The only big thing wrong with galciv

Is that the developers say they "challenge the player without the AI cheating" (not a direct quote but close enough.

Like almost every other game of this type the Computer Races does not even play the same game as the player game.

Now people will say they are just playing by different rules or some such garbage... but what is your definition of cheating then? Its not playing by the same rules... DING DING DING!

Here are some examples of undocumented "different rules"

1) Ability to extort... the computer players have huge ability with this at very low tech, real players have almost none.
2) Ability to pump out 150 cost constructors every other turn with 1 planet at turn 15 for multiple turns without harming long term economy. My best guess at this "advantage" is that it is buying them at the mitrosoft rates without having to pay anything per turn afterwards.
3) Ability to see specials and send constructors to them without a visible ship scouting. You want me to send you save games I will on this one.
4) ability to change social projects and have production count towards the next project (IE if I went back to a save after race X develops a wonder, then buy that wonder out from under them they can magically pop out economic capital instead with no social production loss)
5) ability to send colony ships across the board on a large very early in game.
6) a ton more that are hard to pin down since they come up later in the game.

All this being said I want you to balance your game, pleas please please resend you boasts about the game not cheating, they are not helpful and will hinder your ability to successfully communicate with your player base.

Example:

Player A says "WHAH WHAH WHAH the computer cheats in XYZ way"
Developer B says "we only give the computer player QRS advantages"
Player A says "But they cheat… I can prove it"
Developer B says "you need to learn how to beat the game as it is"

Now no matter how relevant XYZ is wrt balancing Developer B will out of hand reject the whole idea since the word "cheat" was used... so now we have miscommunication and frustration for ZERO reason. Both the Player and the Developer are using the wrong language to get the issue looked at in any meaningfull way. This situation is created by Stardock!

This being said I don’t have any real issue with the game itself; I can handle all the cheats. But calling them something different is silly.

Swallow your pride and admit this game cheats as much if not more than MOO2 so ballancing issues can be just that... ballancing.. not a pissing match between people who say the game cheats and the people who love frogboy so much they would jump off a bridge to defend him from the evil people accusing this game of cheating.

Great Game BTW, makes MOO3 looks like a crackerjack toy (single player wise).
1,159 views 45 replies
Reply #1 Top
The computer micromanages/optimizes like a god... that's why it's a computer.

1) not sure what you mean by this one. If you simply mean to ask for money and get it... maybe, don't know.

2) I don't know if you can say that it doesn't hurt it's economy. And by saying it is a `guess' you aren't sure either.

3) Yes, I agree, this is a `cheat' but one that was out and out said by the developers. Why they felt the need to give the computer this, I don't know. But it's minor in the scheme of things.

4) I wouldn't be able to say, how do you know that it is doing this one? Honestly curious.

5) Haven't seen this happen, not saying that it doesn't but maybe there is an explanation. Although this distance thing is being looked at I believe I read.

I'm not really clear on how much in your list are actually non-discolosed cheats.

Definitely one pure and simple, but it's generally accepted, and that's #3. I'd rather it explored during game like I have to...

The others perhaps they just aren't aware of the fix/bug/cause (if it is one) yet such as #5.

However, just because of these things I would not be so bold as to say that they are specifically intended to be cheats/balancing issues etc. They could be bugs, they could have rational explanations. Stranger things have happened than finding bugs in code.
Reply #2 Top
Regarding #3 - I believe in the storyline that it says the other races had been spacefaring long before contact with Earth was ever made. Hence they know where the resources/good planets are.
Makes sense.

But I do wish there was an option (say on the Race Creation menu) to 'level the playing field' and have all races start not knowing where anything is.
Reply #3 Top
LoL my thread was not to documents the cheats it was to show how un-helpfull the claim of "the AI does not cheat" is.
Reply #4 Top
Understood, however, you didn't offer much in the way of evidence IMO. Hence my questions.

#3 clearly fits your bill of cheating called another thing (explained away and accepted).

