Draginol Draginol

Fahrenheit 911 aims to indoctrinate

Fahrenheit 911 aims to indoctrinate

New movie to serve as a barometer of kooky left wing interest

http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/

Fahrenheit 9/11's success or failure will provide a good measure of the political temperature of the United States. In my mind, Michael Moore is a villain. An unscrupulous opportunist who brings new meaning the to the phrase "the end justifies the means".  The end, of course, being the ouster of George W. Bush.  The means, in his own small petty way, is his new smear movie, Fahrenheit 9/11.

This review at Slate takes the movie apart bit by bit. I highly recommend reading it. If his propaganda piece on gun violence in America (Bowling for Columbine) was harmless, this propaganda substance is not. The central premise behind Bowling for Columbine was that "white America" has had a long obsession with guns and gun violence (largely due to being afraid of stuff). Forget that gun violence of "white America" is essentially the same as it is in peace-loving Canada, that doesn't fit into Moore's agenda. 

This time around, Moore's premise is that the Bush family is enthralled to the Saudis in various nefarious ways (as well to the Bin Laden family). Forget that the premise is absurd to begin with. What's really amazing is that Moore actually expects people to ignore the contradictions with these concepts.  After all, how can Bush be in the pocket of Saudi interests and be going directly against Saudi wishes by going into Iraq?

But Moore, far from being the "common man", seems to believe that the common man is a fool. A dupe. A chump. Even a year after 9/11, Moore wasn't convinced that Al Qaeda (or Bin Laden) was behind the WTC attack. And yet somehow he became convinced that we should have done more in Afghanistan? Good grief. Unfortunately, serious leaders can't wait years to take decisive action.

As Christopher Hitchen writes:

In late 2002, almost a year after the al-Qaida assault on American society, I had an onstage debate with Michael Moore at the Telluride Film Festival. In the course of this exchange, he stated his view that Osama Bin Laden should be considered innocent until proven guilty. This was, he said, the American way. The intervention in Afghanistan, he maintained, had been at least to that extent unjustified. Something—I cannot guess what, since we knew as much then as we do now—has since apparently persuaded Moore that Osama Bin Laden is as guilty as hell. Indeed, Osama is suddenly so guilty and so all-powerful that any other discussion of any other topic is a dangerous "distraction" from the fight against him. I believe that I understand the convenience of this late conversion.

But it's not just there that Moore wants to have it both ways with history. Bush, regularly portrayed as someone anxious to go to war is also shown as being stunned into stupidity and inaction at the news of the WTC attack. Well which is it? Either he's an empty headed moron robot or he's a warmongering neoconservative looking to settle dad's scores.  How about this alternative explanation: Like millions of normal Americans, the attack on the WTC left him stunned and for several minutes he had to contemplate what to do next.  I consider myself pretty sharp but I remember just watching slack-jawed on TV when that second plane struck the World trade center. I was dumfounded. And I was dumfounded for more than 7 minutes.

Most disgusting is Moore's sympathy to Saddam.  According to Moore, Saddam's Iraq was no threat to any American. Really? Is this the same Saddam who tried to have Bush Sr. assassinated?  The same Iraq that regularly fired on US planes patrolling the no-fly zone? Is Moore so out of touch with the "average American" that he can't see how many of us considered Saddam a long term threat that could no longer be tolerated in a post-9/11 world?

Moore, author of "Stupid White Men" can't help but take morbid stabs at the assumed cowardice of white people (perhaps he projects too much of his own self?). In an interview, he opines that if the passengers of those flights on 9/11 had had mostly black people, they would have fought back. What a racist, gratuitous slam on the victims of 9/11.

