thatoneguyinslc

Join Date 07/2004

O'Reilly vs Moore (a tale of two idiots)

A battle of wits between two guys that are out of ammo.

There have been many posts in the blogs today concerning the now famous debate between Michael "butterball" Moore and Bill "sieg heil!" O'Reilly. I watched the so called "debate" between the two of them and came to the conclusion that neither of them won.

Moore made one point that i agree with. I do agree that in the end it was Bush that made the mistake of getting us into the quagmire that is the war in Iraq. I totally disagreed with him when he tried to turn it by saying that Bush should be held responsible for the 900+ deaths of our soldiers so far. It is a presidents job (wether he was actually elected or not) to make those decisions. We do have an all volunteer armed forces, and they do know that there is a good chance they might get hurt or even die in a war. I have nothing but admiration and respect for anyone willing to do this. My dad was a marine officer for 23 years, and fought in 2 wars. This is the life they choose....willingly. So Moores arguement about "would you be willing to sacrifice your child for Fallujah" is a total crock. I do hold Bush responsible for using second hand intelligence to justify it. Thats just bad judgement on his part. But then again wasn't Vietnam also a trumped up war? We found out later that the Gulf of Tonkin incident was completely fabricated at the time, and how many of our troops died? 57,000? War is a dirty dirty business folks. I hate it. Sometimes it is justified, like in the case of WW2.

And what the HELL is Oberfuhrer O'reilly doing at the democratic convention anyways?? Thats like asking Tupac Shakur to do commentary at a KKK rally. You're never gonna get unbiased reporting from O'reilly when it comes to democrats. O'reilly is at best a hack. All he ever does is sit there and badger people and talk over them, and try discredit them etc. etc.etc. Anybody ever see the CSPAN tape of him going after Al Franken at the book fair? It proves my theory that hes just a big blowhard bully, and watching him scream "shut the hell up!" and pout made my month!

In closing my point is that you have to take into consideration that both of them have extreme points of view, and that neither one of them is very realistic. I say they should have a steel cage battle to the death. then we wouldnt have to listen to either one of these idiots.

Oh yeah...did i mention that the winner has to take on Teresa Heinz Kerry in a folding chair battle royal?

Brian

P.S. For the record, i did like Farenheit 911....LOL

democrat

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I didn't watch the convention (only bits and pieces of Edwards acceptance speech) but I have ready Bill O'Reily's "The No Spin Zone" as well as several books by Michael Moore. All I can say is I agree with you completely! I think they are the personification of the extreme of either party. All the current political propaganda from both sides would do even Joseph Goebbels proud!

And if you think O'Reily is a screaming lunatic, check out Sean Hannity (of Bush News..err...um I mean Fox News Network fame) or listen to Rush Limbaugh. They scream at their guests and callers as if these people had just insulted their mommas (yo' mama so fat...). Check out this website (if you haven't already). It is a hilarious take on the right vs. the left. Happy trails and on to the polls!

http://www. jibjab.com

P.S.- You bring the steel cage, I'll bring the popcorn and milk duds!

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I have to say one thing. Not all conservative commentators are bad. I actually like Tucker Carlson. Hes a very honest guy. I have seen him on many occasions agree with Paul Begala on Crossfire. Novak is the devil of course...

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I agree completely. There are extremes no matter what you look at. The ones that irritate me are the ones that scream and rant and rave. I want to hear calm, well thought out, well researched political discussion and debate. If I wanted to hear two people scream at each other without either party making a coherent argument, I'd just throw my parents in a room together.

"He who establishes his argument by noise and command shows that his reason is weak."
-Michel de Montaigne

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I think Al franken said it best when he titled his book "Rush Limbaugh is a big fat idiot!". He and people like Hannity are a disgrace to journalists and commentators. Not for their beliefs though. This is America (apologies to anyone reading this who isnt from the US) and they have a right to their beliefs, even if you don't believe in what they are saying. (like me for example) But screaming, yelling, baiting, and browbeating is hardly skillful and insightful journalism. There are liberal commentators (none as prominent as Rush and Hannity) that are guilty of the same tactics, and they are just as bad.

I did see something during the Democratic Convention that really caught me off guard in a pleasant way. Joe Scarborough was there for MSNBC, and for the first time since i have seen him on tv, he was not his usual "Hannity-lite". He was actually being a nice guy! His observations were unbiased, he was civil, and actually made some very keen observations that i agreed with. I kept thinking "who IS this guy and where is Joe?"

