liberals aren't interested in creating wealth. Maybe they are more interested in spending their time making the world a better place to live.


And they do this how?


The creation of wealth will help the world much more (i.e. more jobs) than a dozen protests and rallies.

Reply #32 Top
And they do this how?


I am convinced you have the ability to answer this question yourself.

The creation of wealth will help the world much more (i.e. more jobs) than a dozen protests and rallies.


That's entirely dependant on the circumstances.

Don't make the assumption that I am saying that wealth/job creation is bad, because I am not. I am saying that some people choose to do other things which also have value.
Reply #33 Top
Maybe that is why they tend to hate people who actually do have power...


While true for some liberals, I think liberals are really against abuses of power. Of course, you have your anarchists on the far far left, but every party's got that loud, obnoxious drunk, doesn't it?

I agree that it does seem that conservatives have the edge on making money, starting businesses, etc. And there's certainly nothing wrong with making money! All to often, though, these business men lack the loyalty to the people that make up their money machines. And I think that's what the left has such a problem with.

The real cognitive dissonance in the Republican party today is that business-related conservatism has little to do with what has become "moral" conservatism. For two examples, I would look at John Ashcroft, a definite "moral conservative" and Karl Rove, a "business conservative." The GOP has managed to juggle the rich business conservatives while at the same time managing to address issues important to the often poor, often Christian "moral conservatives," and despite if you agree with how they do it or not, you have to be impressed.

So what does that leave the left with? Middle class agnostics, liberal Christians, aging hippies and idealistic youngsters. It's hard to get that group in the same room and on the same page. Will Rogers once said, "I belong to a party that doesn't believe in anything -- I'm a Democrat," and I think that sums it up nicely.

Good post, Draginol.
Reply #35 Top
little_whip,

You are ranting again. Don't you ever tire of it?
Reply #36 Top
You rant too, Abe, you just do it in short little haiku rants...

Reply #37 Top
Trickle down economics is obviously the answer to our ailing social problems. I mean who better to dish out money than those who are most attached to money and it's value? right?
Reply #38 Top
You rant too, Abe, you just do it in short little haiku rants...


he he he . . . short little haiku rants? I'm going to have to check out Abe's blog.
Reply #39 Top
"Trickle down economics is obviously the answer to our ailing social problems. I mean who better to dish out money than those who are most attached to money and it's value? right?"


No, the point isn't "dishing out money". That just creates the "projects" society we are well on our way to. If you truly believe in greed, you'll understand that no matter how much money a wealthy person has, they are rarely satisfied with it. They reinvest, in their own businesses, or in others by buying stock. They buy luxury goods whose factories support small town America (And before you start pointing to China I'll let you know that I know of several small towns in the US that survive only because of factories that produce luxury goods).

So, lets say they do just hold onto their money in a more fluid form and refuse to invest. Will they keep it in their mattress? Nope, it goes into the bank, where it is loaned out to people who, in turn, buy goods, houses, start and expand businesses, etc.

If there is one blind spot Liberals seem to have it is the form in which the rich's money is stored. They don't stuff their furniture with it, it is out there. Money from the wealthiest 1% touches your life on a daily basis, even if you don't count philanthropy.

Now, on the other hand, like 40% of the cash in our economy just circulates back and forth in our Government, eaten by red tape and bureaucracy, passing from hand to hand, supposedly paying for this and that. THAT money, benifits very, very few people, and THAT money is the legacy of the Democratic party in the last 40 years.

