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it was John Kerry who came back from Vietnam and launced attacks against our soldiers, when he should have been helping fight the spread of communism and socialism. I don't want a man who won't stand behind our soldiers the be their commander-in-chief. The President supports our soldiers. John Kerry would rather have our military fighting with spitballs, as the Hon. Zell Miller so eloquently put it.

kerry didnt attack our soldiers; he was attacking the johnson administration and the defense department for irresponsible acts that made that war even more traumatic. miller so eloquently misconstrued alot of the 'facts' he cited. when cheney was defense secretary he and the first president bush opposed many of the same weapons systems. cheney received five deferrals and was once quoted as saying he 'had better things to do' than serve in the military.

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Citizen enkydu & Draginol,

Okay first I do not think GOP are all simple minded. I think both parties tend to vote the party and NEVER researrch one single bit of evidence if the candidate is good or all hype!

Second, I am not doing any dis-service to anyone bud!

I am being an american and posting my discent as this is what America is all about.

It really depends on where you get your information Dranginol. Where did you get yours? My info reads differently and I know for a fact it is more accurate. Bush was appointed and there is a long trail that proves it. I do not have time to post all the links I have found myself. Dude look at it objectively will you? Bush is a bumbling stumbling idiot and I never have said that about any president in my 50 years of life. He is not runniing this country the neo-conservatives are. They call themselves "The Vulcans" man I guess you have to be in bad health and a lot of time to waste in order to find this stuff out.

I have family in florida and many friends I lived there for 9 years dude. I know of at least 30,000 votes that were not counted, and not to mention the people who were prevented from going to the polls by police making road blocks.. If some got through they would be asked for not one ID but several and be denied. Bush won because the Supreme court disallowed the votes from being counted PERIOD!

I am not supporting any party, but I certainly support Kerry/Edwards. Keep this in mind, this is the first time in history the DEMS have united this strongly. If you read that same history you will find whenever the DEMS unite together they always win, why? Because the majority of the registered voters in this country one time or another are higher in numbers then the GOP. This is why they own the airways like FOX NEWS and 100's of right wing radio programs.

I am creating forums at my website for the excellent Pol. Machine game, and for grins and giggles a political forum for (FRIENDLY) debates. NeoTech Gaming Network a proud affiliate of Stardock. http://www.neotechgaming.com we are a new site and sci-fi themed. All parties are welcome.. kingbee excellent post you said it for me.. If you research the situation he was repeating what other soldiers had told him. My brother was in nam from 68-70 he affirmed that some in his own platoon did do all the things (no heads cut off) that he said that some did. Not all, some of them. The words in congress was directed at the government not at our Men in uniform. Geesh some people do not investigate only believe what they see and hear.

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ShoZan- Were you advocating the fact that we went to Iraq because it saved 1000 jobs? Or were you advicating that halliburton got the contract because it saved 1000 jobs? Or did i missunderstand you?

I don't know the entire reasons for going into Iraq, nor am I going to really dig deep into it, because that would get away from what I was trying to state. I was just commenting on the complaints about Haliburton getting the contract in Iraq, and they complain about Cheney's affliation with Haliburton, but won't even look at how it benefited Haliburton's employees, etc. before deeming it entirely bad for Haliburton to get the contract, who DID they want Exxon, Texaco, Shell? If another oil company was going around and about to go down the drain I would have suggested they got the contract to save American jobs, it should not have mattered so much which got the job, all I know from what I have seen that Haliburton needed a big boost to keep up with the competition with Exxon, Shell, etc., but people are complaining they should not have recieved it, who should have France, Russia, Saudia Arabia?? For one, I think that once we are done Haliburton leaves, but will help them with maintence and training, giving the Iraqi People more control over their oil than previously had.

Citizen ShoZan, man what does it matter how much Kerry is worth or how much he pays in taxes? He is going to tax the people who are supposed to be taxed in the first place. THE RICH! Bush is shifting the burden from the RIch to the middle class and below. Read the market reports they were just released. On Bush's watch over 4.1 million people have fallen from the middle class to lower living. In worst cases there are now 1.6 million who are in proverty all because of Bush. Kerry has turned down money time and time again. Bush takes whatever he can and helped to keep his buddy who ran Enron out of problems for a very long time. I could write a dang book on the info I have about this whole scam the Republicans are doing right now.