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We do have an all volunteer armed forces, and they do know that there is a good chance they might get hurt or even die in a war

Have you seen these kids. I'm not entirely sure they know how to tie up their shoelaces, let alone understand the full ramifications of war and mortality. A couple of years ago these kids would have believed the world of pokemon to be a plausible and existent one. The way they're strung into service does not give them all the facts and realities of what service in a time of war implies and neither does the news or films. All of them start of believing in the glory and not the death, the medals and not the coffins. Military recruitment seems to entail praying on the weak to make the nation strong, place them behind machines and give them the illusion of immortality, when the corpses start floating in shut the cameras off.

Sorry about the long rant.

Marco

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No problemo Marco... I agree with you on your point. But its not like the US Military rolled up in a truck and shanghaied them. They did volunteer for military service, and with that, goes the reality that wherever thyre sent. That's where theyre gonna be. Regardless if they understand why they are there. There has to be a way to prepare them for what lies ahead.

I also agree about how the military markets warfare. It is a horrible horrible thing to watch your friends die and have to kill someone else, but the military has been doing this since the end of Vietnam, when nobody in their right mind wanted to go in and the draft was cancelled. I really think that as part of the recruitment process they should show these kids actual combat footage, and all the horror. Kind of like when you take drivers education (anybody ever see "Blood on the Highway"?)

Unfortunately our society is caught up in the John Wayne mentality of war being a glorious thing. It is not, has not ever been, and will not ever be glamorous. Death is ugly.

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I, too viewed Scarboriugh as a different person; in the company of others of central or left perceptions, he probably toned down. Also the fact that he works for MSNBC and not FOX gives him some semblance of order. As for O'Reilly and Moore, both are extremists that don't derserve the attention they get, which is indicative of the masses that always are in search of easy, blunt answers.

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2422

How is O'Reilly an extremist?

I think it's pretty lame to put O'Reilly in the same category as Moore. O'Reilly doesn't make up conspiracy theories. At worse, O'Reilly is loud and obnoxious. But he's not an extremist.

Sean Hannity is pretty far right wing. But not as far right as Moore is left. Moore's off the deep end. If you want to find someone on the right that's really that extreme, you have to find people like Ann Coulter.

I think some of you need to actually watch these shows before you just spew out opinions. I can't see how anyone who has watched Bill O'Reilly can possibly call him an extremist. I can't think of a single position he has that one would consider "extreme".

It's been my experience that left wingers tend to think EVERYONE is a right wing nut if they don't hold all the correct views. O'Reilly isn't even particularly conservative. He think taxes are high and objects to anti-religious groups trying to eliminate things like the cross from the city of LA's seal. These aren't extremist views. Particularly since he's anti-death penalty and supports gay marriages (or at least civil unions). Heck, he may even be pro-choice on abortion.

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O'Reilly is a conservative, a bully and a liar. My point is that Moore and O'reilly have their own agendas, and are far from center of either party. Moore is very far on the liberal side. He also tends to overdramatize, put spin on issues, is combative by nature, and in my opinion "annoying". The problem is that people like you classify all dems as "liberals". Thats like me sayng Arnold Schwarzenegger is a neo conservative. I watch O'reilly , Hannity, Scarborough, and on Occassion, even listen to Rush. So dont accuse people otherwise if you dont have a clue what programs they watch.

I'm not a liberal by any means. I'm definately in the moderate catagory.

Hannity is as extremist neo-conservative. I actually sat in a lecture he gave last time he was in town. It gave me the willies just listening to it.

Did you watch the "debate" during the convention?

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"Also the fact that he works for MSNBC and not FOX gives him some semblance of order."

...and you guys say WE are easily wooed into submission...

Anyway, the COO of Newscorp (Peter Chernin) was the lead speaker at the last big Kerry rally. How would you spin that? If FoxNews is telling people what they want to hear, you think MSNBC isn't?

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

thatoneguy writes:

O'Reilly is a conservative, a bully and a liar

Then you immediately say:

The problem is that people like you classify all dems as "liberals".

Most conservatives would not consider O'Reilly a conservative. He's conservative on two issues he's loud about: Taxes and Traditionalism. He's liberal on quite a number of issues as well.

Not everyone who isn't a bleeding heart is a conservative. There is a big gulf in between. O'reilly may be loud and obnoxious but he's not an extremist and he's not particularly conservative.

By contrast, Moore is quite preresentative of the left wing of the US (and internationally). You don't see Bush running around making a big stink about things O'Reilly said. But just today Kerry was using F9/11 as ammunition against Bush. Moore is a registered Democrat.