If you want to take an extra 10k or so away from the rich every year and give it to people in the projects, great. If you think that 10k is better spent by those that didn't earn it, though, you are crazy.
Reply #40 Top
Well, this has certainly stirred up things. I have read through everything and many people have made some really great comments.
One thing I want to point out is that many people here have made comments of what the "other side" thinks by stating things of the extreme side. No one likes extremists, except for the extremists themselves. They are narrow minded, stupid (in some sense), and extremely ideological. Having these people around is not good, especially if they have power and/or influence in the government.
That being said, the less extremists, the better. More extremists will just make things work. The moderates, in both parties, are the ones who have their heads on their shoulders.
The best situation would be more parties (we are the only democratic nation I know of with only 2 "real" parties). That, unfortunately, will never happen. So, both democrats and republicans need to be around to balance each other out.
My main advice to anyone is to try not to be so critical of others and, instead, try to see things from their point of view. Their is always one side, the other, and then the truth. Only by looking at other sides, non-judgementally, will you become smarter and wiser.
Ok, enough ranting. I hope I haven't gone too far off subject or bored you all too much
Reply #41 Top
You still didn't offer a solution to social problems, you simply justified the wealth that you claim makes its way to the rest of us while discounting the liberal agenda. I'd be interested to see practical, pragmatic results of trickle-down economics, in face of its past failures, and not just "theoretically" or "maybe this will happen" Something on a large scale, macro-economical study of such a thing.

I'm not really sure why you decided to involve money being spent within and for government functions and its employees in your arguement. That's going to exist whether you are right or left. The conservatives haven't cut net spending by any notable amount in quite some time.

And if there is one Blind spot in conservatives it's why they are taxed more than the poor. They think their money is being handed over to the poor in some psuedo-Socialist process designed by the other side to work against the rich. Like "...take an extra 10k or so away from the rich every year and give it to people in the projects..." It's a "survival of the fittest" mindset of many conservatives that really strikes at the moral reservations of people. You think we're more than the animals, and yet here it is, the Food Chain in all it's glory, manifested in a new light,
Reply #42 Top
That was in reply to BakerStreet. And I'd like to point out I'm not being extremist, I'm being sarcastic, though that "harsh reality" conservatives seem to deal so well with doesn't shine so well in some cases...like this arguement, huh?
Reply #43 Top
I'm not saying our system is perfect, no system is perfect. I can say, though, that taking money away from people who invest it and giving it to people who haven't earned it and will just send it to people that once again will have it taxed away from them is silly.

You punitively tax the upper class to provide more wealth to the lower class. They take that money to wal-mart and spend it. That money goes back to the upper class, where it is again given to the lower class in the form of the same putnitive taxes. It is a revolving handout.

At what point do you think people will begin further sheltering their money? Do you want the wealthy to reinvest their money, or hedge as much of it as they can overseas? Don't think for a moment that they will just decide to work as hard for less money. They have the ability to move it out of the system to places where it is better rewarded. In terms of state taxation I have seen it happen. Democrat wealth-haters take over an area, and the capital dries up and moves somewhere that respects them.

" You still didn't offer a solution to social problems, you simply justified the wealth that you claim makes its way to the rest of us while discounting the liberal agenda. I'd be interested to see practical, pragmatic results of trickle-down economics, in face of its past failures, and not just "theoretically" or "maybe this will happen" Something on a large scale, macro-economical study of such a thing."


What failures, as opposed to a broken social handout system? What you are doing is blaming free market enterprise for the sins of the very systems you are promoting, and that have failed miserably.

We are insanely comfortable in the US. That comfort has steadily grown. Have you looked at the census statistics of the poor in the US? Our poor would be easily middle class or better in the rest of the world. You are preaching the apocalypse in a nation where

  • Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes. The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.
  • Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.
  • Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.
  • The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)
  • Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.
  • Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.
  • Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.
  • Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.

Do you envision a nationwithout social problems? Do you really think, in the next, say, thousand years that we will have 0% unemployment and no poverty? OF course not. If we do lessen their "suffering", you guys will simply ramp up the definition of "poor" to include the size of their TVs.

Frankly, the people who are really poor, really desperate, have recourse. There will always be people who suffer, but we have a system that allows them help. I have no problem with that. When you start saying that people are somehow owed a middle-class life simply because they exist, and not because they earn it, you are inviting a serious social problem yourself.

