Feeling frisky? Minor updates

This build definitely makes some changes. In the game I'm running right now, there are a few big wars between the AI players, but the ones that dislike me haven't forced me into war at the drop of a hat, as I would have expected them to. (They could if they wanted to, since the game is going poorly overall.) So, that part seems to be working for the better.

As far as diplomacy goes, the largest change in this particular build seems to be an odd bug with the minor races. About half of them refuse to buy techs except when given the most ludicrous of offers. It seems to be specific to certain minor races; when they spawn, some of them just decide they don't want to trade. I just offered the Carinoids literally a dozen techs, and they refused to pay 50bc for them, even though they have 1200 on hand. I certainly didn't notice this behavior before, so I presume it is related to this build.

On a semi-related note, since 1.02 came out, all the AI players are very wary of buying anything with an offer greater than 20 turns. I'm not sure if that was intentional, but they now really seem to dislike the long payments over 20 turns, regardless of the price. Maybe they just have a hard time budgeting out that far, who knows.

I noticed 20 as a practical upper limit some number of versions ago. You sure that's only true since 1.02?

~SDC~

In my experience, it depends on what they're paying for. With Technology, the longest they seem to be willing to make payments is about 22 months or so. However, with one of the Trade Goods, I was getting about 100 turns. Haven't tried it since going to 1.02, though.

Yea, with 1.02 i cant get much more than 50/22 when trading techs to major Civs.

Also has anyone noticed that minor civs are always in debt now..from pretty much turn one they are *always*about 1000-3000 in debt..they seem a shadow of their former selves

~SDC~

Longer than 20 months is possible, but you have to lower the amount of money you want to make for a month a lot. I think trading works like it should now.

~SDC~

Neat.

If we install this, will anything bad happen if 1.02A comes out and we install that over this?

Mike C: nothing bad would happen

Anyway, don't bother installing as Frogboy stated that they havn't tested it yet. Read what other peeps has said about it than decide for yourself....

How can I get 1.02

My only problem with trading at this point is the new cheese strategy of offering to go to war with wimps- and the AI thinks thast is worth something. Brad, have you thought about this at all? "See my New CHEESE from the Diplo-CHEESMEISTER thread," please. I think I came up with a fairly simple fix that might work (though I'm not the programmer and wouldn't really know).

~SDC~

Dearmad, haven't really looked at that yet.

20 turns is the maximum the AI looks into the future for planning its strategy. So it is wary of making deals longer than 20 years into the future.

Why shouldn't going to war with wimps be worth something?

My personal view is that anything that the player can do to get money in diplomacy is a good thing.

It only becomes "Cheese" if such a tactic would let you beat "intelligent" or higher at reasonably sized galaxies.

In fact, for the next build I think we shojuld crank up the minor races economic ability so that players can get more money out of them.

Squeezing money out of the computer players is one of the things that distinguishes a new player from an experienced one.

Re: Going to war with wimps, for money.

Nothing wrong with that. It's somewhat realistic, even: mercenaries have been doing it for millenia. It's a classic case of paying someone else to solve your problems for you.

Would it be possible to update the AI so that it looks ahead for more than 20 turns? The gameplay would get more realistic, wouldn't it? Or would that need too much processing time?

~SDC~

I'm torn here Brad. I realize it can be discouraging to see alot of negative comments or suggestions from everyone as soon as you complete an update. But I'm sure you don't want the forum filled with a bunch of attaboys either. Let this just be my outstanding blank check, that I like the direction you're taking support for GalCiv and I'm impressed. I bought the game almost soley on the fact that you seemed so commited to make this thing work, that I was sure it would be a success. These are more than maintenance updates, and a big ol' free expansion pack in June?

Buying GalCiv isn't just a purchase, its an investment in a growing product.




~SDC~

Thanks Froggy!