Other than that, there is no indication of what you are saying that might not be dismissed under investigation as being within proper game mechanics that are available to you and I, or as a bug yet to be fixed.
Reply #5 Top
Interesting list,

1) just refuse. You can extort money from other races as well. I've often extorted money from weak AI's and minors. Hurts relations though.

2) AI definitely gets hurt by buying too many ships and having a whopping big lease later on. A very good tactic is to keep a close eye on the AI treasury and at it's lowest point offer it a 'must have' trade lasting for a long period of time. You'll often see AI races in bad debt with lots of moral problems and planets rebeling.

3) Part of the story. Definitely a great advantage. Done to remove the need for complex searching algorithms. Could possibly be changed or an option added in future.

4) Not sure about this. I've definitely seen similar behaviour after crashes, where the AI had built project A after a crash it builds project B instead. It can buy these projects though, so I'm not sure. Check it's money before and after.

5) Again not sure. It could have the colony ships well ahead of the support constructor. I certainly do the same. I often send a colony ship towads an out of reach sector at the start and send a constructor along later to build a starbase half way. very hard to be sure of without revealing the entire map. Some people have reported this possible bug but never with firm proof. Stardock are looking at it.

6) Please pin down and report.

The computer should not be cheating and if it does then it's a BUG. Please report so that they can get fixed. Makes far more sense than accusing them of letting the AI cheat.

Paul.



~SDC~
Reply #7 Top
1) You can extort the computer players and they can extort you.

2) You can build as many constructors as you do. They use the same ship building code you do.

3) This is part of the plot.

4) Not true. AI can't do this. Your statement is incorrect.

5) They don't do this and if they do, it's a bug. The AI uses the same range code the human does. The game makes no distinction.

Reply #8 Top
Put out 6 contsturctors within the first 20 turns of the game and tell me you have any viable economy with 1 and only 1 planet. just try it... I have seen a computer player do it at genius level on a tiny with only 1 colony.

See a pissing match... its stupid... all because ppl love frogboy and and want to defend him at all costs from the evil people saying this game cheats.. see what I am getting at?
Reply #9 Top
I've yet to see the AI put out 6 constructors in the first 20 turns, playing at Intelligent. I've seen it put out 1.

I can do the same. Probably 2. And *with* a very viable economy, as I can win the game.

~SDC~
Reply #10 Top
Frogboy, the balancing issue with #1 is that the computer player can extort from 5 different other computer players in the first 20 turns giving them about 20x the initial economy for the first 40 turns, if this happens it’s a serious balancing issue. My feeling is that any intelligent discussion of this is hard to strike up since there are so many frogboy fans who will jump on a person for even saying that the computer may be cheating so the underlying balancing issue becomes lost. Like how this thread is going.
Reply #11 Top
On Genius level the AI does get en economic boost. This is well documented already. Check the FAQ and other forum threads.

~SDC~
Reply #12 Top
I haven't seen a single "frogboy fan" (is that what we're calling "GalCiv fanboys" these days?) post in this thread. What I've seen are people with PLAYING EXPERIENCE disputing the accusations made. Like this:

1) You have the ability to extort the AI. It's not a "cheat" that it does it more often/more effectively than you. Learn how to do it yourself. Or, if you don't like the cost associated with it (lowered relations), don't do it. But just because the AI's cost/benefit assessment is different from your's doesn't mean it's cheating.

2) This statement is so hyperbolic and garbled that it's not even worth discussing.

3) There's a thing called "backstory". Browse around GalCiv.com and you'll find it. It explains this. Yes, it's an ability you don't have. No, it's not a secret. And on Tiny --> Large maps (the sizes I've played), I can say definitively that it doesn't make a difference. I always end up with more planets than the AI.

4) Interesting, but hardly proven. For all you know the AI had both projects under construction and a lot of cash in it's treasury, and simply chose to Purchase Project A the first time, and then on the reload made a different decision and Purchased Project B instead.

5) I've played several games on Large, and haven't seen a single indication of this. The AI's colonies have always been located in groups within the appropriate ranges. Keep in mind that on larger maps the default range limitations for colony ships and the like are expanded.