Hitchen writes:

In a recent interview, he yelled that if the hijacked civilians of 9/11 had been black, they would have fought back, unlike the stupid and presumably cowardly white men and women (and children). Never mind for now how many black passengers were on those planes—we happen to know what Moore does not care to mention: that Todd Beamer and a few of his co-passengers, shouting "Let's roll," rammed the hijackers with a trolley, fought them tooth and nail, and helped bring down a United Airlines plane, in Pennsylvania, that was speeding toward either the White House or the Capitol. There are no words for real, impromptu bravery like that, which helped save our republic from worse than actually befell

But if that doesn't take the cake for disgusting attitudes, Moore has apparently made public his intent to aggressively go after his critics, legally if necessary. Ah, it is important to observe his right to smear his enemies (real and imagined) with impunity but any criticism returned needs to be cut off at the knees eh?  More and more, Moore makes himself the poster child of the left-wing of American culture. Dishonest, disingenuous, cynical, elitist, and hypocritical. 

Speaking as a fellow-Michigander who actually did grow up in a blue-collar area (down river eastern Michigan), I find Moore's elitism disgusting particularly as he tries to portray himself as just a "joe American".

If his movie is a box office hit, it will send a chilling signal that the the American culture has an appetite for petty vindictive overtly left-wing propaganda.  I fear that like his last Oscar-winning drek, that some people will walk out of the theater having bought into the manipulated "facts". I fear a repeat of the same ill-informed thinking of "Agree with him or not, his movie gives you a lot to think about".  Because in reality, they really don't give you much to "think about". Quite the opposite. These are films that are designed to indoctrinate.

30,763 views 90 replies
Reply #26 Top
Sounds as though those communities don't value freedom of speech. How sad for all those victims of censorship who are not allowed to decide for themselves whether something is worth their time or not.
Reply #27 Top
At the onset Id like to point out that I have no political affiliation either left or right or middle. I follow my own heart and consciousness when it comes to voting. In Oz at least it is compulsory to vote, whether you vote for Mickey mouse or any of the numerous political parties that are out there each one of us is obliged to vote, which I think is a greater system than only those who could be bothered to at the time.
I think history has shown us that the general public is usually not shown everything that goes on behind the scenes when it comes to making political decisions or when multinational corporations have a say in what goes on with the major political parties. I think it is important that all sides are open and honest and show what they believe to be true. Whether or not it is true or not to us, at least they get to show their sides. It is then upto each one of us to make up our own minds what is true or not, and noone is going to make it up for you but you.
A good barometer of truth is the thing inside us some call our "little voice" or conscious. Listen to it, it will never let you down. We all have those moments when we look back and think..Gee I wish I had listened to myself.. Well no Bush or Cheney or Moore or anyone is our barometer of truth. What I usually find is that when someone is telling you what is truth..they usually present some facts and while your mouth is open they also insert some non facts. So it is upto each one of us to make that decision, what is truth and what is non truth for us.
Im finding it interesting that the republicans are trying to stop this movie being shown and going out of their way to debunk it. If it is full of lies and distortions then it will show itself to be that when people watch it. You have to give credit to the people watching it to have some intelligence, they will know if it is true to them or not. Follow your own truth, it is really important in these times.
Reply #28 Top
Sounds as though those communities don't value freedom of speech. How sad for all those victims of censorship who are not allowed to decide for themselves whether something is worth their time or not.


I completely agree with you. I'm going to start a protest because the theaters in my city no longer show Mean Girls even though I see it in other theaters still.
Reply #29 Top
Moore makes me sick! How he can pity Saddam is beyond me. That's all I have to say


There was a certain man who pitied the Romans when they tortured him... forgiveness and pity for your enemies are noble emotions.

Sounds as though those communities don't value freedom of speech. How sad for all those victims of censorship who are not allowed to decide for themselves whether something is worth their time or not.


I completely agree with you. I'm going to start a protest because the theaters in my city no longer show Mean Girls even though I see it in other theaters still.


The problem is that patriotism is measured by how you don't want to do something, rather than as a way of uniting the people. The people in these communities who say things like that are setting themselves against and above their fellow Americans, and in doing so are weakening the national fabric. The problem is not that the movie is not showed; that's an entirely economic decision, and probably wise if the townspeople don't have any interest in seeing it. The problem is that the townspeople feel more patriotic than others because they don't consider opposing viewpoints.

