My mom could have gotten welfare if she'd wanted to. She actually made LESS working full time than she would have received via welfare.

But you said on a different thread that hard work alone was enough to pull people out of poverty. Say it isn't so Joe DeMaggio ... perhaps the problem of poverty is deeper than just hard work? See my rantings over here Link for a little deeper insight into a major component of the whole poverty issue.

BTW that's not to say people shouldn't work just cause welfare gets them more. I applaud and agree with your mom's approach, insofar as you've talked about it.

But your "escape from poverty" had a lot to do with seeing a fine example working hard every day, and having above average intelligence (inferred by your college degree, particularly in your chosen field). Most poor children don't have the benefit of both of those attributes ...

JW

Yes, and hard work DID get her out of poverty. 

The poverty issue is related to work. Very few people who work full time are in poverty. That is a statistical fact.

Working full time is working full time. That means 40 hours a week whether that's landscaping, ditch digging, or working at McDonalds.  If you work full time, you won't be in poverty. It gets more complicated if you have dependents.  My mom only had 1 dependent and she didn't have additional children that she couldn't afford.

I don't know how many actual poor people you've met but I've NEVER met a single poor person that worked full time or didn't have multiple dependents.  I have little sympathy for an able bodied man or woman who cranks out children he or she can't afford.  Nor do I have sympathy for the able bodied man or woman who simply doesn't work full time but cries poverty.

What makes the United States special is that your efforts can lift you as high as your talent can take you. There's nothing holding an able bodied person down but their own stupidity or laziness.

Have you ever worked for minimum wage in a large city and tried to pay rent, utilities, food, insurance, and all of the enormous costs that it takes to raise kids? I have and it sucks! But it didnt stop me from bettering myself, getting an education and upgrading my life. It is true that some people milk the system for everything that they can get. But its also true thatsome of the rich use every goddamn loophole, tax shelter, offshore cayman bank account, and any other little trick they can pull to keep from paying their fair share. This is why the flat tax is a good idea. No matter what you earn, YOUR TAX BURDEN IS THE SAME PERCENTAGE AS THE GUY NEXT TO YOU.

Lets face it folks, there will always be the haves and have nots in this country of ours. Thats just the way life is. Some people are born into it, some earn it, some steal it, and some never have an opportunity to make it. I feel that in some ways we are obligated to take care of our fellow man, with limitations of course. Thats why the welfare system in this country is so messed up. People will always find ways to scam ya if they can, and some who desperately need the help cannot get it because of the forementioned group. There has got to be some way to even it out and truly have ONE AMERICA.

But i dont think Bush 2.0 and his buddies are knocking themselves out to find a solution.

Have you ever worked for minimum wage in a large city and tried to pay rent, utilities, food, insurance, and all of the enormous costs that it takes to raise kids?

So don't live in a large city. Or don't have kids that you can't afford.

But its also true thatsome of the rich use every goddamn loophole, tax shelter, offshore cayman bank account, and any other little trick they can pull to keep from paying their fair share.

Really? Got any proof that any significant number of people do this? The fact is that the rich pay the vast majority of taxes in this country. And they pay significantly higher percentages than the poor. Saying that the rich do not pay their fair share is rediculous.

Lets face it folks, there will always be the haves and have nots in this country of ours.

There has got to be some way to even it out and truly have ONE AMERICA.

Which is it? Will we always have two americans, or is there a way to have one?

Brad,

When you say "able-bodied" does that mean, that if the body is OK, but the mind is mushy ... what are your thoughts then? I've discussed some of these problems that the poor face, over here .... Link ... essentially, many poor suffer from learning disabilities and sometimes mental illness. What's your world-view of that? Sympathy? No sympathy?

JW

"essentially, many poor suffer from learning disabilities and sometimes mental illness. What's your world-view of that? Sympathy? No sympathy?"

I've lived and worked in one of the poorest areas in America, and I don't see it, Jay. Those who did seem to lag behind intellectually actually seemed much better suited for local employment, whereas the more intelligent tended to reject the "work-a-day" jobs that were available in the area. I think, if anything, it is an underestimation of the employment pool in these areas, combined with an apathy to educate these populations, that causes a lot of the poverty.

Sadly, that is spurred on by the very mischaracterization you are perpetuating. People don't bother to promote much post-grad education efforts into these areas, and as a result businesses that require more education tend to overlook this areas. It is changing slowly, but it is held back by the "fly-over America" mentality that ignores the fact that some of our best and brightest have come from the poorest of circumstances.

Actually CS Guy...i can...I worked for an accounting firm who handles quite a number of wealthy peoples money. If you only knew the lengths that they go to, to get out of paying up it would make you sick.