6) Now there's a good complaint...

- Ash

~SDC~
Reply #13 Top
does #1 actually occur? have you actually had an AI player extorting from 5 different civs in the opening stages of the game? i mean, i've had the drengins extort cash from minor civs fairly early on, but that's not gonna make or break your strategy.

cheers

h
Reply #14 Top
Again, this thread was not created to try to document the cheats, but allas it is de-railed... I wish frogboy answered the heart of my post not the irrelevent examples.
Reply #15 Top
He answers your post point by point and you come back with that?

Was the heart of your post that GalCiv cheats "as much if not MORE" than Moo2?? You want him to respond to that? You are behaving like a cad, then, sir.

~SDC~
Reply #16 Top
"See a pissing match... its stupid... all because ppl love frogboy and and want to defend him at all costs from the evil people saying this game cheats.. see what I am getting at?"

No, I don't. I mean I know what you are saying, but I don't see that happening here.

We just want clarification so that if there are `cheats/bugs" whatever you call them they can get addressed.

That's not a pissing match, it isn't defence. It's wanting a good game to get better.

Just do as you said and provide the developers with the stuff to help them find any problems.

If there aren't any and if the AI is doing things that are within the realm of the rules cool.

If not I am sure they will try to fix the problem.

I don't understand this one:
"the balancing issue with #1 is that the computer player can extort from 5 different other computer players in the first 20 turns giving them about 20x the initial economy for the first 40 turns, if this happens it’s a serious balancing issue. "

How are you knowing that it is doing this stuff? And if one computer player is doing this and getting away with it... maybe it is exploiting a bug.

But it isn't the same as saying that it is cheating. It isn't creating money out of nowhere, the other AIs are suffering and providing that money.

Not a cheat but something to look into. As unless one race gets a lucky find early on, I don't see why the others would give in to the extortion.

As for this:
"My feeling is that any intelligent discussion of this is hard to strike up since there are so many frogboy fans who will jump on a person for even saying that the computer may be cheating so the underlying balancing issue becomes lost"

I haven't seen this yet. Just questions and attempted answers.
Reply #17 Top
"Again, this thread was not created to try to document the cheats, but allas it is de-railed... I wish frogboy answered the heart of my post not the irrelevent examples."

OK. But you cannot have a meaningful discussion of alias' to cheats if what is going on is not cheating/balancing issues?

Agreed?

You have to nail down the specifics before it can be said, "yes, this is the computer cheating", "yes, this is a bug", etc.

Agreed?
Reply #18 Top
"Again, this thread was not created to try to document the cheats, but allas it is de-railed... I wish frogboy answered the heart of my post not the irrelevent examples."

He has, a thousand times in a thousand threads. Go read some of them. Why do you feel like you, personally, deserve to have that which has been said before said again just for you? It's common knowledge that on Genius and Incredible, the AI cheats. It gets economic bonuses. Below those levels, it doesn't. Brad has said that the AI IS playing the same game as you (he even said it in this thread: "They use the same ship building code you do"; "The AI uses the same range code the human does").

If that was the heart of your post, it's been answered. You should be especially thankful for that, because the "examples" you gave, presumably to justify posting such an insulting thread, were rather weak. And yet Brad answered you anyway.

- Ash

~SDC~
Reply #19 Top
Let's see...

1) Bullpucky. Develop a strong military early on and you, too, can use extortion for fun and profit.

2) Never seen it happen. IF it does happen and only at very high difficulty levels, it's probably a side effect of the bonus taxes that AIs above Intelligent get (at least, I think Brad mentioned the AI get that in the past). Check out the GalCiv FAQ for details on how much.

3) Never seen it happen. The AI knows where the good star systems are, and MAY know where the resources are, depending on whether they are defined as "stars" or "ships" in the code (last I heard, even Brad wasn't sure about this). Regardless, it really makes very little difference to a skilled player, has been amply explained in the backstory, and is an acknowledged exception to the "no cheating" statement.