There's a great short story about a town like this, with a byline that's something like "tempt us not", but unfortunately I can't remember its name.
Reply #30 Top
It seems like these communities are united against the movie. See? The system works!
Reply #31 Top
Considering the endless right wing talk radio, I find it a hoot that all of a sudden conservatives are outraged about this movie. Where was your outrage over Rush's propaganda?

In our country, there is plenty of exposure for charasmatic, articulate expression of right wing views, and, until recently, there was very little of this for the left wing. Seems to me that Moore is a healthy development for our democracy, stirring up interest in the issues.
Reply #32 Top
Mr. Dragonol's response to this film, beyond the debate about motives, doesn't address the accuracy of some of the facts. That is what I'm interested in. Were the relationships between the Bush family and/or associates and those of the Saudi's and/or bin Laden family accurate as outlined? These issues were presented as a matter of record. Are they true or false?

Mr. Dragonol's assertion is that Mr. Moore is attempting to have it both ways. That is quite similar to the back and white discussion of the issues presented by the administration. In my business career it's not quite that simple. Regardless of the Saudi's purported opposition to the invasion, haven't the interests of both those U.S. busineeses and the Saudi's been served?

Let's get past the maudlin emotion on both sides of the debate. That will eliminate about half of both Mr. Moore's movie and the resulting conservative respose. What are the facts and what is the explanation for them?
Reply #33 Top
Regardless of the feelings you may have for Mr. Moore's film, I have found this film to be a well-executed film in the documentary style. Much like "the Tale of the Weeping Camel", what is documented is being manipulated for the benefit of a story the documentarian wishes to present. However, in both circumstances, the things upon which the story is based is essentially true. That, however, is neither here nor there. What is more important (in my mind, as we are discussing a film) is the quality in which the story is crafted.

Like it or not, Mr. Moore has put together a very compelling story. The second half, in particular, which documents the radicalization of a Flimt, MI woman who loses her son to the Iraq Situation is crafted masterfully. Moore may have an axe to grind, but he does know his craft well. I would not be surprised in the least to see Mr. Moore add a second Oscar to his mantle in 2005.

Everyone should see this movie to make up their own mind, however. And I'm not just saying that because I operate a theater involved in the distribution of the movie.
Reply #34 Top
One more comment I would add is a paraphrasing of somthing I heard from one of the bazillion talking heads on television this past weekend:

You don't go watch 'Farenheit 9/11' for a fair and balanced assessment of the Bush administration, just like you wouldn't watch Fox News for fair and balanced news coverage. You watch it because you either agree with it and want your views confirmed, you watch it because you're curious what the uproar is all about (the same thing that helped drive up interest in 'The Passion of the Christ'), or you watch it because you respect Michael Moore's technical skill as a filmmaker.
Reply #35 Top
Mr. Dragonol's response to this film, beyond the debate about motives, doesn't address the accuracy of some of the facts. That is what I'm interested in. Were the relationships between the Bush family and/or associates and those of the Saudi's and/or bin Laden family accurate as outlined? These issues were presented as a matter of record. Are they true or false?


If I might quite Richard Clarke, who is not known as a fan of Mr. Bush, "[Michael Moore] is making a tempest out of a teacup."

That is to say, those in know know believe the facts asserted by Michael Moore are true, but they also believe they are not really germaine to the discussion we need to be having today.
Reply #36 Top
Fahrenheit 9/11's success or failure will provide a good measure of the political temperature of the United States. In my mind, Michael Moore is a villain. An unscrupulous opportunist who brings new meaning the to the phrase "the end justifies the means".


This statement is retarded. Michael Moore is not a villian. Osama bin Laden is a villian. Michael Moore is just a partisan you disagree with. If you condemn Mr. Moore, you'll need to condemn others such as Ann Coulture, Rush Limbaugh, and Sean Hannity for doing far worse exaggerations and outrageously bold lies, as well as the Republican House of Representatives for wasting our time several years ago with the Clinton Impeachement.

