Draginol Draginol

Michael Moore propaganda continues...

This article at the Telegraph (linked below) sums up many of my views on Moore.  Moore's writings and "documentaries" can be entertaining -- if you're already in the looney left wing camp or don't keep up with this stuff on a daily basis.  To the rest of us, it's just frustrating.

In my view, Moore is little more than just some ranting left wing idealogue who has managed to get famous. There's a zillion conspriacy nuts just like him out there. It's like they've elected him king of the loonies to spread his nastiness around.

Given the success of his film, however, it's seems that he's managed to expand his base beyong the fringe and into the mainstream. What this means for Bush is unknown.  Many people I know who are on the right fear that this bodes very ill for those of us who favor the administration's foreign policy.

But I disagree. I have great faith in the average person. I don't know if Bush will win or not (I tend to think he won't for electoral college reasons but that's not related to this film). But I don't think this film will persuade fair minded people.

Moore seems to forget that millions of Americans, such as myself, expected the US to respond in Afghanistan. The whole oil pipeline bullshit is just that -- bullshit.  I don't care if there had been a magical energon cube mine in Afghanistan, after 9/11, we had better had gone in there and removed the Taliban and disrupted Al Qaeda.

Similarly, those of us who favored military action in Iraq could care less about the oil. I don't have any ties to "big oil" and yet somehow I've been in favor of the US removing Saddam since 1998. How is this possible? In Moore's slanted universe, people like me are dupes. Suckered in by greedy puppets of big oil to do their bidding.  I would, on the other hand, argue that we are merely keepers of something Moore obviously lacks -- common sense. 

Oil only comes into play in Iraq in that it was a resource that gave Saddam the capital to acquire things that could do us great harm either in the short or long term.  After 9/11, removing Saddam was a "no brainer". The whole "Bush lied" nonsense strikes me as incredibly ignorant given that everyone thought he had WMDs long before Bush came into office. 

But Moore seems to want to have it both ways. Bush is both a simpleton and a master manipulator of us dupes out in the world. The attacks of 9/11, which were planned during the Clinton years, demonstrate to clear thinking Americans that there is no foreign policy that would satisfy these maniacs. If the appeasement policies of the 90s led to 9/11, I think it's worth trying a more aggressive policy -- which is what Bush is doing. 

30,067 views 68 replies
Reply #51 Top
Interesting how Draginol subtly shifts the topic, thinking no one will notice. He started a topic about Moore, and then claims that there are lies in the new film (of which he presents not even one), and then starts talking about conspiracies and other non-related issues. If he feels that there are lies being told, why doesn't he present an example of one? Surely if they abound it should be easy to present just one. However, I predict that his response will be typical right wing redirection and insults, and not anything to substantiate his claims.
Reply #52 Top

You know, Jay, if you want to particpate on my blog you woudl do well not to selectively quote.  I said that oil is very valuable STRATEGICALLY but not lucrative in itself. It's not a good path to enrichment but it is a strategically valuable resource.  Nation states are motivated to control the supply of it but individuals are not going to be terribly motivated by trying to get oil contracts versus many other easier pathways to wealth.

As for my support of Bush, here are reasons why I am not particularly pro-Bush (and if you looked at my blog, you would see that I have written on this before):

1) He supports prescription drug coverage paid for by the government.

2) He supports a constitutional amendement against gay marriage

3) He is against stem cell research

4) He favors making abortion illegal at the federal level

5) He has allowed pork barrel politics to grow at an unprecedented rate

6) He took the largest surplus in American history and turned it into the largest deficit in American history

7) I want my leaders to be articulate and well spoken, Bush is neither.

8) The administration reaks of arrogance and tunnel vision.

9) As a person, Bush is essentially the spoil rich kid that got everything handed to him in life. He's never had to struggle or work towards anything himself.

10) I am a bit distrustful of leaders who speak of being guided by "higher powers" (i.e. God or any other super natural force).

Jeff George: So now it's MY fault that the early responders started talking about conspiracy theories? Good grief.

Reply #53 Top
Drag, for one the figures on the site you've linked to are 2003 estimates. Composition by Sector estimates are from 1993! The figures I gave are from a hearing Wolfowitz made, and I have no problem with him contradicting the CIA figures as it just vindicates suggestions that these guys aren't cooperating and are being dishonest with congress and the American people.

