Why Bush will still lose

You "just" keep on dreaming!

Sure, there are probably some military personel that aren't all that happy with Bush. What you overlook is that there only alternative is JOHN KERRY... wanna talk about the lesser of two evils? Look at Kerry's attitude toward the military and the support for such during his decades as a Senator... I think you'll find big holes in your arguement.

In the end, the only thing that can beat Bush now is Bush himself. An out-of-the-blue, PERTINENT scandal, or a really, really bad showing at the debates might lose him the election. I don't see that happening, simply because Bush is one of the most under-estimated Presidents in recent history. Whatever he does at the debates those on the left are already assuming far, far worse, and those who lampoon him have already sketched such awful caricature that the real thing is going to seem pretty decent.

I think what will win Bush the election is people like you, Sandy. No one takes your kind of smear seriously except people who have no possibility of voting for Bush. You aren't winning anyone over, you are just alienating swing voters and painting an ugly picture of the Left as a whole. You have spent so much time painting Bush to be evil, screaming his supposed and oft-refuted sins from the rooftops, and making him out to be an idiot. You' and others have tried so hard, and done such a good job, that when people now look at Bush the contrast is glowing. Compared to Leftist's portraits, Bush is articulate, informed, and almost unrecognizable.

Good job. People listen to your sermons, expect Gomer Pyle, and then are immensly impressed with Bush comparatively. It's a lesson you'd think you guys would have learned when Clinton defeated Dole. Now you take the same tactics that didn't work for Republicans, and try and use them. Not too bright.

Good job. People listen to your sermons, expect Gomer Pyle, and then are immensly impressed with Bush comparatively. It's a lesson you'd think you guys would have learned when Clinton defeated Dole. Now you take the same tactics that didn't work for Republicans, and try and use them. Not too bright.

HUSH!!! Don't help them.

Why Bush will still lose

Confucius says gay man prefer Dick, get it.

What you overlook is that there only alternative is JOHN KERRY... wanna talk about the lesser of two evils? Look at Kerry's attitude toward the military and the support for such during his decades as a Senator... I think you'll find big holes in your arguement.

Baker makes a fine point.  The majority of people I've spoken to (we're in the AF) have said that they'd rather have 4 more of Bush than vote Kerry in.

Nothing matters until the debates, everything that comes before is just so much fluff.

Sandy, your an idiot...........kerry hates the military. he is just like clinton. 80 percent of our fighting me are for Bush. as for the young, they are inexperienced morons. but even they are voting 45 percent for bush. as for the rising price of oil, only a moron democrat would think that anyone could do anything about it. the free market sets the prices for all commodities. if you liberals would allow drilling in alaska, there would not be a shortage. i think the american people are a lot smarter than you think. BUSH WINS IN A LANDSLIDE!!!

, Marvin Cooley you're a blast! I truly enjoy reading your Limbaughesque rants. If someone disagrees with you they are a moron! If Bush needs to be pro-military, then Kerry must hate the military! If Congress is still debating the value of opening ANWR, it is the liberal's fault! At least you're always the victim right? If you are young, you are an inexperienced moron! !!! But here's food for thought: what if someone is younger than you but smarter and more informed...does that make the older person an even greater moron? Anyways, keep up the writing.

On another note: Something else to think about. Most young people now-a-days only have cell phones and thus are not ever polled. Also, if you look at the data based on likely voters (those who have voted in the past and thus are considered more likely to vote in 2k4) you are missing two key groups: the youth vote and the first time voters who will probably want change. Not that this means too much. I think at the moment Bush has a lead that is probably slightly greater than the margin of error. Now it's up to Kerry to fight back, re-energize his base and work on acing the debates otherwise Bush could seal the deal if the Dem base gets too weary.

Reply #9 By: rugbyshawn - 9/21/2004 9:31:51 AM , Marvin Cooley you're a blast! I truly enjoy reading your Limbaughesque rants. If someone disagrees with you they are a moron! If Bush needs to be pro-military, then Kerry must hate the military!