Michael Moore is no worse or better than a host of 'attack dogs' on both sides of the spectrum, Much like Mr. Al Franken, Michael Moore relies on true statements and humor to make his vitriolic attacks. That the truths they use can be skewed more than one way is the essence fof political discourse. While I yearn to see a more civil discourse and for people to remember that political opponents are not your mortal enemy, I also accept that for now this is the nature of things. If you don't like what Mr. Moore has to say, that is fine. We are Americans, and we love to disagree. Calling him a villian, however, is doltish.
Reply #38 Top

What I find doltish is half-witted people like you demanding that their semantical constructs be the end all be all definitions.

Just because my definition of what constitutes a villain has a lower threshold than yours doesn't make me a "dolt". I would cay that Bin Laden is a monster, not merely a villain.  One doesn't have to be a mass murderer, in my book, to be a villain.

Michael Moore, like Franken, takes statistics and facts and then twists them to reach bizarre conclusions.  They are both villains in my opinion. Just like I think Anne Coulter is a villain for her disgusting defense of McCarthy in her trashy "Treason" book.

I consider Moore (like Coulter) a litmus test. Those who buy into his (or her's) twisted view on the world are weak minded IMO. People who have become so partisan that they just lap up propaganda without recognizing what it is.  It makes one recognize how monsters like Goebels could brainwash so many people with his propaganda. It just takes weak minded people willing to believe any nasty thing about their ideological opponents to move them further.

Reply #39 Top
What bothers me is that some people think that because Michael Moore's movie received good reviews (none for journalistic integrity or factual content), that it's message is valid. I understand why somebody would like the movie for entertainment purposes, but those who like the movie for anything more are no better than somebody who'd watch "Space Balls" (a great movie with a compelling story) to confirm that their beliefs about space travel and space politics are true.
Reply #40 Top
What I find doltish is half-witted people like you demanding that their semantical constructs be the end all be all definitions.


If you are going to hurl insults at individuals, you must recognize that these phrases mean different things to different peoples. A failure to recognize this (in a great many peoples- myself included at times) is in part whatt has lead to our sorry political climate. That, in turn, increases rancor and turns legitimate debate into personal attack, as my example above shows.

You can criticize the work, and even the man's opinions, without villifying him. Taking that step to villify the individual both brings you into the same league as he (launching what seem to be partisan attacks while only half-informed or with a skewed basis from which to argue.) Attacking the messanger as well as the message forces people to switch from discussing the matter to discussing the person, which then becomes a case of "is he on my team or not."

I apologize for using words like 'doltish' and 'retarded' in my previous post, but they seem to have made my point abundantly clear- assaulting the messanger needlessly turns what could be a legitimate debate into a name-calling fracas.

Turning to the matter of the debate rather than ruminating on the sad state of discourse in American politics, the statement that I must most strongly disagree with is:


According to Moore, Saddam's Iraq was no threat to any American. Really? Is this the same Saddam who tried to have Bush Sr. assassinated? The same Iraq that regularly fired on US planes patrolling the no-fly zone? Is Moore so out of touch with the "average American" that he can't see how many of us considered Saddam a long term threat that could no longer be tolerated in a post-9/11 world?


The simple fact is Saddam WAS NOT a threat to the United States. Every piece of declassified intelligence that I have read on the matter clearly points to the fact that the embargo and sanctions had effectively contained Saddam. Almost every Intelligence official that I have heard speak on the matter says that Iraq was incapable of doing anything directly against us. The assassination plot that you mentioned was foiled by the Kuwaitis. If Kuwait, not known as a powerhouse in Intelligence circles, was able to keep Saddam's dreams of revenge in check, I think it safe to say that we had little to fear from him.

Now, that's not to say I didn't support the removal of Hussein. I actually support the idea of America exporting democracy to other countries. I would like to see us forcefully confront the military junta in Myanmar and force them to cede power to Aung San Suu Kyi and her democratically-elected government. I want us to do things like this because it is the right and moral thing to do. While I never believed that Iraq was an imminant threat (well, maybe for five minutes after the Powell presentation in the UN), I did support the notion of forcing the man from office. I considered it shameful how the elder Bush abandoned the Kurdish and Shiite rebellion that he encourages after the first Gulf War, and felt we owed it to them to finish the job. Now was not the time, though.