- Ash

~SDC~

Hmm ok im Wrong. In my just finished game i was easily extorting civs 50/25+ and with my allies they were paying up to 50/30.

guess the stance of the civ to you is a big factor on lease length

~SDC~

The reason my offer to go to war with wimps should be worth practically 0 to the AI should be pretty obvious- they won't get anything out of. I *will* get something out of it. That means to them it is 0, to *me* it is worth something. No AI in their right mind would agree to valuing highly my offer to attack the one-planet Torians; valuing that highly enough to cease a war that is balanced between us. It should value highly my offer to attack a powerful AI though.

Oh, god, the stuff Frogboy is offering to do above is the wrong direction entirely, IMO. I'm experiencing this on *Intelligent* *Large* galaxy. My economy is easily 6x larger than anyone elses due to this strategy, (I own equal the number of planets as the Yor (less actually) and the Altarians) making it any easier on me will only force me to go play on the cheating levels. I was hoping to help fine tune the Intelligent AI at this point.

I just made peace with the Altarians/Yor for 300x40 deals. I think the turning point was when the Altarians allowed me to make them the Torian attack offer and they valued it for money- they shouldn't have. This allwed me to crank up my industry to 100%. Once I get that going, there's almost no stopping me as more money begets more tech begets more ships begets more power, and then another war against the Altarians... (I'd made instant peace with the Torian wimps and they paid me too!) and then mor extortion for $$$ if I go to war against the Torians, wash rinse repeat.

Please consider my ideas on this Brad before dismissing it.

~SDC~

I've run into a rather major bug with this build, in that an allied race just up and attacked me for no apparent reason. Here's what happened:

Back story: I've been allied with the Torians for a while, who are also allied with the Altarians. The Altarians have been moving from Friendly to Wary with me over the last 20 turns or so, despite the fact that I'm doing massive trading with them. (As an aside, I believe the Altarians were still Friendly when I saved the game last night, and when I reloaded it today they were Neutral and have gone downhill every since -- maybe the diplomatic leanings aren't always saving properly? Or maybe they just don't like humans anymore!) All three of us are at war with the Drengins, who are the only other major race left.

What just happened is that without any message or provocation, the Torians (my allies) attacked a ship in my planet close to them, thereby putting us at war. Fortunately the game was saved the turn before this happens, so it's easy to reload and repeat; it happens every time I take the turn.

The following is the end of the debug.err log, from when I load the saved game, did the turn and they attack the ship in my planet Arcadius, then quit the game. (Sorry for the spam, folks.) If you need the saved game, Brad, I can email that as well.