Just an FYI Kerry DOES hate the military. You doubt that? Go look at what he said when he got back from Vietnam. The he** with what he did or didn't do in country. It's afterwards that count! He also has voted against ALL military appropiation bill. Definetly against the 87 million dollars needed for military "equipment"

Drmiler, when it comes to the simplistic view of the 87million, yes he did vote against it BUT if you took the time to look into the nuances (not easy for a Bushie who sees the world in black and white)....

Kerry voted for the 87 billion dollar bill an amendment that some of the tax cuts would be repealed in order to minimize the amount of deficit that would occur (it's called fiscal responsibility). He then opposed the bill when the amendment was stripped.

As Kerry said in his statement about the vote: "The best way to support our troops and take the target off their backs is with a real strategy to win the peace in Iraq - not by throwing $87 billion at George Bush's failed policies. I am voting 'no' on the Iraq resolution to hold the President accountable and force him finally to develop a real plan that secures the safety of our troops and stabilizes Iraq.”

About the same bill WHICH BUSH THREATENED TO VETO (doesn't that mean Bush hates the military):

“The White House threatened Tuesday to veto its own spending bill for Iraq and Afghanistan if Congress made reconstruction aid a loan, taking its most forceful stand on the issue even as more lawmakers supported a reimbursement by Iraq. After declining to threaten a veto last week before the Senate voted to lend up to $10 billion to Iraq, the White House surprised many people on Capitol Hill with its warning…Last week, without using the word "veto," Mr. Bush called on a series of wavering lawmakers and made it clear that he would not appreciate a vote for a loan. The statement on Tuesday, after eight Republican senators defied him last week and helped form a majority in favor of a $10 billion loan, was the strongest threat to date. "If this provision is not removed, the president's senior advisers would recommend that he veto the bill," Joshua B. Bolten, the White House budget director, wrote in a letter to Congressional leaders.”
[Firestone, New York Times, 10/22/03]

You shouldn't make statements like "Kerry hates the military" unless you delve into the nature of the vote and what the ramifications of the vote are (in this case Kerry wanted the people to fund the military expense with our tax dollars and not add to the deficit). Other military spending bills that Kerry approved but had also been proposed for cuts by Cheney when he was secretary of defense (doesn't that mean they hate the military!!!!!)

For example (because you know I like using sources):
The Kerry Record - B-2 Bomber:
Kerry has supported over $16.7 billion in defense authorizations for the B-2 program. [Total Funding Support from Kerry Votes for Defense Authorization bills 1985-2003]

The Cheney Record: Cheney Proposed Cuts to B-2 Program. According to the Boston Globe, in 1990, "Defense Secretary Richard Cheney announced a cutback… of nearly 45 percent in the administration's B-2 Stealth bomber program, from 132 airplanes to 75..." [Boston Globe, 4/27/90]

The Kerry Record - FA-18 Fighter:
Kerry supported at least $60 billion in defense authorizations for the F/A-18 and F-18 Fighter Jets [Total Funding Support from Kerry Votes for Defense Authorization bills 1985-2003]

The Cheney F-18 Record: Cutbacks Hit Industry Hard
Workers and the industry were hit hard by Cheney's decision for "major cuts" in the F/A-18 program and upgrades to the F-18 in the late 1980s [Flight International, 6/27/90; Los Angeles Times, 12/17/89; Aerospace Daily, 5/26/89; Aviation Week and Space Technology, 5/1/89]

The Kerry Record - F-16 Fighter Jets:
Kerry supported at least $25 billion in defense authorizations for the F-16. [Total Funding Support from Kerry Votes for Defense Authorization bills 1985-2003]

The Cheney Record: Cheney Proposed Cutting F-16 Aircraft.
In testimony before the House Armed Services Committee, Cheney said, "If you're going to have a smaller air force, you don't need as many F-16s... The F-16D we basically continue to buy and close it out because we're not going to have as big a force structure and we won't need as many F-16s." According to the Boston Globe, Bush's 1991 defense budget "kill[ed] 81 programs for potential savings of $ 11.9 billion…Major weapons killed include[d]... the Air Force's F-16 airplane." [Cheney testimony, House Armed Services Committee, 2/7/91; Boston Globe, 2/5/91]

He also has voted against ALL military appropiation bill. Definetly against the 87 million dollars needed for military "equipment"

For the record (from Johnkerry.com):
Kerry Has Supported More than $4.4 Trillion in Defense Spending Including Voting for 16 of the Last 19 Defense Authorization Bills. He Voted for the "Largest Increase in Defense Spending Since the Early 1980's."