You know if all these rich people who are complaining about tax breaks for the rich, all I want to say is GIVE THE MONEY BACK, if you are going to complain, you can fill out a form and GIVE THE MONEY BACK. Kerry probably pays less in taxes than Bush, because Kerry probably knows alot about the ins and outs of the tax codes, since he has seen the laws first hand, so that is probably the case. Oh and let's just tax the RICH, good job there, now I wlll have no reason to become rich, not mention making it harder for employers to pay liability, health, etc. insurance. Was the tax cut not an across the board percentage tax cut, not sure never really looked into it cause tax codes are boring. Either way taxing the RICH is not a solution to the problem, I have only seen one man every come out on both sides and state what is a very good solution a FLAT RATE TAX, and that man was Alan Keyes. Things are learned about an Flat Rate Tax is that it's an across the board tax rate.

Example **EXAMPLE**: Let's say with a Flat Tax Rate that the rate is set at 10% which is 3% more than what Keys was suggesting but for the purposes of this example it makes the numbers easier.
Poor Person makes $10000 he/she pays $1000
Middle Class Person makes $50000 he/she pays $5000
Upper Middle Class Person makes $120000 he/she pays $12000
Rich Person makes $1000000 he/she pays $100000
From the example I can clearly see that everybody has an equal tax burden, which is proportionate to how much he/she makes, what is wrong with this, some will say well the Rich get Richer and the Poor get Poorer, that simply is not the case, if you want to REALLY stop the rich from getting richer, make EVERYONE in the US stop purchasing products from that rich person, whether it be movies, software, or popsicles. I don't see a Rich Person as inherently evil, nor do I see a Poor Person as inherently stupid, that is not the case, the Democratic Party in it's recent history is one that seeks to push a Socialistic Tax Code, I am sorry but was not Russia and China an example of what's wrong with Socialism and Communism, China is now seeking to take back Taiwan, simply because it needs another CASH COW to help its dwindling economy, pretty much the reason Hong Kong has a serperate government from China. To simply state that the rich got a big break, well yeah when you put numbers against a percentage and see that the person got more than back than a middle class person, keep in mind he makes more and pays more, so if percentages are dropped he would get back more (sorry ladies, just got little lazy with adding the shes). Do you think with Kerry's tax raise that the middle class and the poor would unaffected, probably not since it will be a percentage raise, or at least some sort of raise that would ultimately affect the middle and lower as well. Also when you say the tax burden is on the middle class, keep in mind who is the dominant class in America, neither the lower or the upper, but the middle, more middles means more money being paid, so no matter what the majority of the tax burden will always be on them, which is why politicians will always use their opponents tax cut or raise as a platform for defending the middle class.

Try visiting CSPAN for starters, visit a local book store pick up the Iron Triangle.. That one alone will open your eyes. Also do a search on the Bush family see what you find. It will shock you it did me as to how they could be where they are. OH, Masonic Temple, ever hear of it? You will see the signs when entering any City just on the outter limits of the city where it says welcome to whatever name it is. Bush Sr. was the Grand Wizard or leader of the North American branch which is how his son won the 2000 election. The police who blocked some voters from getting to the polls, some 20,000 of them. They all belonged to the Masonic Temple. Secret Society datng way back forgot the date. There is a lot at stake here that is for sure. Well it has been fun.. I have to get out of here before I will never be able to stop posting.

My father and Grandfather are masons, and do not forget that there are Masonic Brotherhoods such as the Shriners, etc. who do a lot for their communities, and Masons have been around way before the United States was a twinkle in somebody's eye, since they have been around so long a lot of people draw their own conclusions, but none factual, because none of them were members of the Masonic order now were they? They just made up their own theories and ran with it. Problem is a lot of conspiracy theorists are paranoid so they have tendency to blow things out of proportion.

I was only suggesting Google as it is one of the search engines everybody uses, but there is also infoseek, and the grey matter inbetween people's ears to determine if the site they have gone to is actually informational or fictional.

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Zell Miller is made at his party, doesn't make him a Republican right off the back. I know all Democrats are pissed off calling him an idiot or a traitor. Just because you are a demorcrat and back a republican doesnt make you a republican.

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Good point Rickyrod! I am not a democrat I call him that only because he rolls over for anyone who provides pork barrel items for his state. Bush admin did the same as Clinton did, promised him anything he wanted. Personally it does not matter to me really. I am just having fun in these forums. I created some political forums at my site for the same reason. It is entertaining to discuss politics where some get hot under the collar if one word is said about their party etc. Oh sorry I did not mean that the Masonic group as a whole are bad or anything. I just was pointing out how Bush Sr. used his Leadership for the group to get Bush jr. Elected. The Supreme court big shot also belongs to the same group. They are all friends and why I say Bush was appointed and not elected. This time around they are trying to pull a fast one with these electronic no trail voting machines. The company who makes them all are big GOP supporters and the 2002 elections are a good example of how they rigged the machines. I do not just spout things that are false or misleading I only speak about things I know are facts. Never do I assume any party is correct nor the media either for that matter. Most of my info comes from CSPAN records or researching various books or the GAO website where most everything is stored.

