waright waright

The only big thing wrong with galciv

The only big thing wrong with galciv

Is that the developers say they "challenge the player without the AI cheating" (not a direct quote but close enough.

Like almost every other game of this type the Computer Races does not even play the same game as the player game.

Now people will say they are just playing by different rules or some such garbage... but what is your definition of cheating then? Its not playing by the same rules... DING DING DING!

Here are some examples of undocumented "different rules"

1) Ability to extort... the computer players have huge ability with this at very low tech, real players have almost none.
2) Ability to pump out 150 cost constructors every other turn with 1 planet at turn 15 for multiple turns without harming long term economy. My best guess at this "advantage" is that it is buying them at the mitrosoft rates without having to pay anything per turn afterwards.
3) Ability to see specials and send constructors to them without a visible ship scouting. You want me to send you save games I will on this one.
4) ability to change social projects and have production count towards the next project (IE if I went back to a save after race X develops a wonder, then buy that wonder out from under them they can magically pop out economic capital instead with no social production loss)
5) ability to send colony ships across the board on a large very early in game.
6) a ton more that are hard to pin down since they come up later in the game.

All this being said I want you to balance your game, pleas please please resend you boasts about the game not cheating, they are not helpful and will hinder your ability to successfully communicate with your player base.

Example:

Player A says "WHAH WHAH WHAH the computer cheats in XYZ way"
Developer B says "we only give the computer player QRS advantages"
Player A says "But they cheat… I can prove it"
Developer B says "you need to learn how to beat the game as it is"

Now no matter how relevant XYZ is wrt balancing Developer B will out of hand reject the whole idea since the word "cheat" was used... so now we have miscommunication and frustration for ZERO reason. Both the Player and the Developer are using the wrong language to get the issue looked at in any meaningfull way. This situation is created by Stardock!

This being said I don’t have any real issue with the game itself; I can handle all the cheats. But calling them something different is silly.

Swallow your pride and admit this game cheats as much if not more than MOO2 so ballancing issues can be just that... ballancing.. not a pissing match between people who say the game cheats and the people who love frogboy so much they would jump off a bridge to defend him from the evil people accusing this game of cheating.

Great Game BTW, makes MOO3 looks like a crackerjack toy (single player wise).
1,218 views 45 replies
Reply #26 Top
Hey, waright I'll give you a tip. If you really want to make a difference, start by reading JavaScout's post about how to suggest changes. Next, post it in the bugreports and back it up with evidence. You said you have a savegame file to prove one of your points, well send it in. Your post comes across more like whining than anything else.

~SDC~
Reply #27 Top
Look, I'm not going to get into an arguemnt about made up accuasations about the AI.

Stuff like "AI puts out 6 constructors in the first 20 turns" or "AI extorting int he first 10 turns" or "can switch social projects with investement being moved to new project" is just nonsense. It doesn't do any of those things.

Look, if you want to believe the AI cheats, fine. It doesn't matter.

Look if it makes you feel good, everytime the AI does anything, assume it's cheating. Assume the game just randomly build anything at any time without any relation.
Reply #28 Top
waright - It is all perception on your part. Knowing the board and the economic advantages have been well stated on this forum and elsewhere adnauseam.

~SDC~
Reply #29 Top
I see what you are saying Waright.

But I disagree with your assumptions.
And it's never nice to assume bad things without allowing benefit of the doubt and a defense by the party involved.

You are seeing things that don't look right and hearing stuff that passes those off.

And it sounds like sugar coating on a cheat/undocumented feature. And you think they should come out and say, the AI is cheating here, here and here. Because we all know and they have said that AIs in most games cheat. Therefore this one does.

Yet, the AI developer continues to insist that there are no cheats being used, except those mentioned to death already. (econ and stellar cartography).

Why would you think he is lying? Because he doesn't want to admit it? I can understand that.

Doesn't make it so.

It could turn out that later we find out that there are some undocumented features, but I'm giving the person who developed the AI the benefit of the doubt.

So going by that standard, when you see something that is happening that doesn't look right, just ask if it is a bug. Simple.

We're trying to help them help us have an enjoyable game. We can't do that by basically calling the AI programmer a liar and a spin doctor.

