if you want to take it farther, what if i think church should be discourage, because its just sitting. we have a huge obesity problem in the US, so everyone from 8-12 on sunday has to play youth sports? oh wait, no thats idioitic

Hahahha.. excelent way to show the insanity of such a law as was proposed.

This is the most offensive topic I have ever seen. What a conceited jackass. "lets make fun activities illegal on sunday because its more important that I get the satisfaction of seeing the kids learn about my religion then it is for parents to make their own choices about what their own kids are allowed to do".

cwarsh,

While I hold many of the same political views as you, I would like to encourage you to be a bit more diplomatic in your responses. Crisp is an excellent blogger, and while I disagree with this view, there are better ways to address it than degenerating into namecalling.

in this case i think its called for

While I hold many of the same political views as you, I would like to encourage you to be a bit more diplomatic in your responses. Crisp is an excellent blogger, and while I disagree with this view, there are better ways to address it than degenerating into namecalling.

I agree, just so you know, Crisp, I've no ill will towards you either, and the article you wrote a while back about allow lefties to marry was a brilliant metaphor, I enjoyed it immensely.

To everyone (in no particular order):

I appreciate everyone's comments and indeed, many are wotrthwhile. However, you seem to forget a few important points. First, setting aside time on Sunday mornings is not an invasion of your privacy nor does it require you to do anything. Second, you have 168 hours in a week and everything has some controls. Think of the activities that are limited and tell me why this is "so outrageous" unless it is outrageous the other activities are limited also.

The fact is: Sundays are becoming more and more just another day. What will you say when businesses require you work longer because Sunday is "just another day"? Hmmm? Will you quote scripture and claim that Sunday (or Saturday in the case of Jews and Seventh Day Adventists) must be kept "holy"? Truth is, you have already said you don't want it holy or controlled.

But remember the golden rule of business: Them with the gold makes the rules. Right now tradition and the church is all that stands between you and longer and longer work weeks. Of course, that might be even more fun!

Finally, since the end of World War II the breakdown of the family in the United States has been one of it's biggest problems. Is it a coincidence that church attendence is down over 40% since then?

Right now tradition and the church is all that stands between you and longer and longer work weeks. Of course, that might be even more fun!

Many people don't have sunday off, and that is not a bad thing. The problem with your theory, is that though well thought out, you missed the fact that businesses can't do what people won't let them. People may not be willing to work on sundays, and unless they are willing to pay more business can't make them. The other thing is that sunday is just a day off. To you it may be a day that is holy, however to the government it is a 7th day in the week. I have to leave now, as it is friday evening and I have plans, but I will give some more details later.

That sounds slightly better...but the fact still remains that this is asking for the government to dictate how we spend our time. We don't need this kind of micro-managing. It really steps on our independence, even if the intention is to "give us a break" or something. It's taking away the freedom to choose.

Something that keeps bothering me though is the insinuation that it is bad parenting and a wrong choice not to send children to Sunday School, and children who play sports on Sundays have weak-willed parents who are giving in to the children's wishes. There is no right or wrong choice here. There is absolutely nothing wrong with choosing to spend Sundays doing something other than church activities. Everyone worships in their own way, and a Christian education doesn't have to be learned in a Sunday School classroom. It's wrong to look down on parents who don't choose to send their kids to Sunday School.

I appreciate everyone's comments and indeed, many are wotrthwhile. However, you seem to forget a few important points. First, setting aside time on Sunday mornings is not an invasion of your privacy nor does it require you to do anything. Second, you have 168 hours in a week and everything has some controls. Think of the activities that are limited and tell me why this is "so outrageous" unless it is outrageous the other activities are limited also.

Personally, we shut down on Sundays. It is our day of rest, and it's dedicated to God and to the family. But that is a personal choice.

The problem is, you are basically asking that such an observance be made MANDATORY. That's really what the issue's about.

Let's say you had your way. Would we then begin policing the parks and arresting anyone caught within their parameters with sporting equipment? And if it didn't improve Sunday School attendance, should we then change the law even further to require that these people be in places of worship, conducting house to house searches to insure they comply? And what would be a just penalty for repeated, egregious offenses?

I agree that moral standards in this country have slipped, and badly. I disagree that the solution is to force them to go to church, synagogue, mosque, what have you...this doesn't create a nation of moral people; it instead creates a nation of hypocrites (example: Jerusalem in the time of Christ).

