The reason why we should get rid of the electoral college

Lets say 7 million people in New York voted. And lets say all of those votes went to kerry. Lets say that 1 person in each of the other 49 states voted and all of those states went for Bush. The outcome would be kerry 7 million and Bush 49 votes. Bush would win because he would get more electoral votes even though Kerry got more votes. The US has american ciizens not state citizens. We're not illinois citzens or ohio citizens. Or florida citizens or california citizens. We are American citizens and if more american citizens vote for a person that person should win. The electoral college should not decide.

We are not 50 states, we are 1 country. They treat the 50 states like 50 countries. Lets forget about states for a minute. Look at our selves as 1 country. Whoever gets more votes from our country deserves to be president, not the people of each state. A place such as florida for example should not decide our countries vote. The people of our country should decide and not a state or a county. They say big cities would dominate the vote then. So, more people live there and its the people that count. It should not matter where you live, it is about who gets more votes. We decide, not each state decides. Our country decides, states should not decide.
17,603 views 38 replies
Reply #1 Top
Nothing new, but I agree with you.

Look what the electoral college gave us for the past 3 1/2 years.
Reply #2 Top
This is an interesting post.

Lets say that 1 person in each of the other 49 states voted and all of those states went for Bush. The outcome would be kerry 7 million and Bush 49 votes.


I understand your argument (electoral college does not represent actual votes cast by all the voters), but I didn't follow the example above. Could you clarify for me? It's probably completely obvious, but I'm not getting it

Also, out of curiousity, are you against states' rights?

Reply #3 Top
Lets say 7 million people in New York voted. And lets say all of those votes went to kerry. Lets say that 1 person in each of the other 49 states voted and all of those states went for Bush. The outcome would be kerry 7 million and Bush 49 votes. Bush would win because he would get more electoral votes even though Kerry got more votes. The US has american ciizens not state citizens. We're not illinois citzens or ohio citizens. Or florida citizens or california citizens. We are American citizens and if more american citizens vote for a person that person should win. The electoral college should not decide.

We are not 50 states, we are 1 country. They treat the 50 states like 50 countries. Lets forget about states for a minute. Look at our selves as 1 country. Whoever gets more votes from our country deserves to be president, not the people of each state. A place such as florida for example should not decide our countries vote. The people of our country should decide and not a state or a county. They say big cities would dominate the vote then. So, more people live there and its the people that count. It should not matter where you live, it is about who gets more votes. We decide, not each state decides. Our country decides, states should not decide.


Lets say that the 7 million idiots in New York are voting for a liar who is also a racist pig.

Lets say that the 49 other votes (1 per state from your example) are smart enough to recognize that the 7 million voters in New York have been promised that their taxes will be eliminated while every other state watches their money go to them.

Do you not see the problems in your logic?

Fortunately enough, our founding fathers did see the problems in it, and they built in checks and balances for *everything*. It's all there, in a document called the Constitution, that no matter how badly some progressive/liberals may want to re-intrepret it through progressive judges in the court systems, hasn't gone away because the vast majority of citizens of the country recognize that making changes such as you suggest solve a perceived problem one time only to lead to far more problems later.

Nice try in the hopes of undoing the result of the last election and/or potentially undoing what could be coming again, but too bad it doesn't work.

And btw, even for as badly as you frame the example, you should understand well enough that the electoral college votes are spread out among the various states so it's not simply 49 votes in the electoral college for one candidate and 1 for the other in your mythical example. It would be more like 500 electoral votes for one candidate and 41 for the other. Not as obviously lopsided as you try to portray.
Reply #4 Top
Im saying that whoever gets more votes deserves the presidency. But you look at my example that the electoral college can give a presidency to a person who does not get more votes. With the state thing, a state should not determine who is our president. If the electoral college is close and ohio goes to a person by a few votes, those few votes should not choose our president. That can eliminate the lead from the person who has more votes. 49 votes is not more than 7 million votes.