As far as living in a large city, i live in Salt Lake City, if you had any clue you would know that it is one of the cheapest cities in America as far as cost of living goes. I have lived in other cities that cost a hell of a lot more.

And as far as me not having kids i cant afford...well i have ONE, and hes going to inherit the burden that all of the tax breaks for the weathiest 2% of this country are racking up . thats really f****ed up too.

And just so you know. I make plenty to take care of my own at this time in my life. I never asked anyone for anything, and never will.

You also take issue with my point of saying there will always be haves and have nots. What i meant is that maybe someday we can finally figure out a way that we can reduce the number of people that dont have anything, and maybe give em a little hope. Sorta like the old saying "give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish and he can feed himself for a lifetime" Ther will always be deadbeats that will try to milk the system. And that sucks too. It takes away from those who need help.

I have no problem with someone who has a truckload of money. America is a country that prides itself on the belief that you can get to that level if you work for it. My problem is with the people who dont feel like they have to pay their fair share. It does exist, it IS quite common in the top 2%, and anyone who doesnt believe that is either naive....or a complete idiot.

As far as living in a large city, i live in Salt Lake City, if you had any clue you would know that it is one of the cheapest cities in America as far as cost of living goes. I have lived in other cities that cost a hell of a lot more. And as far as me not having kids i cant afford...well i have ONE, and hes going to inherit the burden that all of the tax breaks for the weathiest 2% of this country are racking up . thats really f****ed up too.

You are the one that brought these issues up as a problem towards maintaining a certain standard of living. You are the one that said, "Kids," and not "Kid." And do you know the cost of living in every city? Why the personal attacks here?

It does exist, it IS quite common in the top 2%, and anyone who doesnt believe that is either naive....or a complete idiot.

Again, show some proof if you are going to make such a sweeping statement. Your anecdotal say-so is useless, and anyone who doesn't realize that is either naive or a complete idiot (and ellipses are three periods, not four). Maybe your firm just does business with a high percentage of unscrupulous people. What is the average percentage that these people pay in taxes?

Are these people performing illegal acts? If not, then I don't blame them one bit for trying to retain control of as much of their money as possible. I'm sure the poor do that as well.

Well first of all, most pay between 15% and 25% due to sheltering, offshoring can shave up to 6% even more depending on how you structure and move it, (whereas i am taxed at around 30% and the only sheltering i do is an IRA) and i noticed that you feel the need to point out two typos. It just proves that you have no valid arguement and have to resort to such a petty act to feel self important. You are quite the orator, give yourself a big pat on the back. You earned it.

By the way i worked for SmithBarney/Travelers. I no longer do it due to the fact its such a sleazy business and now i work in IT. The pay is better, and routers don't cheat on their taxes. I also travel most of the year, and read newspapers, watch local TV, talk to people, and pay attention. Its not very difficult to establish what the cost of living in different areas of the country.

One last thing...(noticeTHREE this time) Poor folks dont have to hide their money...They dont have any, thats why their poor

And cheating on your taxes is a FELONY. Thats a crime right?

Obama did not talk about two america's... he came from poverty and he was easily the only speaker at the Demo convention (including Kerry) that actually made sense. Of course you could only see him on cable TV. The big three networks weren't showing him. Obama was not liberal enough.

Sadly, that is spurred on by the very mischaracterization you are perpetuating.

I'm not sure what "mischaracterization" I'm perpetuating. Please refer to my article over here Link which gives factual information about their situation.

The mentally ill and the those with learning disabilities are far more likely to live in poverty, to be welfare recipients, etc. But because it's invisible to the naked eye, many people assume there's nothing wrong with these folks. In regards to the learning disabled, they have lots of problems that compound their troubles finding and holding a decent job. Literacy is often low in this group, and they have trouble adapting. I get to see this up front - I talk to parents of those with these type of problems - it's really tough getting them to accept that things have changed. This affects them both on the job, and also when they lose their jobs. In a nutshell, they just don't have what able-minded people would describe as mental toughness (on the whole - OK there's always exceptions), or reasonable mental agility.

When you've been on the front lines seeing these people as kids - as I have - you'd realize that I'm not just talking "through my hat". Unless you lacked the most basic elements of perception, I suspect you'd quickly begin to see why they end up where they do.

JW

And cheating on your taxes is a FELONY. Thats a crime right?

So how many of these people did you report, if you were privy to such damning information?

You are quite the orator, give yourself a big pat on the back. You earned it.

This is not oratory. You might want to work on that vocabulary.

