Compulsory Voting: A Forum Discussion

from JoeUser Forums
OK, this is a nod to our Aussie contingent.

I am, on principle, against the idea of compulsory voting, but I think it would be an interesting debate topic. Here are my questions:

To Australians: What are the pros and cons from your point of view of your compulsory voting system? Have you seen abuses and how would you act to eliminate those abuses if you have seen them.

To Americans (and anyone without a compulsory voting system): Do you think compulsory voting would be a practical idea for your country? Would it significantly change the political landscape in your country? What abuses do you see in such a system and how would you work to avoid them?

I look forward to your input.

sincerely,

Gideon MacLeish
politics
8,273 views 25 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top
Here is my American answer:
We gain nothing by forcing people to vote who would not do so by choice except chaos. I will fight all day with a man with whom I disagree but spare not a moment for a man with no opinion. Forcing them to vote doesn't force them to develop an opinion it only forces them to make a choice.

Change the landscape...probably not.

Abuses in the system...the system is an abuse.
Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
This is one Australian's view:

We are basically forced to inform ourselves, at least in some cursory way. We know we have to vote, and in some small way it gives us an incentive to at least pay attention to the process and its outcome.

I will be the first to say that this is not the inevitable result of compulsory voting. I imagine there are a lot of void votes that do not count because some idiot has written "fuck politics" or what not on the ballot.

You could conceivably list this under the cons. As voting is compulsory and not everyone who votes will have educated themselves on why they should vote or how to vote, there are a lot of votes that are unintentional, or donkey votes (where voters mark the boxes with 1-n in sequence, not actually stating their preferences but just filling the spaces) that could have a confounding effect.

The fact that our voting is compulsory could have something to do with the fact that our electoral system is hinged on what is known as "preferences". In effect this means that you do not only vote for who you vote for. Depending on which "seat" you vote in, the party you vote for will have preferences. This means that if the party or candidate you vote for doesn't win, your vote goes to your candidates "preference". This has lead to a lot of back door dealing amongst the political parties and we Aussies have a somewhat ambivalent attitude towards this system.

What you must also keep in mind is that voting here isn't really compulsory. We have to enrol (the equivalent of your registration i guess) and we have to show up to the polls, but we don't have to vote. It's a secret ballot and you don't have to actually vote, just drop the ballot in the box. If you don't, you get a paltry $20 fine, not a gun to the head.

I would say that the main benefit is that our political parties can concentrate on campaigning on issues, rather than expending large amounts of money and energy just getting people to the polls. Politics here aren't as theatrical for this very reason. Quite subdued affairs if you ask me and i prefer it that way. I would rather hear the policies than the din.

All up, i'm all for it, seeing as absenteeism is just as political a statement as voting is, it can just cause a whole lot more damage. Better register everyone's voice and opinion rather than those who have a vested interest in getting their voice heard. You end up cancelling out a lot of complexity in the electoral process just by having everyone at least showing up.

Marco
Siege of Centauri
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
ok,

so we have one American's view and one Aussie view. Let's see if we can get this thread rolling a little further.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top
No No NO! A thousand times no!
It should be a privelege that must be earned. Heinlien had it right that citizenship is a responsibility
and a duty that should be earned. Call me elitist or whatever, but if you were required to serve your country in
some way shape or form to earn the right to vote or to run for office, we would be down a lot of political hacks
in both houses of congress and IMHO that would not be too bad a thing.
Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
ssg,

Very interesting point. I'm holding my thoughts until I get more input. Please check back on this one, though.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
It should be a privelege that must be earned. Heinlien had it right that citizenship is a responsibility and a duty that should be earned


The ancient Greek and Roman republics had the same idea. Cause of their greatness or ultimate cause of their demise?

We are either all of us citizens or some of us slaves. That's my humble reckoning anyway.

Marco
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
Yeah, that would sort of conflict with the ideal of all people being created equal and such....
Reply #8 from PolMach Forums Top
The problem I have with compulsory voting is that people who have little interest and little knowledge about issues would be voting.
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
Marco,
those societies were brought down in part by their slavery. There was no immigration except as slaves or semi Independent vassal states.
In my perfect world there would be a way for anyone to serve.
Peace Corps, Americorps, Marine Corps, NASA, anything that shows some sort of value to our nation.
It should be something that anyone below a certain age could do.
The major problem with enacting this program would be the political hacks I mentioned above unless it
came from a constitutional amendment. (Not too likely, look at the ERA)
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
In my perfect world there would be a way for anyone to serve.
Peace Corps, Americorps, Marine Corps, NASA, anything that shows some sort of value to our nation.
It should be something that anyone below a certain age could do.


I agree with you 100%. It's just your notion of citizenship that worried me...but not really now that i think of it. There is a vast difference between a mere inhabitant and a citizen (in practise, if not theory), no matter what rights are granted to you according to the "rules" of membership.

Marco
Reply #11 from PolMach Forums Top
I am against compulsory voting. America is free country, and If you don't want to vote, you don't have to. It is a shame though, that any person would not express a wish to participate in the Great Democratic Process, that was bought with blood, but it is their right.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
Forcing voting isn't the same as forcing oneself to become informed. It is just forcing people to vote.
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
I would porefer to see encouraged voting as oppossed to compulsory voting.

For example, if people who vote were given a 1/2% tax rebate, or a discount on local service charges, I think voter turnout would increase dramatically. You just need to find a carrot big enough and one which appeals to all voters, whether income earners, house wives, retired, etc...