Crisp, you have some excellent ideas, and I am 100% behind your intent here. But I think your approach is completely misguided.

CrispE-The idea of forcing organizations to no longer hold sports events on Sundays is a noble goal, however it is too much influence of the Church on the State. What about those families who practice a different religion or perhaps do not believe in religion at all? It is unconstitiutional to prohibit them from playing sports on Sundays simply because you and I feel our children should attend Sunday school. In some ways I hate the seperation of Church and State but in other ways I am glad to have such a system in place. Take a look at the history behind this matter, that law was created over two hundred years ago by men who escaped religious persecution. When the church and state are combined it does many things (some of which are real bad news), but two consequences stand out in my mind. First the corruption of the Church, Europe was plunged into years of religious wars after the Vatican began selling forgiveness from God -Churches should be not-for-profit, not-for-politics, but for a place to worship and nothing more. When the two entities are combined it also allows Preachers, Priests, etc to tell us to vote for a certain candidate. This is one of the dumbest things I have seen in my 23 years of living on this fine little planet. Do not ever let someone tell you how to vote, learn for yourself otherwise you are an ignorant voter (remember ignorance is simply stupidity because someone is not informed on the matter). Back to the point, you cannot mandate that everyone in an area will attend Sunday school instead of Sunday sports, the Supreme Court would strike it down as Unconstitutional (not even a maybe, they would). I am a strong Christian as well as someone entering the field of Politics in the next year or so when I graduate. Like I said before your idea is a noble one, but unfeasible. Let me provide an alternative. If it is a local YMCA I cannot believe that they would host sports events on a Sunday and I would contact the director of your local YMCA or someone who fills the roll of a regional manager or spokesperson. If it is a school sporting event they cannot penalize the children for attending Sunday school instead of Sports events. This is just as Unconstitutional as forcing Kids to go to church instead of sports. Coaches cannot legally penalize a child for not attending due to their religious beliefs. All sporting leagues have their own management members who coordinate efforts within the organization. Contact these people and explain the points to them. If they feel like it is not worth changing the day in which things are held then unfortunately you cannot do anything about these leagues except promote parents to not enroll the children in those organizations. Parents, if you feel this way look up Christian organizations that hold sports events, there are usually plenty. You should be able to satisfy your child's needs for sports while still worshipping as much as you want your kids to worship. I hope I have provided an alternative to your suggestion while keeping your ideas you wish to convey.

Truth is, you have already said you don't want it holy or controlled.

OK, crispe, now you've gone over the top. I will respond in kind.

I NEVER said I didn't want Sundays to be holy. I said I don't want the government deciding it for me. My faith is my faith and does not need a government writ to be valid.

You are arguing for a compulsory religion law, crispe. Please explain how you truly feel this is compatible with the first amendment.

Do you truly feel that a compulsory religion law will actually cause more Americans to believe in Christ? If so, then maybe you need to do a closer study of scripture; a relationship with Christ is a HEART issue, not something the government can establish.

Furthermore, let's say for the sake of argument you obtain your compulsory religion laws. What will you do if the majority of voters in '08 are muslims? Better get your wife under that burqa or prepare to meet the consequences.

These scenarios that opponents are showing you are not hypotheticals; they are based on incidents that have happened under past religious oriented governments.

You can persist in trying to mandate religious worship, crispe, but I will persist in opposing it as long as the constitution stands as the supreme law of this country.

Gideon:

I am not asking for mandatory anything in terms of religion. But if you consider the extension of the argument that government should not have any say in what we do with our time as many have suggested then it is obvious that businesses will see Sunday as more of an opportunity to do business each day and eliminate the position that the church has held in society by de-emphasizing the idea that church services (which are currently the tradition) are even proper.

The operation of church and state separation was never intended as a brick wall through which nothing passed. Indeed, why have a Chaplain for Congress if this were so?

The point I am trying to make to those who believe that Sunday is "just another day" is that they benefit from having churches active whether they want to believe it or not. Factories are purposely shut down now because of the Sunday tradition. But ask the factory owners if they do it because they want to and they will tell you that it would be much better for the business to rotate labor through Sunday scheduling.

People attend church not out of compulsion but rather out of choice. They play sports for the same reason. Both are worthwhile. No one is questioning that. However, 162 hours per week to play sports (everything but Sunday morning) doesn't threaten the sports or the rights of individuals. Organized leagues which operate in that time (6 AM to Noon) could easily operate at Noon. That would be fine with me. But it would give family's a better chance to spend time together and perhaps maybe explore the idea of faith. Maybe not. So be it.