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I think it does when you speak at their convention!

On the subject of Masons. A lot of politicians from both parties have been masons, and for that matter all professions in american society. Hell, they're trying to recruit me! (Scottish Rite...I'm holding out for El Kalah, i want me a fez, and a little car!) Even though i'm a dem, which i have told them well in advance. The masons are not technically a political orginization and do not run the world. But a lot of folks who are masons do run the world. So i think it's a bit of a moot point. Similar to saying that JFK was a catholic so by default the catholic church ran the US when he was in power.

I gotta go catch a plane folks..Time to go back t the land of Zion and take a couple of weeks of well deserved time off. Gonna go drown some worms, and FINALLY finish the restoration on the love of my life....My 82 911sc Targa!!

This has been a great thread! with very articulate and well though out input from both sides of the dabate. I salute you all!

I'll be checking in from time to time...play nice kids!

thanks for reading,
Thatoneguyinslc

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I don't know the entire reasons for going into Iraq, nor am I going to really dig deep into it, because that would get away from what I was trying to state. I was just commenting on the complaints about Haliburton getting the contract in Iraq, and they complain about Cheney's affliation with Haliburton, but won't even look at how it benefited Haliburton's employees, etc. before deeming it entirely bad for Haliburton to get the contract, who DID they want Exxon, Texaco, Shell? If another oil company was going around and about to go down the drain I would have suggested they got the contract to save American jobs, it should not have mattered so much which got the job, all I know from what I have seen that Haliburton needed a big boost to keep up with the competition with Exxon, Shell, etc., but people are complaining they should not have recieved it, who should have France, Russia, Saudia Arabia?? For one, I think that once we are done Haliburton leaves, but will help them with maintence and training, giving the Iraqi People more control over their oil than previously had.

The government has a responsability to give the contract to the lowest bidder, not the one that may not be doing well. No company should get a contract because it might go under if it doesn't. Thinking like that would cause the government to go further bankrupt, giving contracts to a bidder even when they were 10 times more expensive because they might lose 1000 jobs if they don't get the contract. Thats not acceptable.

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ShoZan, I know I was pointing out something about search engines is all. They did this one time with Kerry being a flip flopper.. If you type in Waffle you will pull hits on Kerry. This is the riggin I was referring to. Some engines you can not do this but Google, Yahoo and few others can be.

I agree with about everything you are saying anyways.

Masons are not the key point, my point was Bush Senior using his position to get Bush Jr. elected. Nothing really wrong with that Society. The Skull and Bones is the one that bothers me a little. It seems that every election cycle this soceity group or whatever you wish to call them, has one of its members elected. Now what do you suppose is the big deal about this? This group is the only thing I could not find much about. Most is heresay or just rumors no real knowledge is known about them.

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

Desert Fox: You are confusing opinion with fact. That was what I was trying to get at.

The Supreme Court overruled the Florida Supreme Court which in turn had overruled the distict court. By your reasoning, no matter who ended up winning someone could argue they were "selected". But at the end of the day, Bush did get the most LEGALLY casted votes in Florida (legal as in determined by the Florida Legislature). And that, my friend, is a fact.

Whether you or I believe that the discarded votes should have counted or the people who miscast in the butterfly ballot fiascal should have gotten to revote is a matter of opinion.

But that's all besides the point. If your goal in partcipating in political debates is to put forth a compelling argument, using phrases like "President Select" only turns moderates and conservatives off - they'll dismiss you as a idealogue.

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The government has a responsability to give the contract to the lowest bidder, not the one that may not be doing well. No company should get a contract because it might go under if it doesn't. Thinking like that would cause the government to go further bankrupt, giving contracts to a bidder even when they were 10 times more expensive because they might lose 1000 jobs if they don't get the contract. Thats not acceptable.

That's true, but I am just going on about how people complain about Haliburton getting the contract. Were they lowest bidder, we don't know because we don't who else made the offer, and how low did they go, plus we don't know who got influenced by which oil companies, so somebody coming out and saying Haliburton was because of Cheney could be influenced by Exxon or Shell, etc. There will always be a bit of corruption when it comes to dealing with big industries such as the Oil Companies, because they will try to influence the officials making the decisions by bribes and deals, etc., and yeah you reminded of the point a Cobra Helicopter Pilot said to me once, whenever you get into a military vehicle or aircraft, just remember everything down to the bolts on it were from the lowest bidder, which makes you kind of worried, but the point was humorous as well.

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www.zellout.com

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....it ain't a water buffalo!