And yes, we have spent over 200 billion despite the original number being far lower. When Wolfowitz made this hearing we had yet to go in to the war, we all know the numbers were never accurate. That's just the point, the oil would have never paid for it despite Wolfowitz testifying that it would to Congress. Do you really think not a single Congressman looked at that estimated bill and said "well luckily the oil will pay for this"? There are plenty of liberal senators that most likely would not have voted for the war if they though it would cost what it has. The whole point is that there has been deception and a misleading of the American people. You've yet to respond to me without calling someone names or pulling the "france sucks" trick that does nothing but make you look even more like the ficticious democrats that Coulter pointed out in my initial quote. If you do not want to actually engage what I am saying in response, then tell me. Otherwise, you have managed to prove my point from my initial thread each time you have responded.

And as for these conspiracy theorists.... why are you even wasting your time with them? Moore actually made intelligent arguments based on books that have critical acclaim. He then sees two advisors to a major oil company get placed in high positions in Afghanistan and then signing in a new oil pipeline owned by the same company they advised just years earlier. That isn't exactly a conspiracy theory so much as incriminating evidence. There is just as much evidence that is angering people over Cheney and Halliburton. I am wondering why you are getting so riled up if you think he is so wrong. On the left, people laugh at Coulter and just brush it aside. Why are these charges of Moore's being taken so strongly to heart? I can only think of either you do not believe in the intelligence of anybody else, you've already tried to call them ignorant before claiming that oil is not particularly lucrative, or you are of the extreme right effor that Bush can do no wrong. Please tell me you are not from either, please show me your alternate viewpoint, becasue I really do not want to come away from this thread saying that the guy that ignored all of my responses to focus on the most trivial matters in the thread did so because he was that extreme that he ignores criticism when he's wrong.
Reply #54 Top
Moore is little more than just some ranting left wing idealogue who has managed to get famous. There's a zillion conspriacy nuts just like him out there. It's like they've elected him king of the loonies to spread his nastiness around.
How incredibly unfair of the left wing, to counter Rush, et al with Farenheit 911.

Taking the narrow view -- this one election -- it seems only fair that the liberals too be represented by someone who has a sense of how to mix entertainment, scandal, and politics. The right has dominated in this area for years.

I am not going to scour the net to debunk this kind of nonsense. I am quite comfortable stating that those who believe there is some conspiracy to cover up the "real story" of 9/11 based on the things you state above are loons/kooks/whatever.
Honestly, I have to ask: Are you saying this only to fight for your chosen political candidate of the moment?

Setting aside, for the moment, one's impression of this particular administration, our government has a very low batting average when it comes to providing the straight story during tough times. Talk to any knowledgeable historian, and you will hear that our government (of all parties) has manipulated public opinion with misleading information throughout our history.

I am not saying our government is worse than others -- I am not qualified to judge, but I strongly suspect that it is not. I am also not making judgments about whether this manipulation is avoidable. But I do say that the official line is not likely to be the truth -- and I'm pretty sure that history will bear me regarding the events of 2001-2004 20 years down the road.

It is my sense that conservatives know this in their hearts, and they would be the first to question/doubt/rumor mong (how's that for a verb? ) if there happened to be a liberal administration picking its battles according to liberal prejudices.

After listening to Clinton supporters and after listening to Bush supporters, I have to conclude it is all the same. The president can stage manage the pictures, manipulate the facts, and fight using media experts and charisma -- and it is the patriotic duty of Americans to buy the current line -- even when the current line changes from week to week. However, when the opponents stage manage the pictures, manipulate the facts and fight using entertainment values -- then it is all vile propaganda.

As far as I am concerned, until you apply the same standards to Limbaugh and Moore (and, for that matter to both the past and present presidents' media campaigns) you are only involved in the tactics of the current election, you are not really trying to confront the truth.
Reply #55 Top
Just a side note Drag, seeing your list of why you are not particularly pro-Bush. All well and good it means you are more moderate as I had hoped, and it is comforting to see moderates that simply have issue with individuals like Moore rather than hardliners against all things non-republican. I just started up a thread under the title Quasi-Article #2 (since it's my second) that is a sort of working idea about the rhetoric that has been used with the War on Terror(ism). Nothing factual per se, just what I have noticed lately and my thoughts on it. I'd love to hear your input, even if you just think I am looking too far in to the rhetoric.
Reply #56 Top
OK Brad,

I respect you for saying what you did. I had the impression - mistaken obviously - that you support Bush's politics no matter what they were. It always worries me when anyone seems to be blindly following someone else without thinking for themselves - and you obviously don't fit into this category.

As to selectively quoting, I think pretty much everyone does this. I do this when I want to explore one aspect of something someone has said ... I suspect others (yourself included?) do the same ...
Reply #57 Top
Baker Street,

I'm a Catholic and I'm pro-birth control (the Church has a stupid policy on this matter) and pro-gay rights (religious beliefs does not give us the right to discriminate.) Then again, I don't think the government should be in the business of marrying people at all, and should just give everyone civil unions. But I digress.