4) I don't see how you could possibly know this with any degree of confidence. As someone else stated, the AI probably had a lot of cash lying around and both projects under construction at different locations.

5) If this occurs, it's called a BUG. There have been other reports of it, but nothing confirmed so far.

6) Riiight.

It sounds to me like you just can't handle the possibility that a computer is smart enough to beat you at a game like this with so few artificial advantages.
Reply #20 Top
The funny thing is, that all the "cheating" the AI is getting accused for regulary can be done by human as well if they find out how. I'm far from having found out every thing the AI on a Genius level can do (I'm playing on normal right now), hopefully one day I will. but I think it's quite funny, that while some bad players talk about cheating, some expert players make fondue all the time: "cheese! I'm able to win! That's cheesy!".

Did anybody ever think about the possibility , that those "cheesy" strategies can - or at least: could - used by the AI itself? If you put your research at max till you have a specific tech, then change it to social improvement, btw. buy a colony ship, when the social improvement is built, change it to 100% military till you have to more colony ships, than put everything into research again. etc. is this cheasy? is this cheating? Or is it just the ability to know how to play this game?

~SDC~
Reply #21 Top
"Put out 6 contsturctors within the first 20 turns of the game and tell me you have any viable economy"

I do it in most every game I play on a small map. Learn to play the game, guy, then come back and talk trash.
Reply #22 Top
Ahh, I that it said 'colony ships'. Scratch that. Instead: Show me a comp. that puts out 6 contructors in 20 turns. If it has a good econ., it's doing it through maxiumum use of sliders and trades.
Reply #23 Top
Quellar: Exactly.

BTW, I can't find the FAQ I saw with the economy bonuses now. Oh well.
Reply #24 Top
????

You come on and say the AI cheats. Brad tells you it doesn't, and clearly refutes your claims of cheats. So in effect, the purpose of your original post is to call him a liar???

You say the purpose of the thread was to not document the cheats as *you* see them. Then what was the purpose?

Do you think that the game is unbalanced because the computer can figure out the best balance of finances, research and morale better than you. That is like saying a computer chess game cheats because it can calculate thousands of moves to see the best outcome and you can't.

GalCiv plays by the same rules as you and I. The *one* well documented difference is that the AI knows where yellow stars(note- not planet quality!) and resources (which I personnaly hate)are.

If it appears that the AI truly is cheating, it is probably a bug and needs to be reported to Stardock.

Scott
Reply #25 Top
Well, I guess your right dearmad, in his response I guess he did indicate that he thinks they are using the same game mechanics and RULES for progressing through the game except for the "knowing the board" and listed economy bonuses/ability bonuses for computer AI level.

At first the only thing I heard is that they know yellow starts only... they seemed to say it over and over... now it seems they say computers know the board. Maybe I missed stuff in between but this seems to be a pride issue that they were forced to back off of because they were caught in a lie.

At first I heard that genius was only a 5% economy bonus now it seems it’s both an economy bonus and some extra abilities. All this is just fine since they are balancing issues or it could be they gave them an ability bonus from the start and they did not give us the whole story or I mis-read information.

I can win the game on genius... that is not the issue. Its balancing is not awful but could be better.


This all could be a perception issue on my part.

I guess I will trust more diplomatic people to try to address the many balancing issues this game has, but players trying to comment about balancing are at an inherent disadvantage since they can’t see the code. With the "AI does not cheat" environment I just feel it’s tough to distinguish between a bug, a cheat and a balancing issue. THIS IS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO ADDRESS

Do I think they are not telling us all the "advantages" the computer player has? Damn straight. Do I fault them for this? I do, but only because of the claims wrt how the computer plays and AI. Do I think the cheats are on the same level as MOO2? yes, but GalCiv is an order of magnitude more complex than MOO2(well not exactly but you can go with this number if you want to) so is it a fair comparasion wrt quality of how well startdock programed the AI? Not really, the Stardock programers could be 8x better at AI than the MOO2 programers and the complexity level would overpower the comparison.

Oh, well.. thread seems like a big waist at this point.