I understand most of the posters think this would impinge on their freedom. They have a right to that opinion. I will support their right to that opinion. Some people still insist that eventually WMD's will be found in Iraq. I don't agree with that sentiment. However, the right of the minority to be wrong is one of the principal protections of Constitutional law. We don't just say that freedom of the "right speech" is guaranteed, we say all speech.

So really you and I are on the same side, seeing that our faith base in this country is eroding. For 40 years churches have been inviting people to come and seek God and for 40 years the churches have been losing. Now the problem gets more serious. The problem becomes that the church is becoming irrelevant. When that happens society becomes poorer, less moral, less able to meet the challenges that inevitably confront all people.

What will we of faith say to our God then? That we believed setting aside 6 hours per week on Sunday morning was too much to ask of our people? That separation of church and state as we interpreted it was more important to us than Him?

What will we of faith say to our God then? That we believed setting aside 6 hours per week on Sunday morning was too much to ask of our people? That separation of church and state as we interpreted it was more important to us than Him?

Sorry to be blunt Crispe, but what you say to your god is your problem and not the problem of the government nor of the public.

The operation of church and state separation was never intended as a brick wall through which nothing passed. Indeed, why have a Chaplain for Congress if this were so?

The congress is not mandated to see that chaplin every sunday.

The point I am trying to make to those who believe that Sunday is "just another day" is that they benefit from having churches active whether they want to believe it or not. Factories are purposely shut down now because of the Sunday tradition. But ask the factory owners if they do it because they want to and they will tell you that it would be much better for the business to rotate labor through Sunday scheduling.

You said it yourself, factories are closed out of tradition. Out of the fact that people want their sundays off. Factories are however not FORCED to close. They still do. There are unions to prevent factory owners for doing everything they want to. Government mandation that they not operate is not how to handle the situation. Further, what if I want to work on sunday? What if I need the extra money? Are you saying that no, instead I have to rest? What if I'm not tired? Too bad for me? I think not.

eliminate the position that the church has held in society by de-emphasizing the idea that church services (which are currently the tradition) are even proper.

The government has no position that church service is proper. It has the position that it is acceptable and allowable, and that anyone and everyone should be allowed to participate in it, but that is all.

sandy2:

I never suggested that what we say to God is anyone's problem but our own and the point I was trying to make with Gideon (not yourself) is that if you are a believer in God and feel that the church is valuable then you ultimately should be prepared to tell God why you did what you did on Earth, even if you will be forgiven for it.

People of faith can differ in opinion and still be brothers in Christ. I have no problem that Gideon knows that. If you are a Christian then you too should consider this from a personal viewpoint.

As for factories, you may want to think about the fact that Sundays were originally given off because the owners of factories wanted to attend church. If they had felt their employees did not want to, then Sundays would be much different today. How do you feel about the paying of more than standard wage for Sunday work? Shouldn't it be the same as any other day? Or is government ok to bridge the separation of church and state in this instance because it benefits the worker?

Finally, what if the government were to decide that church services were not proper and closed churches? Would you argue that it was wrong from a faith perspective or that it was against separation of church and state? During World War I the government prohibited church services being practiced in German.

You see that there is much more to this issue than simply 6 hours per week. The government essentially can do what it wants when it wants. We may think principles of government apply but is that true in operation?

Finally, what if the government were to decide that church services were not proper and closed churches? Would you argue that it was wrong from a faith perspective or that it was against separation of church and state?

I would say it was wrong because it is unconstitutional. The government is not allowed to interfere with church services, either by promoting them or by deciding that they are not proper. Further, the constitution prohibits the government from preventing people from participating in their religious activities.

During World War I the government prohibited church services being practiced in German.

This was wrong. The government also detained japanese americans during world war II. This was also wrong.

Or is government ok to bridge the separation of church and state in this instance because it benefits the worker?

I didn't suggest that workers should be payed more per hour on sundays, just that working on sundays would allow workers to work more hours thus earning a higher income.

The government essentially can do what it wants when it wants.

Well, the government isn't really a person so the government can not technically want anything. The people who represent you in the government can want to do stuff, but if you are suggesting that they can do what ever they want you are misinformed. In a democratic republic, if the people who represent us do something we as a community don't agree with we can vote them out of office.

sandy2:

First, the re-election of incumbents is done at a rate that approaches 85% regardless of the incumbent's records. Second, the government may have been wrong in World War I but it was done and could be done nonetheless.