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Draginol

Join Date 03/2001

+137

The whole Foxnews is ra ra Bush is ridiculous. Foxnews is no more right wing than CNN is left wing. Which means I think Foxnews tilts a little to the right but no more than CNN (or ABC or CBS) tilt to the left.

It never ceases to amaze me how intolerant the left is of views that don't mirror their own.

Let's go over the FoxNews prime time line up:

8pm: O'Reilly. He's only "conservative" if you're so liberal that anyone who isn't blatantly liberal comes across as conservative. He's opinionated and loud but he's all over the map politically.

9pm: Hannity and Colmes. Hannity is extreme right. Colmes is liberal. They fight it out on the show.

10pm: I forgot her name but definitely not a conservative.

MSBC has Chris Mathews who used to work for Democratic campaigns. I had to watch these shows many many hours for research in The Political Machine. Most of these guys aren't super left wing or right wing (Except the shows where there's a panel). The difference is that conservatives have had to put up with hosts who skew to the left on almost every issue for years. Listen to NPR some time or PBS or ABC or CNN or CBS. All of them tilt to the left and there's not just massive evidence to support that but any fair minded person is going to pick up on it. It's not extreme but it's there.

Yet, Fox news comes out with views that are to the right of these places and the supposedly tolerant liberals freak out about it. O'Reilly has been trashing Bush about the US/Mexican border for 2 years now. He's slammed Bush on the constitutional amendment that would ban gay marriages. He's all over Bush for his post-Iraq war policies. O'Reilly is not a Bush fan. But I think he's fed up with the extreme left so he tends to rag on them a bit mroe since, as has become apparent, the left BBQs anyone who doesn't toe the line.

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BakerStreet brings up a very good point here. Chernin was a speaker for Kerry. But MSNBC is not the liberal outlet he makes it out to be. If anything i think they are the most unbiased of the three major cable news outlets. but, in my opinion Fox is definately to the right, and CNN is definately to the left. I never said O'Reilly is an extremist, what i meant in my original post, is when i called him "Oberfuhrer" i was referring to the browbeating tactics that he uses on his show. He is a conservative folks... i dont care how much you scream and shout otherwise. As my dear departed Grandma used to say "proof is in the pudding" It is a well known fact that he lies repeatadly. That's not to say i think conservatives lie all the time either. He's not from the "hard scrabble" upbringing that he claims. He's not a registered independant. He is a registered republican. His stance on right to life is at best clouded based on the many articles that i have read that he contributed to. For gods sakes people...He used to anchor Inside Edition! Talk about a lack of credibility! And lied about receiving awards that never were presented to them until he left the show! I think he has proved that he is disreputable based on stuff he is quoted as saying!

There is a reason Bush 2.0 has to defend himself against Michael Moore. Despite the fact he is a showman, and he took a shitload of liberties in his movie, there is quite a bit of truth in what he says. (I hate him almost as much as i hate Bush 2.0, but i have to give the devil his due.) And that kills you conservative types. Just admit he makes a few points, call him the asshole that he is and move on.

Now Drag...when you talk about Hannity and Colmes I, (and you're not gonna like this) have to defer to Al Franken when he calls that show HANNITY and colmes. He as not as liberal as they make him out to be. Alan Colmes used to be quite the liberal warrior. He is there to make the network appear unbiased. You want to see a liberal who hasnt sold out that speaks the true liberal opinion, flip over to CNN and watch Paul Begala. But then again, anyone who differs from the conservative viewpoint nowadays is branded a liberal. See? it works both ways.

I will never ever understand what happened to my political persuasion. The moderate. Regardless of the party. there are a few out there, but not enough to make a big difference anymore. It just goes to show how polarized our country is. maybe we should just split it down the middle and go our seperate ways. The liberals get the east, conservatives get the west, and all the mods get sent to Alaska. Which is how isolated most of us feel.

And Drag? Its nice to know ya let me off the hook. We may not agree, but i do like arguing with ya. Maybe we should get our own show. You call Rupert Murdoch, and i'll call whats his name @ Time Warner!

And i think it's Greta Van Sustren you are thinking about. I could be wrong though.

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It is amazing to me how defensive conservatives are with respect to their beloved wingers--angels with wings.Yet the left has to accept that it wears horns. Moreover, the article tried to be "fair and balanced," don't forget its premise was a tale of two idiots. God forbid that O'reilly is thrown into the garbage pail with Moore.

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THANK YOU STEVEN!!!! The rest of you folks catch that?

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