So, I guess that means your post is a lie! I hate to call people out but saying things like Kerry hates the military is just not true and BTW I don't think Cheney and Bush hate the military, I just wanted to prove to you that both sides can be shown to "hate the military" by using their record against them.

So, I guess that means your post is a lie! I hate to call people out but saying things like Kerry hates the military is just not true and BTW I don't think Cheney and Bush hate the military, I just wanted to prove to you that both sides can be shown to "hate the military" by using their record against them.

"Before" you say my post is a lie..... Maybe you should do a "little" more checking.

Defense & Nat'l Security Votes to Cut Defense Spending by 2% (S. Con. Res. 29, CQ Vote #49, Apr 25, 1991) Votes to Slash Over $3 Billion from Defense (H.R. 2707, CQ Vote #182, Sep 10, 1991) Votes to Cut $6 Billion from Defense (S. Con. Res. 106, CQ Vote #73, Apr 9, 1992) Votes Against Military Pay Raise (S. Con. Res. 18, CQ Vote #73, Mar 24, 1993) Kerry Introduces Plan To Cut Numerous Defense Programs: Cut the number of Navy submarines and their crews Reduce the number of light infantry units in the Army down to one Reduce tactical fighter wings in the Air Force Terminate the Navy’s coastal mine-hunting ship program Force the retirement of no less than 60,000 members of the Armed Forces in one year. (S.1163, Introduced Jun 24, 1993) Introduced an amendment to SLASH defense spending by 4 billion dollars and Intelligence spending by about 1 billion. Senator Inouye, Very Liberal (D) from Hawaii had the following comments: Amendment 1452, 1994, Senate Floor The amendment offered by Senator Kerry would reduce the 1994 appropriations for national defense by about $4 billion. I believe the Members of this body should recall that Congress has already reduced DOD's budget in 1994 by more than $18 billion. Moreover, in each and every year of the past 10 years, Congress has cut the funds provided for defense. We have already cut defense spending drastically. ... Now if I may comment on another section that reduces funding for intelligence programs, and this amendment would reduce such funding by about $1 billion. Madam President, the intelligence budget has already been cut by almost 18 percent over the past 2 years. An additional reduction of $1 billion would severely hamper the intelligence community's ability to provide decisionmakers and policymakers with information on matters of vital concern to this country. These issues include nuclear proliferation by North Korea--this has been on the front pages for the past 3 or 4 months--peacekeeping efforts in Bosnia and Somalia, as well as terrorist threats against American citizens and property. ... At a time like this, is it prudent to reduce funds for the very intelligence programs which we need to identify these targets? This amendment would do that. It would blind our pilots. Is this the time to cut the satellite programs that give our forces warning of attacks? I hope that we will keep this in mind... If we do and this amendment passes, then we are putting blindfolds over our pilots' eyes. ... Voted