The problem is, you guys lump "low income" into the figures as if you envision a time when there will somehow not be a lower 10%. We have reached the point that to improve the situation much we have to simply re-distribute wealth, and that never, ever works. People have the ability to climb to any point in our economy that they choose. People do it all the time. To say that they are somehow owed that, regardless of their efforts, is self destructive.


Reply #44 Top
Draginol, your one-sided exaggerations or "facts" never seem to support your inner belief that your politically eclectic.
Reply #45 Top
You rant too, Abe, you just do it in short little haiku rants...


Do not.

he he he . . . short little haiku rants? I'm going to have to check out Abe's blog.


Nah, there is nothing to see there.

Now, on the other hand, like 40% of the cash in our economy just circulates back and forth in our Government, eaten by red tape and bureaucracy, passing from hand to hand, supposedly paying for this and that. THAT money, benifits very, very few people, and THAT money is the legacy of the Democratic party in the last 40 years.


The money gets eaten? That's just not true. That money goes right back in our economy.

My main advice to anyone is to try not to be so critical of others and, instead, try to see things from their point of view. Their is always one side, the other, and then the truth. Only by looking at other sides, non-judgementally, will you become smarter and wiser.


Yes _Hombre_, you are right, but I am not sure if your words will carry any weight with any of the people who could use it most.

Reply #46 Top
"The money gets eaten? That's just not true. That money goes right back in our economy. "


Actually, it is true. Between the money that is passed between departments, the federal reserve and government investments, and the money that is on its way to, and in the process of leaving the government, something like 40% of every speck of money in the nation is tied up at any given point.

It is like a juggler. if he has 5 balls rotating, he has three of them are in the air at any given time. Sure they eventually come down, but by that time three more have moved into the air. That is money that is basically not benefitting anyone but the government itself. It is like a big leach on the system.

When you consider what even 10% of the cash in the system amounts to, and consider what 10% more cash changing hands in the economy would do, it is a shameful waste.


WAIT...wait...wait... on second thought, isn't that an odd statement coming from you? You don't see a problem with a large amount of money being dammed up by the government, but somehow you don't believe money held by the wealthy goes anywhere?

Do they eat it? No, they spend it and more money comes in, just like the govenrment. Didn't you just defeat your own arguement?

Reply #47 Top
"Liberals are also the ones who push for more help for Africa. A land where the populations are simply far too high to be supported by the land they are on (with some notable exceptions where corrupt government is the cause). Do you send over food aid, artificially masking the underlying problem and creating generations of dependents living in misery? The liberal won't worry about that. They just want to show how much they care. The "cruel" conservative is more likely to look at the big picture. Consistent food aid creates extensive long term damage and can prop up corrupt and brutal regimes."

First, the idea that the population of Africa is too high for the 'land to support' is ridiculous. Israel is basically desert, yet they produce not only enough food for themselves, but enough to be a considerable exporter of agricultural goods. The population density of Israel is 282 people per square kilometer - only Rwanda's population is (slightly) denser. Most African nations are in the 100 and below range, with Kenya, Ethiopia, Benin, Swaziland, and Senegal being around 50, Zimbabwe at 28, Congo at 22, Chad, Guyana, Suriname, Botswana, Namibia, and a few others being 5 or under. There is more than enough land, and it's much more arable than that of Israel.

The 'notable exceptions' aren't exceptions at all. In fact, never in recorded history has famine been caused by anything but political incompetence or outright malice. No natural phenomenon is enough to starve people - the Irish Potato Famine did not lead to starvation because of the potato blight alone, but by the political interference of the British in free trade.

Africans starve not because the land cannot support food, but because they don't grow enough of it. The reason they don't grow enough of it is that they have piss-poor to nonexistent property laws, shoddy rule of law, and incompetent socialst governments. Their economies are stagnant to nonexistent, and a lack of capital coupled with the lack of a demand ('I'm hungry' doesn't count, we're talking people who want to BUY your goods) leads to no agricultural entrepeneurs. With the agricultural protectionism in Europe and the ultra-efficient agriculture of the US and Canada, the threshold for export-oriented agriculture is also much too high.