I highly doubt that 1 person would only vote in a state but it is true that if that were like a hundred thousand, that would still make the person with more votes lose. The electoral college almost messed up in 2000 with the florida fiasco. What I hear is that Bush won florida by 500 some votes. Which means Bush got the presidency by 500 some votes because of florida. We may never know how many, but what I am saying is that it is possible that an electoral college can give the guy with more votes a loss. Terpfan1980, I mean 49 people votes to 7 million people votes, not 49 electoral votes.
Reply #5 Top
Thank you for entertaining my questions.

I highly doubt that 1 person would only vote in a state but it is true that if that were like a hundred thousand, that would still make the person with more votes lose.


OK . . . I get what you were going for now.

As to my question about the states' rights, I was just wondering what your opinion was about states' rights outside the realm of the presidential election. For example, do you feel that each state should be able to make their own laws about gun ownership or have their own educational standards? Does your view extend to other issues or is it limited to the electoral college?

Obviously, it is not the intent of this blog to discuss those issues per se, and I am not asking you to deviate from your topic here to cover these issues in depth. I am simply curious about how far you carry your "1 country" philosophy.
Reply #6 Top
The problem of taking away the electoral college is that many states would then NEVER see a presidential canidate ever enter their state. No canidate would care about the small states with low population because of states like California that have a vast majority of the population in them. Canidates would only purport ideas and messages that the high populous states care for to get the people's votes and would care less about the smaller states and wouldn't listen to the people there because they are a small population.

Having the college gives the small states, like Rhode Island, Vermont etc.. a better voice than if we went based purely on population.
Reply #7 Top
ok, you are right that places like wyoming and montana wouldn't see much, but their is unfortunately a disadvantage as their is to everything. We could still have the electoral college, but whoever gets the most votes should be president even if you lose the electoral vote. But then the question is that the other states' votes would not count. The thing also with the electoral college is that places like california have 55 votes and utah has only 4 so other states still have less of an advantage even with the electoral college. The reason you see these small vote states go for bush is because not many people vote in that area. When you get to the end of it you have to go based on who won the most votes and not the electoral votes. The people's vote to me seems more important than some small town not seeing the candidate. You don't see states like idaho getting to see the candidate either way. But as far as small towns, the candidate would have to visit because not everyone in the big cites are going to vote for you.

So you do need those small towns to still go after to get the vote. And also small town voters have issues to and you need them to vote so you can have a chance to win. And big city people may see it negative of you to not visit small towns. In my state, the candidate only goes to chicago, you dont see the candidate visiting other towns. So even with the electoral vote, the states would still have their biggest city getting to see the candidate. So you basically still have to do the same with or without the electoral vote.

What I was saying about the 1 country thing was that it is for voting. I do believe in states rights, but it is the most votes get the presidency. Without states you wouldn't have senators or congressman. The government would be disorganized. We are 50 states but 1 country. Each state needs to make their own laws and taking that away I think hurts our country. I was using the 1 country thing as a philosophical thing, I wasn't trying to make something against the states. We are 1 country because we need to be unified, not divided. Thats what I mean by 1 country.

My conclusion is that im just saying the person with more votes wins period. The electoral college can take that away as it almost did in 2000. Because it can make even a county to decide our president rather than a whole country deciding that. We the people decide and a city doesn't decide because that assumption is wrong and small towns make a difference.
Reply #8 Top
The thing about that is, then every candidate would focus their campaign on the largest populated areas (i.e. New York City and California). That means all their policies and issues would be ONLY related to those areas. This leaves the agricultural and rural areas at a major loss. You also won't get candidates based on their ideas but rather geographical roots (i.e. why would the dems or gop pick someone from idaho when a less talented guy from NYC could get the NY votes). Catering to the majority just doesnt work, you need to also allow the minorities (farmers, etc.) have a say in things too.
Reply #9 Top
What if a revised system was developed, where the % who voted determined how many electoral votes you would get from that state. Let's say the bar was set at a state being worth 100% of its current electoral votes if 70% of the population voted in the election... with the total decreasing as its citizens show their apathy.

If hypothetically speaking, 10% of the population in the state of California voted, then perhaps their electoral votes would only be worth 50-60% of what its currently worth, while a state like Arizona had an 75% turnout, which would mean that all its electoral votes would be used in determining a president.