--------
Debug Message: Loading game.
Debug Message: Total Ships: 336 & 0 are dead
Debug Message: Total Ships: 336 & 0 are dead
Debug Message: Total Ships: 336 & 0 are dead
Debug Message: Total Ships: 336 & 0 are dead
Debug Message: Total Ships: 336 & 0 are dead
Debug Message: Total Ships: 336 & 0 are dead
Debug Message: Total Ships: 336 & 0 are dead
Debug Message: Total Ships: 336 & 0 are dead
Debug Message: Setting Race Order
Debug Message: Setting Race Order Completed
Debug Message: Setting Race Order
Debug Message: Setting Race Order Completed
Debug Message: Setting Race Order
Debug Message: Setting Race Order Completed
Debug Message: Setting Race Order
Debug Message: Setting Race Order Completed
Debug Message: Setting Race Order
Debug Message: Setting Race Order Completed
Debug Message: Destroying ship BattleHammer 802. Orbiting: 0
Debug Message: Destroying ship Trade Ship 41. Orbiting: 0
Debug Message: Destroying ship Trade Ship 03. Orbiting: 0
Debug Message: Destroying ship USS Defender 54. Orbiting: 1
Debug Message: Was Orbiting: Arcadius
Debug Message: Random Event: Begin
Debug Message: Total Ships: 336 & 4 are dead
Debug Message: Total Ships: 336 & 4 are dead
Debug Message: Total Ships: 336 & 4 are dead
Debug Message: Total Ships: 336 & 4 are dead
Debug Message: Total Ships: 336 & 4 are dead
Debug Message: Total Ships: 336 & 4 are dead
Debug Message: Total Ships: 336 & 4 are dead
Debug Message: Total Ships: 336 & 4 are dead
Debug Message: Torian Confederation (4): Researching: TerraComputers
Debug Message: Unable to open file gfx/Message_RaceImage29.pcx
ASSERT ERROR in file G:\PROJECTS\pear\SOURCE\DISKDATA.CPP at line 119.
Debug Message: Unable to open Bitmap file: gfx/Message_RaceImage29.pcx
Debug Message: Displaying News Event.
Debug Message: Displaying News Event.
Debug Message: Displaying News Event.
Debug Message: Displaying News Event.
Debug Message: Displaying News Event.
Debug Message: Displaying News Event.
Debug Message: Displaying News Event.
Debug Message: Displaying News Event.
Debug Message: Displaying News Event.
Debug Message: Displaying News Event.
Debug Message: Displaying News Event.
Debug Message: Displaying News Event.
Debug Message: Displaying News Event.
Debug Message: Displaying News Event.
Debug Message: Displaying News Event.
Debug Message: Displaying News Event.
Debug Message: Displaying News Event.
Debug Message: Displaying News Event.
Debug Message: Displaying News Event.
Debug Message: Setting Race Order
Debug Message: Setting Race Order Completed
Debug Message: Setting Race Order
Debug Message: Setting Race Order Completed
Debug Message: Setting Race Order
Debug Message: Setting Race Order Completed
Debug Message: Setting Race Order
Debug Message: Setting Race Order Completed
Debug Message: Setting Race Order
Debug Message: Setting Race Order Completed
Debug Message: Posting WM_CLOSE message.
Debug Message: GameUninitialize start
Debug Message: Killing Galaxy
Debug Message: Killing Galaxy: Completed
Debug Message: GameUninitialize end
Debug Message: Main Shell terminating normally
Debug Message: MemMan: Unable to find pointer in GetBlockInfo. Memory system: Palette
ASSERT ERROR in file G:\PROJECTS\pear\SOURCE\MEMMAN.CPP at line 579.
Debug Message: MemMan: Trying to free memory that has not been allocated. Memory System Palette
ASSERT ERROR in file G:\PROJECTS\pear\SOURCE\MEMMAN.CPP at line 361.
Debug Message: MemMan: Unable to find pointer in GetBlockInfo. Memory system: Palette
ASSERT ERROR in file G:\PROJECTS\pear\SOURCE\MEMMAN.CPP at line 579.
Debug Message: MemMan: Trying to free memory that has not been allocated. Memory System Palette
ASSERT ERROR in file G:\PROJECTS\pear\SOURCE\MEMMAN.CPP at line 361.

Send me your saved game and I'll check it out ([email protected]). Make sure you zip up the whole directory with that game.

Dearmud:

It's not a matter of accepting or rejecting a given idea, it's a matter of prioritizing.

As an AI developer I have to focus on making changes that will make a material difference in the outcome of the overall game. In 1.02, it's not likely you'd get 200 for 20 years for attacking a wimp. You might be able to get a few hundred bucks out of it. The question is whether this would realitsically alter the course of the game.

The goal isn't to have a perfect AI, only one tht is "good enough". Hence, I would prefer to put resources towards enhancing AI behavior in other areas. For example, I would like to see the AI utilize more and better strategies with regards to star base building, positioning, etc. That would make a far bigger difference. And there are plenty of other areas like that.

The AI does make a distinction between wimps and powerful races, even as is, btw.

I mean Dearmad, sorry about the typo.

Well, OK. I'm just wondering if it wouldn't make a huge positive difference if the one AI didn't add value to your side of the table when suing for peace when all you're offering is to attack a total wimp who will only send you money that very same turn to stop your "attack."

I didn't think it was something that would require your time at all, sorry.

~SDC~

Brad, also, I *was* playing 1.02. I got those offers in 1.02. I've uploaded the metaverse score if you want to check the latest game.

~SDC~

Perhaps the AI should not send in their war payments if you are not actually at war as promised?

That would be a simple solution to at least turning coat on them. However getting money the likes I was getting for something so worthless (even staying at was with Torians would have meant literally nothing to my empire or the gain of a planet) should be nerfed.

~SDC~