Africa as a whole needs rule of law and free market capitalism as soon as possible, as widely as possible. We need to make debt forgiveness and other foreign aid wholly dependent on their progress in instituting the framework for self-sufficience and prosperity.

But I feel it is a virtue to feed them regardless. It is a vice not to help them get back on their feet, but regardless of whether we do that or not, it is a virtue to help our fellow man. These are not the lazy welfare bums and 'homeless' of the West, these are people who are born into misery, live in misery, and die in misery, with no chance whatsoever to escape it. If we can feed them, then we should. I don't think this should be paid for by our taxes (like Chirac's ridiculous 'world hunger tax'), but rather by charity and volunteer work. Sometimes, governments can supply disaster relief if the private sector cannot react fast enough.

I find both the 'feeding them is pointless' idea and the 'their starvation is the result of OUR exploitation of the third world' idea to be abhorrent and not based in reality. These are human beings and no realpolitik, utilitarian justification can negate the fact that if we can feed a starving child and choose not to, we're monsters. And the lefitst blame game of the west exploiting these people is ridiculous - they're starving because they don't produce enough things to eat, let alone for us to bother stealing their nonexistent food!

As to American children living in 'poverty', this is ridiculous, especially in contrast to Africa. Western 'poverty' means having a PS1 instead of a PS2 and only one TV. Western 'poverty' means shopping for clothes at Value Village. Western 'poverty' means not affording college tuition and having to save up for dental work to be done. Non-affluence does not a pauper make. A mayonnaise sandwich every now and then does not make one 'poor'. It's hard for me to take leftists seriously if they think living in a heated trailer and having to cut coupons can somehow be described with the same word as Ethiopian children living in a dirt shack eating nothing at all.

Personally, I consider myself somewhere between a libertarian and a conservative. My personal idealistic flight of fancy is a dissolution of the UN, institution of the United Democracies, whose primary goal was the spread of free-market liberal democracies everywhere, and the toppling of tyrants with all-volunteer armies. The existence of North Korea, and other places where megalomaniacs and common bandits drive people to eating INFANTS, on our planet in 2004 is a dark stain on humanity's soul.
Reply #48 Top
Maybe it's because liberals aren't interested in creating wealth. Maybe they are more interested in spending their time making the world a better place to live.


There's nothing wrong with that, but the questions is: Are they doing something that is actually helpful, or are they doing something that seems/feels good but actually has not effect or is harmful.

A good example is people who spend a night sleeping in the streets in a sleeping bag to empathize with people who are homeless. That generates warm fuzzy feelings and publicity, but does it actually help anyone? On the other hand, someone who is volunteeting in a soup kitchen is actually doing something.
Reply #49 Top
It is like a juggler. if he has 5 balls rotating, he has three of them are in the air at any given time. Sure they eventually come down, but by that time three more have moved into the air. That is money that is basically not benefitting anyone but the government itself. It is like a big leach on the system.


Nice simile, but I get the sense that you aren't actually saying anything. Can you give some specifics or point me to a good article on the subject?

WAIT...wait...wait... on second thought, isn't that an odd statement coming from you? You don't see a problem with a large amount of money being dammed up by the government, but somehow you don't believe money held by the wealthy goes anywhere?


No, I have never argued that the money the rich has is eaten/wasted. Never. Not once. If you think I have then I urge you to read my positions more carefully and stop making assumptions.

Didn't you just defeat your own arguement?


Since I have never taken that position, no I didn't. However, you just defeated your own argument.

Reply #50 Top
"Nice simile, but I get the sense that you aren't actually saying anything. "


"Since I have never taken that position, no I didn't. However, you just defeated your own argument."


... ... 0_o... ... Abe, I really wonder about you sometimes...