Government could then jsut increase taxes in general by 1/2% and all balances out nicely. Except for those that don't vote of course!

Paul.
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
Forcing voting isn't the same as forcing oneself to become informed. It is just forcing people to vote.


No one forces you to vote, Draginol. Like I said, a $20 fine. Not exactly coercion. And that's only if you don't show up on the day. You can show up and not vote, as long as you mark your name off the roll.

I believe that Australians are some of the most politically informed people on the planet. Given our geographical isolation from our "roots", our position within such a volatile and ever shifting area of the world (South East Asia and the Pacific region) and our need for a network of alliances (both strategic and economic) given our limited military strength, we have had to be. I also, firmly, believe that our politicial institutions and methods (including compulsory voting) have contributed to our "education".

Marco
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
I believe compulsory voting is on the whole a good idea, but there are weaknesses. For example in the US it's presumably difficult to grant the franchise to the dead due to the small electorates. But in Australia, and especially in Queensland, the AEC (electoral commission) spends half its time visiting graveyards to keep the dead out of the polling booths. The Labor Party has a proud tradition of believing in truly universal sufferage, but the Liberal and National Parties aren't far behind.

However it does mean that there are a lot of protest votes - 4% of the population at the last election chose to void their ballot rather than be involved. And that figure has been steadily rising over the years.

Perhaps the best part of compulsory voting is that everyone is forced to have an opinion, whether they're intelligent enough to have a rational one or not. A landslide victory is just that, rather than the result of being able to get lots of people to the polls. Winners deserve their victories, unlike some countries (especially in the third world) where miniscule numbers of voters turn up and victories are easily rigged.
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
Perhaps the best part of compulsory voting is that everyone is forced to have an opinion, whether they're intelligent enough to have a rational one or not. A landslide victory is just that, rather than the result of being able to get lots of people to the polls. Winners deserve their victories, unlike some countries (especially in the third world) where miniscule numbers of voters turn up and victories are easily rigged.


A good summation of the benefits of compulsory voting. It is one of the things i wholeheartedly love about the electoral process in Australia. We get as close to the intention of the word mandate in political practice as anyone else.

I still, however, do not agree with Howard's 2001 assertion that he had a mandate from the people. With both the ALP and Liberal party scoring 38.7% of the primary vote, the electorate, in effect, were still undecided between the two parties after the polls had closed.

It's a blight on our record that Howard then used this "mandate" to sully our international reputation and undermine this countries integrity in every arena other than economics. It will be interesting to note what the Australian people see as the "issues" that will determine the Lalapalooza we affectionately call our federal elections.

Marco
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think that if someone is too lazy to vote, they probably shouldn't be voting.
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
I think that if someone is too lazy to vote, they probably shouldn't be voting.


So that's probably 50% of the American population. What else would they be too lazy to do?

In statistics there is something called response bias. It's a problem encountered by phone surveys and questionnaires that are mailed out and returned only by those interested in the questions.

Often response bias is enough to invalidate research that is as inane as what sort of dish washing liquid the public prefers to use. Imagine what response bias does on the grand scale of a national election.

Marco
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
I just looked up a bunch of different definitions for response bias and it is not what I think you are implying.

Link

I don't think voting doesn't have response bias because it is private and you are not under pressure to conform. Nobody knows what you really voted.

What you are trying to say is decisions are made by those who show up and I think that is exactly correct. A better way to put it is that decisions are made by those who CARE ENOUGH to show up.

Imagine your survey filled out by people who didn't care about what their responses where...what good did that do you?
Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
One reason people don't vote is that their individual vote doesn't matter. People make a purely rational decision that their individual vote makes no difference in the outcome, and therefore don't bother to--even though they may be well-informed. This is harmful for society.

If voting was mandatory this wouldn't be such an issue.
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
OK,

Here's my POV. I stayed out of it because I really wanted a forum discussion, as I am interested in the Aussie political system, even if I do not endorse it.

I don't believe in compulsory voting, in large part because it's as much a part of our civil rights to not vote as it is to vote. We shouldn't be penalized for not going to the polls, and although it's a decision I don't agree with, it is nonetheless a decision we have a right to make.

Personally, I would like to see more study done on a setup such as the one ssg proposed, where full citizenship is earned rather than a given. I believe that it would increase the civic responsibility of our citizens, but it would, of course, be denounced as racist because it holds minorities to the same standard of responsibility (mark my words....Jackson and Sharpton would be all over that!). I don't know that I would advocate for such a system, but I think there is merit in at least studying ways we may be able to bring positive change to our country.

Thanks to everyone for the excellent responses.
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
I don't consider low voter turn out a bad thing. If I were emperor, I woudl require that people pass some sort of IQ test or something to vote. I don't think voting should be easier, I think people should have to put some effort to vote so that they're serious about it.
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
One reason people don't vote is that their individual vote doesn't matter. People make a purely rational decision that their individual vote makes no difference in the outcome, and therefore don't bother to--even though they may be well-informed. This is harmful for society.


That sounds to me like excuses, it always has. If everybody's individual vote doesn't matter why does anybody vote? Again, I think these decisions are left to those who are there to make the decision.
Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
I don't consider low voter turn out a bad thing. If I were emperor, I woudl require that people pass some sort of IQ test or something to vote. I don't think voting should be easier, I think people should have to put some effort to vote so that they're serious about it.


A wise man once said "You don't vote for Kings".