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Draginol
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CBS Hoaxed?

Anti-Bush national guard story may have been based on false documents

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September 9, 2004 10:39:38 PM from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

(comparison in print out using MS Word and the alleged document from 1973)

CBS's 60 Minutes may have fallen for a hoax yesterday. After airing documents that claimed to show that pressure was put on officers to "sugar coat" Bush's national guard service, blog sites such as Little Green Footballs and this one seem to provide compelling evidence that this was a hoax.

Story developing.

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Draginol
historyishere
Join Date 06/2004
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Reply #1 September 9, 2004 11:32:56 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Looks pretty damning, but I wouldn't be surprised if the typeface Plantin was involved, not Times New Roman... I am not wholly convinced... 90% convinced yes... but there are inconsistencies which can't be denied with the overlay...

Like look at the top of the y's... they are serifed in the Times New Roman reproduction, the noticeable lack of the curl at the bottom of the t's and look at the 1 in 187(not to mention the shifting superscript).... those aren't the same either. And the don't in the first paragraph is a tale in and of itself.
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historyishere
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Reply #2 September 9, 2004 11:34:34 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Plantin:

http://www.fonts.com/findfonts/detail.asp?pid=202197
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Daiwa
Join Date 07/2001
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Reply #3 September 9, 2004 11:49:23 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
There were proportional font typewriters in 1973 (good ole' IBM Selectric), but none that typed superscripts, no matter what the font. No question whatsoever - it's a fraud. It's been cleverly made to look "old" but it ain't. Suggests whoever at CBS "vetted" that document is younger than about 45 or so, old enough, anyway, to not remember what typewriters of the day were like and to not realize how obvious the fraud is.

Cheers,
Daiwa
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Draginol
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Reply #4 September 9, 2004 11:53:33 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

That's really not the only damning thing, the spacing is really suspect too. The odds of a type writer having the exact same spacing as that seems very unlikely. Heck, what about the margins? These are the default MS Word margins we're talking about.

The only difference I see is due to photocopying over and over to "age" it.

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Gideon MacLeish
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Reply #5 September 9, 2004 11:57:35 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
It is interesting that such a poor document forgery got through the editors. I guess they'll go for every little bit of "evidence" they can get.

By the way, I'm only 34, and I don't think it would have gotten past me. I typed on a manual typewriter until I was 14, so I know what something that comes off of a typewriter looks like, and I also know that superscript didn't come off electric typewriters of that era, either.
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Reply #6 September 10, 2004 12:01:50 AM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
This could be fake evidence planetd by Clintons in order to intially help Kerry but backfire on him so that he is not elected so Hillary can run in 2008, I know it's just a conspiracy theory, but everybody seems to be running around with one these days.
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Daiwa
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Reply #7 September 10, 2004 12:12:45 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Silly me - meant to say "young enough" - sheesh.

Cheers,
Daiwa
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Draginol
Daiwa
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Reply #8 September 10, 2004 12:17:22 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
This could be fake evidence planetd by Clintons in order to intially help Kerry but backfire on him so that he is not elected so Hillary can run in 2008, I know it's just a conspiracy theory, but everybody seems to be running around with one these days.


An idea even Rush could embrace! I trust it's "quite" tongue in cheek, but you know, even before Bill got sick, hadn't seen much of Hill for awhile, had we? Last I can recall was the Newsweek article about her fighting "tooth and nail" to get Kerry elected. Did she speak at the DNC? (He says as he reveals he didn't even watch it).

Cheers,
Daiwa
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Daiwa
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Reply #9 September 10, 2004 12:19:13 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Drag -

It is odd that whoever did this made the forgery so obvious and then managed to sell CBS on it. Makes you wonder.

Cheers,
Daiwa
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Reply #10 September 10, 2004 12:37:11 AM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
The only difference I see is due to photocopying over and over to "age" it.


Or just photocopying it once with the bad copiers that some of the military (or an office) has NOW.
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Reply #11 September 10, 2004 2:05:52 AM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
Even if you could not prove that this is fake from the type, think of how 60 minutes got it.

It is said to be from the commander's private files with the rest of the documents received. But the family says they have never seen them and that thier father never kept files like this. The admin Sergeant that worked for him at the time said he never kept records like these and after 17 years of knowing the guy, can not believe he would write anything of this nature. The Unit also says that no records like these came from them.

What ever Editor let them run with this story should be fired.
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Reply #12 September 10, 2004 2:08:48 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Forgery? Or evidence that the military has time traveling capabilities?
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Reply #13 September 10, 2004 7:43:25 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Forgery? Or evidence that the military has time traveling capabilities?
Hah! You almost made coffee squirt out my nose with that one!!
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Reply #14 September 10, 2004 8:34:34 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Draginol:

If it turns out not to be a forgery, does that mean you will vote for Kerry? No. So, what is the importance of the document in either case? Isn't this much ado about nothing?
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Reply #15 September 10, 2004 8:52:11 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Or just photocopying it once with the bad copiers that some of the military (or an office) has NOW.

I was just thinking pretty much the same thing.  Or, put it on a dusty scanner and scan it at a low DPI.  Or, send it through a well used fax machine.

You think that they could have at least dug out an old typewriter for it.

Forgery? Or evidence that the military has time traveling capabilities?

hmmm....didn't consider that angle....

