Head Scarves Banned In Paris, Some Protest, What is your Position?

from PolMach Forums
We've all heard of France's (poor) decision to ban head scarves in schools. This policy is a slap in the face to all who believe in a free society. Forget freedom fries, this is something much more important, I can't see any American (or even Frenchie) supporting this poorly devised policy that practically invites terrorism and protest. Oddly enough, there has been little protest beside the action these one hundred young women have offered. What does the JoeUser community think about this?

The link to the yahoo news article is here: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=14&u=/ap/20040908/ap_on_re_eu/france_head_scarves
politics
16,935 views 48 replies
Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #3 from PolMach Forums Top
A student wearing something that covers your face in class seems like a distraction to me. Looking at facial gestures is a basic and important part of human communication.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
I commend these young women for standing up for their human rights. They are showing a conviction that has become largely absent in many people, and they are doing so in a way that brings honor to their faith, rather than shame.
Reply #5 from PolMach Forums Top
Hmm...good point, oligarchy.

And well said, as usual Gideon.

I can't believe the French would have passed something like this, I pray for an appeal or a repeal.
Reply #6 from PolMach Forums Top
Yeah I agree with Gideon here.

I should also be able to wear black robes with Death is my Shepard, with Skulls, etc. on it as well as be able to wear t-shirts with 'thought provoking' imagery based on the Grim Reaper, hey it's a part of my religion to accept death and look at death in a different way than the average joe / jane, so why can't I wear a robe that covers my face, or t-shirts with "thought provoking" imagery inspired by the Grim Reaper in College, hmmm, well I probably can, the robe part, but right now it's too hot, but what about the t-shirt part, and what if someone who follows down the same ill-begotten road that I travel down wants to wear "thought provoking" t-shirts inspired by the Grim Reaper, I think all faiths should be accepted and allowed to dress how they want to and befitting their religios beliefs. All for Nudism, excuse me 'skyclad'.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
shozan,

within appropriate boundaries, yes. The attire you described is certainly appropriate, tshirts emblazoned with certain selections from rotten.com would not be (although, as a Christian, I do question the appropriateness of certain depictions of Christ on a cross, but I digress). There should be very few limitations placed on religiously expressive attire (and while you're at it, whattya got against nudists? Well, the FEMALE nudists, anyway!)
Reply #8 from PolMach Forums Top
Nothing I am all for those nud...er mean 'sky clad' female pagans and 'sky clad' non-pagan females, well to put it frankly 'sky clad' females in general I am so for there rights to be nu...'sky clad'.


As for 'thought provoking' imagery, yes I do believe pictures from rotten.com or a Faces of Death Video would be wrong, but not if the body was on a coroner's table (in a tasteful pre-autopsy way), with a label 'Just a Day at the Office for the Country Coroner'.

Repeal that headscarf thing France you are just going to segregate your Islamic population, making it harder for you on Foreign affairs.

Last thing to comment on is: Support your local gravedigger's union!!!
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
The french claim that this is to protect the seperation of religion and state. It defies the purpose of speration of religion and state. The point was to allow the free expression or religion without governmental oppression. I mean, if a relgion does say for example tell people they must go around naked, I can see this as an exception, but a rule that specifically disallows religious things is ridiculous. Even a no hats rule shouldn't apply to headscarves, however for example a private school could ban such a thing. The only time a headscarf could be banned is if the headscarf itself broke with the dresscode of the school (I know in my community we had a recent discussion and I think the board decided it should be that all clothing must not encourage illegal activity). Thats just my thoughts.
Reply #11 from PolMach Forums Top
I agree with MommaErn.

The French are trying to protect their culture. In their mind; why should we give up our culture for someone selves, Because ours is perfect. Wee, Wee. They are banning headscarves just as they banned using English words in government when talking about computers. The French words made up for things like megabyte, disk drive, and others are the only words that can be used. It is a little silly when you think that most school children in France don't know the French words themselves.

I do agree that they should not be able to cover their face, just as I believe that here in the US they should not be able to cover their face in Driver's license.

My Two Cents
Reply #12 from PolMach Forums Top
I do agree that they should not be able to cover their face, just as I believe that here in the US they should not be able to cover their face in Driver's license.


Yeah I am with you there, if they cover there face up in a driver's license how do you tell them apart, look carefully at the eye slits?
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
What about the growing trend in this country toward wearing uniforms? And schools here have the right to dress codes that distract classroom learning and instruction. In France, other faiths, too, must abide by this ruling--no conspicuous religious artifacts. 
Reply #14 from PolMach Forums Top
The French can give whatever reason under the sun they want for this action, but religion is a part of culture (any culture) and a soveriegn choice of the individual. We aren't cogs in a machine, and some of us believe in souls, the government has no right to infringe upon this personal matter.

As for the uniform matter, uniforms in schools often are found only in private schools such as Catholic or "military schools". There is a choice still given to the individual : wear what you like or attend a school that doesn't allow you to chose. Personally, if I ever have the unfortunate luck of having a daughter, I know where she's going (with today's trends being what they are) . Seriously, most public schools have some type of dress code that makes it so people can't wear whatever they want, but that mandate doesn't come from some hard to reach place like the federal government, it comes from local schoolboards. I never really had a problem with the French on anything until this....
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top

Reply #14 By: Deference - 9/12/2004 3:52:25 PM
The French can give whatever reason under the sun they want for this action, but religion is a part of culture (any culture) and a soveriegn choice of the individual. We aren't cogs in a machine, and some of us believe in souls, the government has no right to infringe upon this personal matter.