NO on the Defend America Act of 1996. This bill stated that it would be U.S. policy to deploy by the end of 2003 a national missile defense system that (1) is capable of providing a highly effective defense of U.S. territory against limited, unauthorized or accidental ballistic missile attack; (2) will be augmented over time to provide a layered defense against larger and more sophisticated ballistic missile threats; and (3) does not feature an offensive-only form of deterrence. Newsmax Introduces a bill to SLASH Department of Defense Funding by 6.5 Billion (S. 1580, Introduced Feb 29, 1996) (No one was willing to co-sponsor this bill!) Voted YES to freeze defense spending for 7 Years, slashing over $34 Billion from defense. (S. Con. Res. 13, CQ Vote #181, May 24, 1995) Voted NO on Strengthening of the trade embargo against Cuba. Conference Report on H.R. 927; Bill H.R. 927 ; vote number 1996-22 on Mar 5, 1996 Voted NO on considering deploying National Missile Defense, and amending ABM Treaty. Bill S 1635 ; vote number 1996-157 on Jun 4, 1996 Voted YES on banning chemical weapons. Resolution of ratification of the Chemical (Comprehensive) Weapons (Convention) Ban; Bill S. Res. 75 ; vote number 1997-51 on Apr 24, 1997 In 1997, the conservative Center for Security Policy awarded Kerry a score of 0 out of a possible 100 on 14 key defense votes – including funding for space-based laser programs. Newsmax Voted YES on limiting the President's power to impose economic sanctions. Motion to table the Lugar Amdt #3156.; Bill S. 2159 ; vote number 1998-201 on Jul 15, 1998 Voted NO on deploying missile defense as soon as possible. Bill S 1873 ; vote number 1998-262 on Sep 9, 1998 Voted YES on allowing another round of military base closures. Bill S.1059 ; vote number 1999-147 on May 26, 1999 Voted NO on cap foreign aid at only $12.7 billion. H.R. 2606 Conference Report; Bill H.R. 2606 ; vote number 1999-312 on Oct 6, 1999 Voted YES on adopting the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty. Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty; Bill Treaty Document #105-28 ; vote number 1999-325 on Oct 13, 1999 B-2 Stealth Bomber: Repeatedly Votes to Cut or Eliminate B-2 Stealth Bomber (H.R. 3072, CQ Vote #203, 9/26/89) (H.R. 3072, CQ Vote #310, 11/18/89) (S. 2884, CQ Vote #208, 8/2/90) (S. 2884, CQ Vote #209, 8/2/90) (S. 1507, CQ Vote #174, 8/1/91) (H.R. 2521, CQ Vote #206, 9/25/91) (S. 2403, CQ Vote #85, 5/6/92) (S. 3114, CQ Vote #216,9/18/92) (S. 2182, CQ Vote #179, 7/1/94) Missile Defense: Repeatedly Votes to Cut or Eliminate Missile Defense (S. 1507, CQ Vote #168, 7/31/91) (S. 1507, CQ Vote #171, 8/1/91) (S. 1507, CQ Vote #172, 8/1/91) (S. 1507, CQ Vote #173, 8/1/91) (H.R. 2521, CQ Vote #207, 9/25/91) (S. 2403, CQ Vote #85, 5/6/92) (S. 3114, CQ Vote #182, 8/7/92) (S. 3114, CQ Vote #214, 9/17/92) (S. 3114, CQ Vote #215, 9/17/92) (S. 1298, CQ Vote #251, 10/9/93) (S. Con. Res. 63, CQ Vote #64, 3/22/94) (S. 1026, CQ Vote #354, 8/3/95) (S. 1087, CQ Vote #384, 8/10/95) (S. 1745, CQ Vote #160, 6/19/96) (S. 1873, CQ Vote #131:, 5/13/98) (S. 1873, CQ Vote #262, 9/9/98) (S 1635, CQ Vote #157, 6/4/96) (S. 2549, CQ Vote #178, 7/13/00)