I think a system like that, while a bit complicated, would perhaps more accurately reflect the will of the country, and also encourage voting.
Reply #10 Top
Historyishere, yes it may encourage voting yet it may not encourage voting. Yes we do need a better system. If this upcoming election is won by bush who I think is not popular among voters, if he wins because of this electoral college and kerry has the most votes, then I better see Kerry in that white house. If Bush wins period i will feel emotionally sad but if he wins legitimately unlike 2000, then somehow the people who voted got who the majority wanted. Voting is important and yes if everybody above 18 in this country voted, yes we would get who the people feel who they want. I just feel like the people don't like who they have but refuse to vote. So therefore Bush would most likely get in. Especially young people are so turned off by politics, they don't give a crap. Im too young to vote but I cant wait until I am 18. You need to learn about politics to be influenced to vote and the more that are educated the more likely the people WILL ACTUALLY DECIDE WHO THEY WANT FOR PRESIDENT.
Reply #11 Top
Well, after 1824, 1876, and 1888, three elections where the winner of the popular vote did not end up as president, the system still didn't change, and I don't really see it changing any time soon.

Now before election night in 2000, it was believed by many that Bush would win the popular vote, and Gore would win the Electoral college... would you have been more comfortable with Bush claiming the office under those circumstances?
Reply #12 Top
But gore won the popular vote and bush won the electoral college with the help of the supreme court. What still bothers me is that they chose to count the votes then the republicans made them not count the votes. They were afraid that gore really won. If they were confident that they won why didnt they let every vote count to see if Bush really won. Instead of Katherine Harris who was on Bush's side announce that he won when all votes were not counted. If Gore won the electoral college, according to the rules he would be in the white house right now. So i would be happy with Gore winning but if Bush had the popular vote he would have won. But according to today it is the electoral vote which can make a loser win when the winner would lose unfortunately.
Reply #13 Top
Here is the problem with doing away with the Electoral College, which seems for the most part addressed above, but I will try to reiterate it into as clear and precise as possible.

When the nation was founded they had a continental congress, in fact this was the second major congress, the first was the one that founded the Articles of Confederation, which gave the states too much power, and the Federal Government too little power. So they reconvened and came up with the Constitution, which despite some flaws, was and still is a very well written document that outlines a government both state and federal and how it should be run, except for the part about slaves and how they should be counted in overall populace count, which was gotten rid of by the first Republican President Abraham Lincoln or at least the ground work was laid by him, even though all the emanication Proclamation only freed slaves in the slave states, but I am getting off topic here.

The Electoral College was designed, keep with me now, for one reason in mind, still with me, and that was so that one state could not rule over other states, i.e. New York ruling over all 49, but your saying no, that can't be, because more people support so and so, well, what about the rest of the people, do their states count less because they have less people? Should we just ignore all state governments and give all power to Federal? So, in order to keep from one state ever deciding on who is president, they decided on the Electoral College, which gives all states no matter what their size, a voice (No Taxation without Representation, cough). The Federal President cannot be decided by one state but by the majority of states, just like a Constitutional Amendment, which takes 2/3 of all states to ratify into an amendment, BUT to be fair to states who have larger populations, they gave that state more electoral votes, so that even though each state has one voice, that state's voice is a heavier one than a smaller neighbor state, i.e. Connecticut, and Rhode Island. All in all, despite candidates losing popular votes but when electoral votes is more a strategy to their campaigning, and may seem unfair but that is how it is, change it to Popular vote, which by the way to happen would once again take the ratification of 2/3 of all states, would just not happen, every state that does not possess the population size of New York and California would be against cause their voice would not be heard in that system.

Hope that clears up some of your confusion on it, and realize despite it's flaws, that the Electoral College was one hell of good idea to give each state a sort of equal standing with other states. I felt the same way like you did, but back in '93 before I learned better, that the Electoral College was bad because they gave us a President Clinton, which for our national security brought us way down in security wise.

As for Bush stealing the supposed election, he did not, if anything what sickens me to no living end, the number of United States Soldiers, from Active Duty to Reserve to National Guard, who did not have their votes counted, due to that the military as whole is conservative, from Buck Private to Most Generals, but with Generals you never know what they are thinking, and sometimes neither do they. At least 1500 National Guardsmen from the wonderful state of Florida were called on surprise maneuvers and did not get to vote in the election unless they already turned in a absentee ballot, which most if not all did not, because it was a last second thing, which from serving with the United States Army for 2 years, can and does happen, but still kind of strange for something like that to happen unless someone wanted it too, most soldiers I meet do vote, because as we serve, we recognize every freaking right we get and take advantage of everyone.