 

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Gideon MacLeish
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Reply #16 September 10, 2004 9:02:56 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Forgery? Or evidence that the military has time traveling capabilities?


Call Art Bell...STAT!
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Daiwa
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Reply #17 September 10, 2004 9:22:42 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
If it turns out not to be a forgery, does that mean you will vote for Kerry? No. So, what is the importance of the document in either case? Isn't this much ado about nothing?


The importance of the document, CrispE, is that Senator Tom Harkin, among others, came out blasting President Bush yesterday based on this and the related CBS trove of "suddenly-found" documents, none of which can be taken seriously now, once again charging publicly that the President "lied to the American people." And it won't turn out to not be a forgery.

And I guess, since we now know that Kerry's claim to be in Cambodia for Christmas 1968 is false, you're voting for Bush?

What ever Editor let them run with this story should be fired.


Never happen. I'm sure they'll say "Well, we looked at all the evidence and determined to the best of our ability that it was legitimate." To paraphrase someone, that's fine for a seventh-grader but not for an adult.

Cheers,
Daiwa
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Lee1776
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Reply #18 September 10, 2004 9:44:14 AM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
Never happen. I'm sure they'll say "Well, we looked at all the evidence and determined to the best of our ability that it was legitimate." To paraphrase someone, that's fine for a seventh-grader but not for an adult.


Ya, I guess sence Rumsfeld was not fired for the prison in Iraq, that it is OK for them not to fire the Editor.
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Lee1776
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Reply #19 September 10, 2004 11:13:36 AM
from PoliticalMachine ForumsPoliticalMachine Forums
LAST NEWS

Democrates claim the forged documents was a Republican set up.

So CBS had nothing to do with it's content, because they got the info from someone else.
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Reply #20 September 10, 2004 11:18:49 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Daiwa:

I am not sure how Tom Harken's incompetence (or CBS's for that matter) taints the Kerry campaign. I am on the record for both candidates as saying 30 years ago is not a relevant issue to this election. Mr. Bush did what he did (and records leak out periodically which is debateable but not substantial to his candidacy) and Mr. Kerry did what he did (also not the issue when considering the candidate (IMHO).

This campaign always seems to come down to Terrorism and Iraq and the Economy. But underneath the real issues (and both of those are) there is this subterranean "who can we tarnish with what happened 30 years ago" politicking going on. It's not healthy, leads to division and ultimately to another campaign where the real issues aren't discussed and then it's "who's the prettiest candidate" again.

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Reply #21 September 10, 2004 11:19:13 AM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

CrispE: No, what it will demonstrate is that there really is a left wing bias to the media.  I don't recall the Swift Boat vets getting air time on 60 minutes and while some of their claims seem to be pushing the envelope, at least they didn't outright fabricate their evidence.

CBS is to blatantly pro-Kerry that this incident I think will forever remind people that the "mainstream" media is carrying's the Democrats' water for them.

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Reply #22 September 10, 2004 12:27:47 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
I kind of agree with Drag...the damage done is most severe to CBS and by association the rest of the mainstream media. I don't think it matters too much though because the only people who care are either the people who don't trust the MM anyway or will scoff at this. I doubt many converts will be made.

But what it does do is really put a crimp in the "if you are going to cast aspersions on my Vietnam experience I will talk about you being AWOL" strategy. They can still do it but it is a landmine waiting to be stepped on. All they have to do is take footage of some Democrat saying AWOL (could be Harkin doesn't have to be Kerry), link it to some voice over talking about forged documents, and then say something pithy like “Is this the kind of people you want in Washington.” In fact they will probably do it anyway.

You may not think the campaign should be about 30 years ago but for some reason it is. This looks to me like serious damage to the Kerry campaign and I am trying to look at it strictly from an dispassionate observer (although I am not). Even if I am wrong I certainly don't think that Kerry's campaign manager, whoever it is for the moment, woke up yesterday with this result in mind. At the very least, it is going to be several days if not weeks worth of new stories not about John Kerry but the CBS debacle.
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Reply #23 September 10, 2004 12:47:13 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums

Democrates claim the forged documents was a Republican set up

Gee..like that isn't predictable.

CrispE: No, what it will demonstrate is that there really is a left wing bias to the media. I don't recall the Swift Boat vets getting air time on 60 minutes and while some of their claims seem to be pushing the envelope, at least they didn't outright fabricate their evidence.

Very, very true. 

 

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Reply #24 September 10, 2004 12:56:12 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Draginol:

Ok, so here is the question:

If the documents were authentic (and I can't tell because I used to type on a selectric that I did lots of "tricks" with like superscripts by releasing and repositioning the paper) are you saying CBS (or the media in general) should not have run the story?

If you say yes, then you are confusing bias with incompetence.

If you say no, then you are saying they should not report what they believe is legitimate news.
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Reply #25 September 10, 2004 1:01:14 PM
from JoeUser ForumsJoeUser Forums
Gee..like that isn't predictable.

It will be a multi-pronged blistering attack consisting of some or all of:
Karl Rove set us up
CBS made the mistake not us
The documents might be fake but when still KNOW that Bush was AWOL
This proves that partisan politics, like the Republicans engage in, are not serving the greater good
We have been trying to campaign on the issues and the Republicans keep bringing up things that happened 30 years ago
and others

For every season, spin, spin, spin, there is a reason, spin, spin, spin.

Probably work to some degree too...but they are still treading water and land just keeps getting further away.
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