I would point you to Zell Miller, Democrat from Georgia, who is a big Bush supporter and opposes his party on pretty much every issue. People often ask him why he doesn't leave his party, and his answer is (to paraphrase), "Because I'm a Democrat, and even though I might not like the direction my party has taken, I'm loyal to my vision of the way things should be." People have lots of reasons to stick it out with something that is diverging with what they believe in. Emotional reasons, matters of loyalty, and a firm belief that your cohorts have it wrong are but a few reasons to stand firm. The Christian Coalition is part of the Republican Party, but it is not the Republican Party. The Log Cabin Club is part of the Republican Party, but it is not the Republican Party. If the Party were actually stupid enough to chuck out people who disagreed with them on multiple issues, they would revert once again to being the minority party. If the Republicans want to have any chance of keeping the power they have gained, they will need to begin rejecting their conservative extreme and moving more towards the middle.

In American politics, there is no such thing is party purity. As Tip O'Neill once said, "All politics is local." What it means to be a Republican in California might well horrify a Republican from Mississippi, but that does not mean that all California Republicans should immediately switch over to the Democratic party. A Californian Republican might very well have more in common with Kerry than with Bush. That doesn't mean he's not a Republican. That means he's a different kind of Republican than Bush. And that Republican might very well vote for Kerry, but would then vote for mostly Republicans in the state races.
Reply #58 Top
Brad, in terms of the deficit, troubling obviously, but total public debt not all that alarming compared to most OECD countries.

The Economist, USA key financial statistics profile

(PS The Economist is a great resource to broaden one's outlook and international knowledge - important if one has political aspirations [and doesn't just want to putz around after elected], as I suspect you do)





Reply #59 Top
HEY, STOP ALL THE ARGUING. THERE IS ONLY ONE SENSIBLE THING TO DO ABOUT MICHAEL MOORE. GET A GUN AND SHOOT HIM IN HIS FAT GUT. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
Reply #60 Top
Actually, I love michael moore. When Bush wins the election, the democrats and their giant liberal media machine will look very weak. All this propaganda and all their huge effort and they could not get their pathetic, commie, kerry elected. that will be a very sad day for them. HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!!!!!!!!
Reply #61 Top
patrucio: There comes a time though when there is nothing left but the name. I know "Southern Democrats" that would disagree point by point with almost everything the party itself is working towards, but simply cannot vote republican because FDR "saved the country". I think if people were given just the platform of both parties at the polls with no party titles, the voting would be far different.
Reply #62 Top
I am not sure how you can be pro-Gay rights, pro-abortion, pro-stem cell research, pro-gun control... and still vote for Bush

this was a response to assertions that one could be all of the above and a republican. you shifted the focus to 'vote for bush' altho i dont think you were meaning to suggest that voting for bush is the republican acid test. there seem to be more than a few long-time republicans who may ultimately vote for bush albeit very unhappily.

beyond that, if barry goldwater were alive today he would be pro-choice. i dont recall him every mentioning stem cell research, but it seems more likely than not he would be in favor of it. im positive he would have been one of the first to decry bush's call for a constitutional amendment to prohibit same-sex marriages (or any of the other four or five amendments bush has pushed for in the past). gun control is a coin toss (which may sound bizarre on the surface, but a lot of very staunchly conservative law enforcement professionals are adamantly pro-gun control). taking a scalia-thomas approach to the constitutional wording (as hahahah michael moore sorta did in bowling for columbine) arms arent necessarily guns.

one area in which i think the administration has shown admirable consistency of principle (at least in iraq) is gun control. only in recent weeks has there been any wavering...i guess iraqis are no longer permitted to bear rpg launchers or smaws...but otherwise the place is nothing short of a real-world nra showcase.
Reply #63 Top
This really points to the divisions in the Republican party. You've got neocons versus realists, libertarians versus theoconservatives, budget balancers versus tax-cutters, etc. The only thing all Republicans have in common is disliking Democrats.
Reply #64 Top

BTW, I'm not pro-gun control. I believe law abiding Americans should have unfettered access to firearms. But yes, on many issues I have the same views as Democrats.

My views tend to fall on the side of keeping the government out of my face.

Reply #65 Top
HELIX...........wouldn't that be funny if moore were a secret republican. the way moore has been behaving, he is either a moron or he IS a secret republican. all i can say is that we republicans need as many morons like moore as we can get. moore is making Bush a bigger winner every day. i hope the dumb democrats continue to embrace the stupid fool.