I gotten to the point as long as are soldiers if dieing are dieing for a noble cause befitting the United States of America, and whatever President is good for that cause, is good by me, soldiers die, we knew that, when you VOLUNTEER you always know that could be more of fact of life than being a civilian after all that is a part of our DUTY, to live and die for America, going wherever Uncle Sam commands us, as long as the cause is just, our resolve shall stay unwavering. WE VOLUNTEERED TO PUT OUR LIFE ON THE LINE SO THAT OTHERS COULD BE FREE NOT JUST AMERICA, BUT HUMANS EVERYWHERE, the motto of the Green Berets is appropriate "De Oppresso Liber" (To liberate the oppressed). Granted we will bitch and moan about going to hellholes and doing the job, but that's just natural, hell we bitch about doing P.T. (Physical Training), doing manuvers, etc. That's because we are humans, and we are doing our DUTY, but heck only certain people LOVE to trounce through the mud for 30 Miles, just to shoot a couple of magazines, than camp in the mud. Sorry, about all the military commentary, but I guess I got more brainwashed than I thought.

Well I think I typed more than my fill, sorry if I ranted about the military, I just care about Military personnel and making sure they get their say.
Reply #14 Top
The thing about that is, then every candidate would focus their campaign on the largest populated areas (i.e. New York City and California). That means all their policies and issues would be ONLY related to those areas. This leaves the agricultural and rural areas at a major loss. You also won't get candidates based on their ideas but rather geographical roots (i.e. why would the dems or gop pick someone from idaho when a less talented guy from NYC could get the NY votes). Catering to the majority just doesnt work, you need to also allow the minorities (farmers, etc.) have a say in things too.


Just for the record, they already do this.

In 1992, I wanted to work on the Clinton campaign (temporary insanity, I swear). The problem is, I lived in Oklahoma. There WAS NO Clinton campaign in Oklahoma; the powers that be conceded it to Bush.
Reply #15 Top
Of course, when you concede the little states, then you can end up with the Rutherford B. Hayes syndrome. Numbers sometimes kill.
Reply #16 Top
The main problem with the electoral college in my view is not that it allocates votes according to state size, but that it is entirely up to the electors who they decide to give those votes to. At the moment and in the past they have done as the people have voted, but can anyone be sure that this will continue? The electoral college is decidedly undemocratic and a legacy of the aristocratic past.
Reply #17 Top


Reply #12 By: dubz - 8/14/2004 1:12:37 AM
But gore won the popular vote and bush won the electoral college with the help of the supreme court. What still bothers me is that they chose to count the votes then the republicans made them not count the votes. They were afraid that gore really won. If they were confident that they won why didnt they let every vote count to see if Bush really won. Instead of Katherine Harris who was on Bush's side announce that he won when all votes were not counted. If Gore won the electoral college, according to the rules he would be in the white house right now. So i would be happy with Gore winning but if Bush had the popular vote he would have won. But according to today it is the electoral vote which can make a loser win when the winner would lose unfortunately.


Whine, whine, whine. Gore won, you swear he did, so it must be true.

WRONG.

Gore lost.

You want to know why? Check Tennessee. His own home state. He lost it.

You want to claim that Florida was stolen. How about the heavily Republican northern/western section of that state that was told by the network morons that the state had already gone to Gore, no Bush, no Gore before they could finish voting there (since a good portion of the population there falls into a different time zone than the rest of the state).

Oh, I forgot, it's because voters that were not supposed to vote had their votes not counted, even if they could vote.

Ooops, sorry for you, the democrats weren't able to change those rules as easily as they were able to challenge hundreds of military votes.


Again, you show how obvious it is that you hate Bush and want to cry because you know he WON and your party lost the last presidential election.


NEWS FLASH - Bush won because he had more electoral votes, which was because he concentrated his electioneering in the areas that would get him the most votes.