As for the uniform matter, uniforms in schools often are found only in private schools such as Catholic or "military schools". There is a choice still given to the individual : wear what you like or attend a school that doesn't allow you to chose. Personally, if I ever have the unfortunate luck of having a daughter, I know where she's going (with today's trends being what they are) . Seriously, most public schools have some type of dress code that makes it so people can't wear whatever they want, but that mandate doesn't come from some hard to reach place like the federal government, it comes from local schoolboards. I never really had a problem with the French on anything until this....


You are correct to a point. In America what you said would be 100% true. "But" it ain't America, it's France.
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
Head Scarves Banned In Paris, Some Protest, What is your Position?

By: Deference
Posted: Wednesday, September 08, 2004
Message Board: Politics
We've all heard of France's (poor) decision to ban head scarves in schools. This policy is a slap in the face to all who believe in a free society. Forget freedom fries, this is something much more important, I can't see any American (or even Frenchie) supporting this poorly devised policy that practically invites terrorism and protest. Oddly enough, there has been little protest beside the action these one hundred young women have offered. What does the JoeUser community think about this?


Personally I think it "sucks"! But then again it ain't America and they don't have the same freedoms that you and I enjoy!
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
I find foreigners reaction to the french ban to be hilarious. All this talk of freedom and right to dress how they want. What about the right to rule themselves as they want? Lets look at the facts

- The French as a nation decided on a constituion which keeps state schools secular.
- The French as a nation decided to reinforce this constitution with a law banning overt religious attire. Large majority in favour of this.

Now what is wrong with the French stopping over religious symbolism in state schools. Small crosses can still be worn, as can bandanas for muslims (approved by the muslim community as acceptable by the way). Full religious attrire is perfectly acceptable in all other locations or in private schools. France is a democracy and this is the decision they have made. It has already been vetted by the European courts of human rights to ensure that it is not discriminatory and been passed. Who here honestly believes they have a right to tell the French how to live?

No this is just another excuse to French bash.

Imagine how upset Americans would get if a Frenchman tried to tell them that they couldn't own guns. That they didn't have the right to make that choice because others disapprove.

Paul.
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
Personally, I say "bravo" to the French parliament for defending their noble secualrist ideals.

I only wish religion had been kept out of schools when I was a child.
Reply #19 from PolMach Forums Top
Good post Solitair, I agree.

I may not like the French, but this will not be one of the reasons for me.

My Two Cents
Reply #20 from PolMach Forums Top
You are correct to a point. In America what you said would be 100% true. "But" it ain't America, it's France.

True, I failed to make that distinction in post #14 between the U.S. local schoolboards and whatever system they have set up in France. The fact that both claim to be part of the "free world" however, is important, when, in many ways neither truly are, the French are just acting out in a different yet equally poor manner.

Personally, I say "bravo" to the French parliament for defending their noble secualrist ideals.

I don't have too much of a problem with the whole "secular society" bit, it's when it wages war on the non-secular it should supposedly co-exist with that I then have a problem.
Reply #21 from PolMach Forums Top
Now what is wrong with the French stopping over religious symbolism in state schools. Small crosses can still be worn, as can bandanas for muslims (approved by the muslim community as acceptable by the way). Full religious attrire is perfectly acceptable in all other locations or in private schools. France is a democracy and this is the decision they have made. It has already been vetted by the European courts of human rights to ensure that it is not discriminatory and been passed. Who here honestly believes they have a right to tell the French how to live

Didn't say the French couldn't live the way they want. (Bush 1 voice) Nah' gonna' do it (end Bush 1 voice). I'm simply expressing my disappointment with a supposedly "free" country doing what they can to limit individual liberties in expressing their religious preference. Not discriminatory? This ban is targeted directly at Muslims, wouldn't you agree?
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
Who here honestly believes they have a right to tell the French how to live?


Interesting in light of the fact that the European culture has been making value judgements on us for YEARS...but it's "not fair" when the shoe's on the other foot?
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think the big problem with this is it was a ban against "conspicuous" articles of religious significance. So veils are the most easily targeted, along with yamakuh's (sp?) but tastefull crosses and the like are still ok. The point was to keep people focused on school instead of religion, and to not be singled out for the obviousness of their religion. (France has a very large Muslim population.) But it is bigotry against Islamic people, and it is intolerant. Telling people they need to embrace their new French culture is all well and good, but it's ultimately a repressive, imperialistic attitude. I would have expected more from someplace like France.
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
Deference,

"I don't have too much of a problem with the whole "secular society" bit, it's when it wages war on the non-secular it should supposedly co-exist with that I then have a problem"

They're not "waging war" on the non-secular world at all. People are free to wear whatever religious symbols they like out on the street, or in their own homes. Just not in school. Seems fair enough to me.
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
What is wrong with it being intolerant? It is equally intolerant of ALL religions. Yes, muslim face scarfs may be seen as the primary target, but the law only applies the constitution, which was written centuries before muslims were ever an issue in France. Don't forget that religiously acceptable alternatives are allowed.

Try flipping the argument around though. Why should any group be allowed to be intolerant of the wishes of the Fench majority as inscribed in their constitution? Surely minorities should also be tolerant of the wishes of the people as a whole?

There is a big difference between intolerance and bigotry. The French have strict limits on religious attire in schools in accordance with their laws and constitution. Intolerant? Maybe. Bigoted it is not. The word bigot means 'One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ'. This is not the case, the French constitution abns all religion, not just those that differ from the majority.

To compare the intolerance and reduction of freedom to alternative situations.
Imagine the reaction if naturalists insisted on the right for their kids to be naked in school. Would you expect any society to be intolerant of this?
Look a the debate in the US over the Patriot act. It reduces freedoms and tolerance but is supported by many.

You must accpet that a democratic society has the right to apply limitations to its freedoms and tolerances, so long as these are equally applied to all.

Paul.