Well first of all, most pay between 15% and 25% due to sheltering, offshoring can shave up to 6% even more depending on how you structure and move it

And we just take your word for this? Do you have any regional or national research that shows this, or are you just sharing anecdotal figures?

When you say "able-bodied" does that mean, that if the body is OK, but the mind is mushy ... what are your thoughts then? I've discussed some of these problems that the poor face, over here .... Link ... essentially, many poor suffer from learning disabilities and sometimes mental illness. What's your world-view of that? Sympathy? No sympathy?

Depends on the severity of the mental disability. It woudl ahve to be pretty severe though.  I've seen "emotional" disabilities (first hand) used to get on the government dole. Anxiety disorders, for instance, I think are undeserving of government aid.  Those who feel sympathy for thos epeople are certainly free to give to charities.

"I'm not sure what "mischaracterization" I'm perpetuating"

It wasn't your hat I was imagining you talking through. The mischaracterization is that the poor are somehow less intelligent, or that the "poor" is even a cohesive class here. You have no idea how many "kinds" of people are lumped into the "poverty" statistics here, many of them without regard to their actual standard of living or well-being. Folks like you still abuse their numbers to make your points, though.

No matter how politically correct you put it, your argument benefits from the *stereotype* that people who are poor are less intelligent. You perpetuate that stereotype here and in your other article. That sterotype has caused a great amount of pain and is a major road-block in helping the "poor".

I read your other article, and as someone that has lived and worked around the poor every day of my life, I found it unworthy to comment on. Your posts about the American "poor" are akin to the old "three blind men and the elephant" story. You can sit up there and peer at the platonic shadows on the wall, but your arguments are semantic excercises, whereas the people you wield actually have to live here with the results of "social experiments".

It wasn't your hat I was imagining you talking through.

OK BakerS, I think that's far enough. If you can't keep your comments civil, then I'm not going to debate with you any longer. This is nonsense.

Folks like you still abuse their numbers to make your points, though.

What numbers have I abused? Point to them please! WHERE ARE THEY! PLEASE! WHERE???

Sorry, many - BUT NOT ALL - poor, yes, have some major real obstacles to overcome that most folks just don't. Pretending these obstacles don't exist doesn't make it so.

Semantic exercises? I've seen it first hand with my own child, due to a learning disability, which, thank God, has been somewhat reduced. I see it in the children I test - and the ones I work with to help them overcome their learning handicaps. Closing our eyes and saying it ain't so, doesn't make that little wish happen. NO matter how much I wish that were the case.

JW

I get so tired of your senstivities. You say:

"... you'd realize that I'm not just talking "through my hat". Unless you lacked the most basic elements of perception, I suspect you'd quickly begin to see why they end up where they do."

You make an obnoxious post about how I haven't had as much experience with poor children, when I have lived in and around Appalacia all my life, in some of the poorest counties in some of the poorest states in the US. I *was* a poor child, you ass. I doubt your sensitivity to my comments, your "experience" with the poor, and even your sympathy for them. More semantic arguments from the eternal Canadian critic.

I know as much about real poverty as you do, *easily*, thanks. If you are going to be insulted easily, I suggest you check your own tone.

Well, it's one thing if the whole, say, state is poor. This is obviously different than where the poor have concentrated in pockets due to economics (ie housing costs).

And stop worrying about my country of origin so much - I'll comment on whatever the hell I want. This is the internet, man. If you want to stay parochial, then, you should avoid the computer. You might get some wider information that way. BTW almost all of the statistics I quoted were from the US.

JW

PS Given that you both doubt my sincerity - essentially calling me a liar - and refuse to point out the numbers you claim I'm abusing - which effectively makes the charge that I'm lying, I'm unwilling to engage with you in this blog any further. Goodbye.

" nd stop worrying about my country of origin so much - I'll comment on whatever the hell I want."

You can, but you're blowing hot air if you pretend to be authoritative on the subject. You take your experiences in Canada and gild them with pliable US statistics and pretend you have some sort of insight. If you want to talk about Canadian poor and Canadian special needs children by all means do so.

But don't you f*cking dare try and make statements like "When you've been on the front lines seeing these people as kids - as I have - you'd realize..." Your patronizing tone only goes so far, and trying to tell me that I haven't the benefit of your vast experience with the poor makes me a little ill. I worked summers in one of the poorest counties in the nation... at a camp for vacationing rich kids with mental disabilities. I also spent summers tutoring wealthy college students so their GPAs would rise enough to admit them back into the posh schools they had been tossed out of. I have spent time tutoring both rich and poor, and I find no preponderance of intelligence in the wealty.

Fuddle duddle, as PET was once claimed to say.

JW

We should all take a step back and ponder Eswiv's wise words.