Here's the link: Link

that's very nice but you missed the point of my post drmiler....here I'll even quote it for you...

I just wanted to prove to you that both sides can be shown to "hate the military" by using their record against them.

Meaning, in case the article was too nuanced....that you can find selected votes for both Kerry and Cheney (Bush didn't have a national voting record as a governor) that show they have voted against defense appropriation bills. But unless you delve into the reasons for the votes (was there pork funding? unfair provisions? obsolete programs? added amendments?) you can't really say one HATES THE MILITARY!

My post shows different ones that Kerry voted for, yours shows ones that Kerry voted against. I would say since you said

He also has voted against ALL military appropiation bill.

that you lied, he has not voted against ALL bills as my previous post shows....Kerry has voted for some and against some just as Cheney was against some and for some...just as a reminder....

He also has voted against ALL military appropiation bill.

For the record (from Johnkerry.com): Kerry Has Supported More than $4.4 Trillion in Defense Spending Including Voting for 16 of the Last 19 Defense Authorization Bills. He Voted for the "Largest Increase in Defense Spending Since the Early 1980's."

The difference is that nobody has said Cheney hates the military...sorry to debunk again....

Reply #13 By: rugbyshawn - 9/21/2004 11:13:12 AM that's very nice but you missed the point of my post drmiler....here I'll even quote it for you... I just wanted to prove to you that both sides can be shown to "hate the military" by using their record against them. Meaning, in case the article was too nuanced....that you can find selected votes for both Kerry and Cheney (Bush didn't have a national voting record as a governor) that show they have voted against defense appropriation bills. But unless you delve into the reasons for the votes (was there pork funding? unfair provisions? obsolete programs? added amendments?) you can't really say one HATES THE MILITARY! My post shows different ones that Kerry voted for, yours shows ones that Kerry voted against. I would say since you said He also has voted against ALL military appropiation bill. that you lied, he has not voted against ALL bills as my previous post shows....Kerry has voted for some and against some just as Cheney was against some and for some...just as a reminder....

Before you say he likes the military,just maybe you should read Kerry's book. Here's the link. Read it and we'll talk again.

Link

BUSH WINS IN A LANDSLIDE!!!

You show your vulnerability for letting wishful thinking cloud critical thinking. Unless things change significantly, nobody is going to win this election by a landslide (with the possible exception of Barak Obama in the Illinois senatorial race). Recent rumblings in congress show that the GOP is hardly solid in its support of President Bush. And even if he does maintain his slim lead and win in November, he and the GOP would be foolish to ignore the divide in the nation. In fact, I would go so far as to argue that hubris in claims that a candidate will win by a landslide in this election will only push more undecided voters away from that candidate. So...thanks, Mr. Cooley, for doing your part for the Kerry campaign.

You might be correct in what you say however, one "no" vote speaks "more" loudly than the others to his feelings about the military. And if you look, his "no's" FAR outweigh his "yes" votes.

Votes Against Military Pay Raise (S. Con. Res. 18, CQ Vote #73, Mar 24, 1993)

Rugbyshawn

Cheney is not running for President. That’s the same red herring that is being thrown out about Chaney’s daughter and gay marriages.

Last week in Las Vegas Kerry spoke to the National Guard. When he arrived he got a golf clap. During a normal speech there are breaks in between comments so the crowd could clap. After the first two breaks (that received cricket sounds), he rushed threw the rest of the speech without stopping. Kerry may not hate the military, but the military does not like him.

When Bush addressed the same conference two days earlier he got a standing ovation.

Last week Kerry stated about an emergency call up of Reserve and Guard troops after the November. Why did he wait until the day after the National Guard speech to release it? Because the Guards men would easily have shot that down. This secret call up is the normal end of year rotation. Even that info is not meant for the common public. Let’s just tell our enemies that we are sending these guys and what the schedule is. If I made statements like that to reporters I would be brought up on charges. But I guess it ok for a Senator to do it though.

As for young people, I have noticed a sharp increase of collage students with Bush 04 bumper stickers on their cars lately at the local university. I would have to say close to a 50/50 Bush to Kerry stickers.

That’s My Two Cents

For Drmiler, 1) I didn't write that Kerry likes the military (since personally I do not know), I wrote that both Cheney and Kerry's records can be used to show that they hate the military based on your criteria and cherry picking votes. However, you can't refute (and you haven't yet) that you lied in your post since you said Kerry has voted against ALL defense appropriation bills which I then, using news sources, proved wrong. You can cherry-pick his votes all you want but you can't change the truth.

To Lee 2) Bush as governor (and I already wrote this but selective memory is a wonderful thing right?) would not have VOTED ON ANY FEDERAL DEFENSE BILLS! Cheney as a rep from WY and as Secretary of Defense has a record however. Cheney coincidentally is the VP candidate for Bush, thus his position on these issues is an issue since he is one heartbeat from the presidency (as Bush and Cheney both like to point out as a strength compared to Edwards).

Also Lee, I never wrote that the armed forces like Kerry. According to the last poll I saw on this issue, Bush has the lead there. So please drmiler and lee don't make up lines for me that I didn't say. I know it's too easy to refute you drmiler but it's sad that you have to make up lines to refute me.

So if you want to refute me, show me that Cheney didn't request cuts in those programs. Or prove that one of the sources lied. Hell, I'm still waiting for the Clinton quote not taken out of context that you "have". But don't make up assertions for me and then refute them. It doesn't prove any point other than you can refute something that you came up with.....