I want any `undocumented features' to get cleared up as much as anyone else. But they are working hard on this project and they deserve the benefit of having what looks like a cheat being labelled as a bug first.
Reply #30 Top
I have done many games at genius in a 1 opponent game testing the AI, on 1 I saw between turn 10 and 11 (or 11 and 12 depends on how you count turns the computer's treasury go from 1300 to 2200. I have these save games. I asked a friend to post on it since he is much more diplomatic than I. I did not like the responses and while the post was commented on by frogboy he did not answer the question of "is it possible to go from 1300 to 2200bc's on turn 11 without cheating" was totally ignored by him. Now I did not know at the time that the computer knew the board, I had just read it knew where the yellow stars where. Someone in that thread suggested that it was a tribute from a minor. I can live with that answer, although I think it has some balancing ramifications IMO. But the latest post from frogboy kinda rules out that answer ""AI extorting int he first 10 turns"... is just nonsense".

These save games I have, I will send them in if it’s a bug, but the conversations in my friends post did not give me any confidence in stardock.
Reply #31 Top
Ok, brad's pissed. SOMEONE SEND HIM SOME FLOWERS!!!!!!!!! :sniff!: :sniff!: LOL LOL

~SDC~
Reply #32 Top
Now that's a good question waright.

I can understand wanting to know how it was done. But again, the first thought shouldn't be `cheating'.

I'd like to know also how that jump happened. Or at the very least to be told that it was within the bounds of the game rules.
Reply #33 Top
um.. ok, you are a genius, you are noticing 'cheats' MANY other veteran TBS, 4x gamers are missing. Dontcha feel clever? Or perhaps.. you are wrong? Couldn't be that huh?

Aside from the obvious 'see see I toldyaso!' nature of your post.. the point is? As a gamer.. I don't CARE how the AI plays. Computer games MUST cheat if they want to be in any way a challange for a human opponent. As a gamer (and in particular a 4x tbs gamer) I want 2 things from a game I am playing. I want it to be fun, and I want it to be challanging. I didn't care while playing Civilization that the AI was cheating. I prefer a challange, not an honest opponent, at least against the computer.

Take a computer chess game. Does it cheat? Yes, it certainly does. Can YOU think of 1.2 million moves in about 3 minutes? Nope.. no one can. So the computer is given advantages in order for it to be a challange to a human opponent. This is 'cheating'. This is also the only way to make it worth playing.

So aside from your blatant accusations which you can't prove (except the AI having stellar catagraphy, which everyone knew about), your post has no point, imo. If trying to make the devs look bad makes you feel good, enjoy yourself. But all I see is an immature attempt to pump up your own ego with your blathering. :p


fleabitfox
Reply #34 Top
"These save games I have, I will send them in if it’s a bug". Why IF, just send them. You don't know if it is a bug, so let Brad and his team check this. Bug reporting is part of this COMMUNITY, that is people who like this game and want to support improvement of the game. That's what it's all about, isn't it. No further knacking, just do what everybody else does, here, approach the game positive. It deserves it, it has the strongest AI ever made, the best support I've ever seen, the strongest community in game land and a more than willing ear from the developers to our remarks, suggestions and "possible" bug reports.
Reply #35 Top
"Ok, brad's pissed. SOMEONE SEND HIM SOME FLOWERS!!!!!!!!!" :) Nope, but he can have a couple of bourbons from me, to celebrate this great game.

"Take a computer chess game. Does it cheat? Yes, it certainly does. Can YOU think of 1.2 million moves in about 3 minutes? Nope.. no one can. So the computer is given advantages in order for it to be a challange to a human opponent. This is 'cheating'. This is also the only way to make it worth playing.".
LOL Who can better say it in a few words than fleabitfox? That's what it's all about, a CHALLENGING AI, THAT ACTUALLY CAN BEAT YOU AND THAT YOU CAN AJUST TO YOUR OWN PLAYING LEVEL! :CONGRAT:
Reply #36 Top
Hey, the chess computer's not cheating ... I'm just not thinking fast enough!!! LOL
Reply #37 Top
Funny Waright, I clicked on your name and it looks like you played only two games to completion on Challenging level. If you can beat the game on Genius, you seem awful passionate on this cheating issue. I would imagine that you would grow board and simply stop playing this game.

I have to admit, you make some rather bold claims about the abilities of the AI, yet you have little evidence to support your claims. Now don't get me wrong. I believe that the AI is allowed certain advantages (being able to see the board, or the yellow stars, and economic boosts at higher difficulty levels), however aren't these balanced out by our ability to negotiate very lucrative tech deals with the AI empires, particularly the minor races (this has become more difficult through patches however).