The exact same thing would happen if you did away with the electoral college. The only difference is that more promises would be made that would result in even more hate for either candidate. (Example: Bush wins because he promises religious followers that he'll ban Abortion and all forms of birth control, or Gore wins because he promises to raise taxes on the wealthy {who, by the way, he'd have to define as anyone making more than $40,000 per year, but that is a different story})


Again, our founding fathers saw the potentials for abuse in the system and did their best to protect all citizens from the tyranny of the masses.


For further example of the stupidity of your arguments:

Back in the 1950s a majority of the citizens in the country were in favor of SEPARATE BUT EQUAL. Hell, one highly placed senator (from West Virginia) still refuses to say he abhors those policies (considering he's still get his Grand Klansman colors in his house somewhere, it's not a surprise).

Would you have left the majority to rule so they could oppress the minorities in this country?


Would you have the majority of the citizens that favor "right to life" outlaw abortion, even if they can only win a majority by one vote?


It's nice to see you thinking, it's just sad to see you so burning with hatred for a President that has done the best he could, who WON the last election and likely will win again.


Go back to the drawing board and try again.
Reply #18 Top


Reply #12 By: dubz - 8/14/2004 1:12:37 AM
But gore won the popular vote and bush won the electoral college with the help of the supreme court. What still bothers me is that they chose to count the votes then the republicans made them not count the votes. They were afraid that gore really won. If they were confident that they won why didnt they let every vote count to see if Bush really won. Instead of Katherine Harris who was on Bush's side announce that he won when all votes were not counted. If Gore won the electoral college, according to the rules he would be in the white house right now. So i would be happy with Gore winning but if Bush had the popular vote he would have won. But according to today it is the electoral vote which can make a loser win when the winner would lose unfortunately.


Reply #10 By: dubz - 8/14/2004 12:14:59 AM
Historyishere, yes it may encourage voting yet it may not encourage voting. Yes we do need a better system. If this upcoming election is won by bush who I think is not popular among voters, if he wins because of this electoral college and kerry has the most votes, then I better see Kerry in that white house. If Bush wins period i will feel emotionally sad but if he wins legitimately unlike 2000, then somehow the people who voted got who the majority wanted. Voting is important and yes if everybody above 18 in this country voted, yes we would get who the people feel who they want. I just feel like the people don't like who they have but refuse to vote. So therefore Bush would most likely get in. Especially young people are so turned off by politics, they don't give a crap. Im too young to vote but I cant wait until I am 18. You need to learn about politics to be influenced to vote and the more that are educated the more likely the people WILL ACTUALLY DECIDE WHO THEY WANT FOR PRESIDENT.



I'm replying to both at the same time....

First, if Bush wins - regardless of where and how - then he should be called MR. PRESIDENT or President Bush.

Not Mr. Bush, as the lefty media tries to do (unlike "President Clinton" as they continue to do, instead of former President Clinton, etc.)

Second, you better go back and research Florida again.

It's obvious that the hatred burns with-in you. You'd make a great Sith you silly Padawan.


Like I said, go back and research Florida again. Every major news organization did. You know what is sad for you??! NO MATTER WHAT, unless the votes were counted in a very meticulous and particular way, Gore lost Florida no matter how many votes the mystics there tried to devine from the pieces of paper that were missing chads, had small blemishes, or anything else.

The consensus was that Gore could only win if the votes were recounted throughout the state (which is something he didn't ask for) and only if enough Republican votes were not gained along the way. When all of those votes were recounted throughout the state, the count got close, but Bush still won.


Again, you can cry because you've lived for almost 4 years under a Bush presidency, but you should slow down and think about the alternatives -- even if Michael Moore himself had been in office (hah! fat chance, and fat boy that is) 9-11 was likely to happen. The economy was going to hit a soft patch because Alan Greenspan was bound and determined to stop inflation even if there wasn't sufficient evidence that it was really a problem. Investors had foolishly invested in companies where they could speculate about future profits, and then they suddenly had changed their minds and started demanding profits from companies that were building for the long haul. In some cases, we had CEOs that took advantage of lax rules that were never changed during 8 years of Clinton-Gore, and because of it, we got the Enron, Worldcom, Tyco and many, many others that showed how well we were taken advantage of.