Reply #18 By: rugbyshawn - 9/21/2004 1:06:30 PM For Drmiler, 1) I didn't write that Kerry likes the military (since personally I do not know), I wrote that both Cheney and Kerry's records can be used to show that they hate the military based on your criteria and cherry picking votes. However, you can't refute (and you haven't yet) that you lied in your post since you said Kerry has voted against ALL defense appropriation bills which I then, using news sources, proved wrong. You can cherry-pick his votes all you want but you can't change the truth

For the record (this twice and the last time) you are correct. But you have to admit he has voted "against" waaaaaaay more than he has voted for

Also Lee, I never wrote that the armed forces like Kerry.

I never said you did. I was just making a point that the military will not vote for him no matter what his voting record is. IMO mainly because of what he did after he left Vietnam.

I should have put a divide between my first sentence and the rest; because it has more to do with the original post about this mysteries disgruntled vote that people thing will come from the military for Kerry.

To Lee 2) Bush as governor (and I already wrote this but selective memory is a wonderful thing right?) would not have VOTED ON ANY FEDERAL DEFENSE BILLS! Cheney as a rep from WY and as Secretary of Defense has a record however. Cheney coincidentally is the VP candidate for Bush, thus his position on these issues is an issue since he is one heartbeat from the presidency (as Bush and Cheney both like to point out as a strength compared to Edwards).

I know he was Governor, and as Governor he supported the Texas Guard on almost every bill within the State. I did not ignore the fact that you pointed this out earlier.

What I want to point out again is that the VP's opinion does not reflect the President's stance. The president is what matters. There are many occasions that the President doesn’t agree with the VP. What you’re doing is making a full attack on Bush's platform using Chaney's vote.

Yes, I am fully aware that he is the next guy in line after a bullet or heart attack. Past events like Lincoln, Kennedy and Roosevelt are perfect examples. But Roosevelt didn't even know who his running mate was in his last re-election and didn't care. I am surprised that Kennedy and Johnson even could understand each other. (With their ascents)

That's My Two Cents

He has voted against more programs than voted for. But you have to look at the context for why he voted against certain bills. For example, since the fight against terrorism has begun he has voted more consistently for defense bill appropriations. As stated above:

Kerry Has Supported More than $4.4 Trillion in Defense Spending Including Voting for 16 of the Last 19 Defense Authorization Bills. He Voted for the "Largest Increase in Defense Spending Since the Early 1980's."

He voted against a lot of the bills in the early 90s but many Republicans agreed with him. See this article to see how George HW Bush, Cheney, Powell etc agreed.

AN ANALYSIS OF KERRYS DEFENSE VOTESLink

I think this will give you a deeper understanding of why Kerry voted against certain weapons systems including ones that HW Bush cancelled himself. I certainly recommend it to anyone who wants to learn more about the candidate.

A note on my reasoning and or thoughts on the campaign
I don't see the world as black and white or evil versus good. I try to see what each side believes in, why they believe it, and how they go about pursuing what they believe in. Then I decide which candidate more fits into my beliefs. Sometimes it's a Republican (like Warner or McCain), more often it's a Democrat or Green. One of my main wishes is that this campaign was less about edited sound bytes and more about the issues (economy, defense, foreign relations, funding of programs and debt). I still remember watching McCain in Virginia Beach give a wonderful speech that the news programs broke down into short sound bytes (paraphrased it was that we need to get rid of the politics of hate espoused by Falwell and Robertson) that distorted his whole message by only giving the most sensationalistic 10 seconds and not informing people of his overall message. Soon thereafter he was out of the race. You see it everyday on all of the cable news programs. I also am not a fan of news programs that are person on the left yells at person on the right while the moderator sits back. Or anchor on the right/left berates guest on left/right while allowing guest on right/left to yell over the other guest. It has no news value. A debate is one (very good) thing, a petty yell fest of half-truths from both sides is painful.

Well it looks like Senator-in-absentia Kerry has the answer to all of this defense bickering. We'll just turn it all over to the UN. Then all of this will be moot.

You know what our best defense policy should be? Finding alter. to middle eastern oil.

You know what the best kind of apples are? The orange ones!

Where does US oil come from? Link