I also note an incosistency in one of your statements. You claim that x AI has X amount of credits in turn 10+, which is not visible unless you invest in espionage. Seeing is how I usually do not run across an alien race until about 5+ turns at the earliest, and I usually don't have the economy to invest in espionage right away, but even if I did it would certainly take more than 6 turns. It is possible to run into the AI sooner and to invest more money into espionage, but it would force me into debt, a strategy I don't particularly like.

What I am saying is, your original post comes off more like a rant instead of a constructive observation to address a problem with the game. A good way to see if your point holds water is to take a look around and see if people are describing the same issues. I am sorry to say that I have not seen any of the activity you claim to see by the AI. I find that they for the most part stay on par with me, of course that may be because I play on such a lower difficulty level than you.
Reply #38 Top
Funny Waright, I clicked on your name and it looks like you played only two games to completion on Challenging level. If you can beat the game on Genius, you seem awful passionate on this cheating issue. I would imagine that you would grow board and simply stop playing this game.

I have to admit, you make some rather bold claims about the abilities of the AI, yet you have little evidence to support your claims. Now don't get me wrong. I believe that the AI is allowed certain advantages (being able to see the board, or the yellow stars, and economic boosts at higher difficulty levels), however aren't these balanced out by our ability to negotiate very lucrative tech deals with the AI empires, particularly the minor races (this has become more difficult through patches however).

I also note an incosistency in one of your statements. You claim that x AI has X amount of credits in turn 10+, which is not visible unless you invest in espionage. Seeing is how I usually do not run across an alien race until about 5+ turns at the earliest, and I usually don't have the economy to invest in espionage right away, but even if I did it would certainly take more than 6 turns. It is possible to run into the AI sooner and to invest more money into espionage, but it would force me into debt, a strategy I don't particularly like.

What I am saying is, your original post comes off more like a rant instead of a constructive observation to address a problem with the game. A good way to see if your point holds water is to take a look around and see if people are describing the same issues. I am sorry to say that I have not seen any of the activity you claim to see by the AI. I find that they for the most part stay on par with me, of course that may be because I play on such a lower difficulty level than you.
Reply #40 Top
You can ask to get money from them while trading. on one turn it listed about 1300 in that window, in the next it listed 2200. If frogboy said "the AE shows you a random ammount of it real number in the trade window each turn" then sure.. ok.. on that same game it showed about 2000 on turn 4 after researching universal trans. (100% to tech while 100% spend rate) I dont unfortunatly have a save of turn 4:(
Reply #41 Top
I think this is a good example of when you should not feed the trolls. The first couple of responses showed how flaccid his arguments are, yet he rails on.

~SDC~
Reply #42 Top
yes, please stop, I am tired of watching this thread, its old, it should die... let it die.
Reply #43 Top
COMPUTER. Can you say COMPUTER. Say it with me know, I know you can.

What is a 4X game but a giant battle of spreadsheets. Some games hide the spreadsheets like GalCiv. Some games emphasize them like Stars. But its all about the calculations.

One is 1 thing that computers do far better than any human being ever will...

Oh...that's right make calculations. Not only can the computer make more of them faster than you and more accurately...but it never gets bored and decide to just wing it. It calculates.

Why is it that every time a computer gains an edge because it out optimizes a player, somebody comes out and starts accusing the computer of cheating?

Its a computer...its what it does.

Reply #44 Top
Err

"You can ask to get money from them while trading. on one turn it listed about 1300 in that window, in the next it listed 2200. "

So the AI extorted 900 credits from a couple of other races? Or maybe they did what I do, trade all my techs asap, and then sell them to as many AI as I can.

Also if there is a minor race around, they start with a ton of cash, and they are usually at a disadvantage diplomatically so it is easy to wring them for cash early on.

Honestly I was pretty mystified for my first couple games on how quickly the AI pumped out things. But now, on intelligent so far I can stay ahead of the AI pretty easily if I get a good starting location.

Anyways, there is nothing wrong with criticism and reporting possible bugs, but unless you can be very specific you are just wasting everyone's time.

Reply #45 Top
"So the AI extorted 900 credits from a couple of other races? Or maybe they did what I do, trade all my techs asap, and then sell them to as many AI as I can."

There was 1 minor race and I did not have an eye on his bank, that is my bad. Good post Brysos you definatly added some closure to this thread.. now to everone else. plz let it die.