Wake up and smell the roses and take off the blinders.
Reply #19 Top
terpfan1980, not that you're not entitled to arrogance and an opinion, but it might be nice to only display one at a time, preferably the latter.

For everyone:

I have a hypothetical question: would it be possible to require presidential candidates to go to each state at least once if we did away with the electoral college? And what president wants to admit he's not coming to Idaho, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Alaska, and other low populus states beacuse he doesn't care about the number of votes they have? That wouldn't go over so well in the PR scheme....
Reply #20 Top
Reply #19 By: Angloesque - 8/14/2004 9:53:09 PM
terpfan1980, not that you're not entitled to arrogance and an opinion, but it might be nice to only display one at a time, preferably the latter.

For everyone:

I have a hypothetical question: would it be possible to require presidential candidates to go to each state at least once if we did away with the electoral college? And what president wants to admit he's not coming to Idaho, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Alaska, and other low populus states beacuse he doesn't care about the number of votes they have? That wouldn't go over so well in the PR scheme....


Angloesque - you are entitled to your opinions and arrogance as much as I am

Your hypothetical is fine, but it still leaves major problems (like the ones I noted above). There are still times when the majority shouldn't rule (many times actually).

Generally speaking, we get better government when the majority doesn't rule and instead we get a consensus by having both of our current majority parties working together to give us something that was derived from compromise.

The system we have was designed with many checks and balances, and it has worked well for 225+ (almost 230) years because of it. I expect it'll live on long after we are dead and people have long forgotten about this site, and these discussions.

God bless Jefferson and Madison and the rest of the founding fathers for the work they did so long ago. It really is amazing when compared to so many other systems that have come and gone in the rest of the world.
Reply #21 Top
But doesn't the majority already rule? NY, CA, FL, TX, and other populus states already have more votes than the ones I noted. Proportionately it would be a great deal wider were it a popular vote but you can't deny it's already there.
Reply #22 Top
And what president wants to admit he's not coming to Idaho, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Alaska, and other low populus states beacuse he doesn't care about the number of votes they have? That wouldn't go over so well in the PR scheme....


again, this already happens with the system as is.

I'm mixed on this one, but I feel there's something wrong with a system where entire states are discarded because they're not strategically important.
Reply #23 Top
Gideon, Bush did campaign in OR and WA, both of which are more liberal than swing. I can't remember seeing a Dem in ID or MT in a long time, though I've not always been interested in politics and may not have noticed.
Reply #24 Top

Presidents should represent the nation, as a whole, not just urban coastal areas.

And it would greatly increase the corruption in elections as both sides did shady things to maximize (ahem) "turn out" in urban areas.  I'd rather have our elections decided in states such as Ohio and Florida and not based on turn out in New York and Los Angelas.

The US is a large place with a lot of different concerns. Concerns that may seem totally foreign to the bulk of the population living on the coastal areas. The electoral system is, by no means, perfect but I prefer it to a system of weighing up the biomatter on both sides.

Reply #25 Top
I must know if all this is stemmed out of actual concern for elections, or a seething hatred for President Bush? If you can answer that question honestly, then your opinion can be wieghed fairly. But if your opinions on why the electoral college is a failure is based purely on anger and emotions, then there is no way to have a logical conversation with anyone who feels this way. For in almost all cases logic and emotion must be seperated, because it does not matter what you feel the facts speak for themselves. And the facts are plain and simple.
Through the many investigations, accusations, and finger pointing there is an underlying truth. That is this, George W. Bush won the election. No matter how many times there was recounts or disputes over hanging chads, the President won. If you really want to get down and dirty he won by an even larger number of votes than was declared, because of the military vote that was not counted for various reasons. And we must also point out that the electoral college has worked for as long as our country has existed. It will continue to exist as long as we do, because in the end it is the best way. Besides there is one more reason why the electoral college is the rule on voting.
We are a Republic, not a democracy. In a democracy the majority rules on all voting. In a republic you vote for a represenative that then votes for you. The electoral college is a group of represenatives that we vote for in a sense. It is a fail safe that the founding fathers instituted and should be praised for.