The point I am trying to make is that government only answers to the voters if they care enough to find out what government is doing AND then act coherently to replace those that don't represent their interests.

For example, you have written an article on the deficit. Isn't that itself reason enough to campaign against Mr. Bush and the Republicans who have (except for a brief period) controlled both houses of Congress since 1994 and the White House the last 4 years? Do you really think that anyone could do a worse job?

Factories are purposely shut down now because of the Sunday tradition.

This is actually a false statement. As one who has worked a good deal of factory jobs, I can tell you it depends on the size of the company. Larger factories almost always produce 7 days a week. They will often rotate workers' shifts so that nobody has to work every weekend, but if it is practical for them to work 7 days a week, they do.

In the years I spent in Wisconsin, most of the factories would shut down on Sunday AFTERNOONS in the fall. But it had absolutely nothing to do with church; it had to do with the fact that, if they remained open, most of their workforce would call in sick for the Packer games.

CrispE- if the government shut down churches, believe me that people would be outraged and would oust not only the president but every sitting congressman and sentator who voted in favor of that. In fact, people might be so mad they might just vote everyone out whether they were in favor of the bill or not.

sandy2:

I can't agree. Of course, to be "acceptable" they would claim some form of security threat or something, but the truth of governmental control is that politicians consider their actions to be non-negotiable with the people and actions to be in "everyone's best interest." This may sound very cynical on my part but when considering how the government acts (or doesn't) it should be obvious that certain abuses of power have continued not for years but rather generations.

I refer to the Rural Electrification Act in the thread for your post. This abuse has continued since the 1930's, gets appropriation by Congress, approved by the President each YEAR and if there has been one protest to it's continuance, I am yet to hear about it.

Gideon:

True, not all factories are shut down but I think you would agree that a large majority of them are. We have 5 major businesses where I live (all have stock traded on the NYSE) and none of them operate on Sunday except for maintenance.

I am a democrat. (Mostly moderate, but considered liberal by conservative's standards) I don't think it is out of line at all to require sports activities to be confined to times other than Sunday morning. That might be because I am a Christian and know the importance of Christian worship and fellowship on the Lord's day. Now, I like to come home after church and watch football on Sunday afternoons, however, if there is some other family or church activity at the same time, then priority for the football game is last. Just how it is. So, don't assume all "liberals" are anti-God, anti-church or anti-Bible. After all, God shows us by His grace that He is the most liberal of us all.

I am a democrat. (Mostly moderate, but considered liberal by conservative's standards) I don't think it is out of line at all to require sports activities to be confined to times other than Sunday morning.

I think it's way out of line. It's a clear violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment unless equal consideration is given to all other faiths. Which means sporting activities on Saturdays are out, too. Oh, yeah, and full moons.

I am a democrat. (Mostly moderate, but considered liberal by conservative's standards) I don't think it is out of line at all to require sports activities to be confined to times other than Sunday morning. I think it's way out of line. It's a clear violation of the establishment clause of the first amendment unless equal consideration is given to all other faiths. Which means sporting activities on Saturdays are out, too. Oh, yeah, and full moons.

I think its way out of line regardless of the cicumstances. You cant confine activities because you don't like them. End of discussion. Even if all faiths were given equal consideration it would not be acceptable, and I for one would not follow such a blatant violation of the constitution. Back to what someone said a long time ago, its equivilent to saying, nope, churches can't ring their bells on sundays because I'm trying to sleep, or even you can't drive a car on sunday unless you are going to church because it causes trafic jams and then people can't get to church as easily. Absurd.

sandy,

Good response, but I would like to point out that my responses, while still sincere, are often deliberately over the top for satirical purposes. I am obviously against this kind of legislation, as you will find if you scroll up through the threads, but it has been beaten to death, and the only way to show people why it's wrong is to go slightly over the top in your example sometimes. I mean, who's really going to check the moon cycle to find out if they can play football tonight?

Lol. I know its been beaten to death, I was part of the original discussion, I was just trying to give this person counter-examples. I was looking to repost someones very sarcastiic reply that I found quite humorus, I can't find it though.

excellent points. if you want to take it farther, what if i think church should be discourage, because its just sitting. we have a huge obesity problem in the US, so everyone from 8-12 on sunday has to play youth sports? oh wait, no thats idioitic

There it is...