We left Afghanistan unfinished, and should have focused our full military strength in there- rooting out the remnants of al-Qaida and the Taliban, hunting down and capturing Osama bin Laden, breaking up the warlord's stranglehold on much of the country, and rebuilding the country like we promised. Instead, we went on a poorly thought-out and completely unnecessary military adventure. The Bush administration used a dishonoest bill of goods to sell the American people on it, they failed to adaquately plan for the aftermath of the war, and the created a situation in Iraq that served to make the state a greater threat to American security than we would have faced would we have left them alone. We fractured our alliances with Europe and the middle east, spent all of our political capital won in the aftermath of 9/11 on Iraq rather than al-Qaida, and have precious little to show for it as a nation other than a balooning debt and a long-term military commitment that will prevent us from being able to put our full might against our true enemy for up to a decade. What's worse, our misadventure in Iraq will eventually lead us to renegging on our promises to Afghanistan- again- which will only serve to further ruin our credibility in the eyes of the people whose hearts and minds we most desperately need to win.

Now, in this upcoming election, the War on Terror is actually not a top concern for me. I always vote on the economy, on healthcare, and on the environment. I do not see many differences in the approaches Kerry and Bush would adopt on the matter, and so quibbling over how they would handle that seems pointless to me. However, I think that statements that I believe are wrong need to be addressed. (As an aside, I think Gore would have handled the affair better than Bush ever did or Kerry ever will. He is a far more intelligent and thoughtful person than Bush will ever be, and a far more principled person than Kerry seems to be.)
Reply #41 Top
Draginol..

Have you seen the movie yet (July 5th)?

Come to think of it, have you even read any of of Mike's literature? ("Stupid White Men" or "Dude, Where's my country?" specifically?)

Many of the facts in both are backed up by the BBC and other 'honourable' news organisations, in another 'contraversial' book - "Bushwacked" by Molly Ivins and Lou Dubose.

Recommended reading for anyone Bush allows a vote to this time around.
Reply #42 Top
a) Talking about a specific subject you know will get hits due to its nature - possily raising awareness for commercial aspects (ie. stardock).


This is ridiculous, and you should know it. Everyone who's anyone is discussing Moore's new film - should Mr Wardell be denied this because he makes computer games?

Personally as stated elsewhere, I like Moore's style of film-making because it pokes fun at the rich and powerful, which as a middle class person is something I enjoy. After reading Moore's books over the last few days I can easily see why Draginol and BakerStreet consider him a propagandist - even as a strong supporter of democratic liberalism, there were many sections of his work which I know are extremely tricky with the truth. So it is possible to make these arguments without seeing the movie or by reading commentaries on it.

As for holding an opinion without ever seeing a movie, well, if you're anything like I imagine you to be, you probably won't go and see the counter-Moore movie coming out soon, but I imagine you too will have an opinion. I will never watch Titanic, but I know that I would hate it if I did. It's human nature to judge without direct experience.
Reply #43 Top

Patruco: Just because you say something is a fact doesn't make it so. 

But thank you for making my point for me about the far left.  You call me a "retard" and a "dolt" but then you talk about me hurling names around after the fact. And for what? Because I consider Moore a villain.  But you insist that YOUR threshold of what makes someone a villain is objective universal truth. Talk about arrogance.

But apparently that isn't enough for you. You then take it one step further and make the absurd claim that it is a "documented fact" that Iraq and Saddam were not a threat to the US.  Talk about taking something that is extremely subjective and trying to turn it into a "Fact".

I think Moore is a villain because he is a propagandist. And anyone who buys into his tripe I highly recommend them responding that they believe that way so that I can prevent them from commenting on articles I write that are more substantive.

Reply #44 Top
please delete my last post. It makes no sense out of context.
Reply #45 Top
Now, in this upcoming election, the War on Terror is actually not a top concern for me. I always vote on the economy, on healthcare, and on the environment.


Well for your sake I surely hope that there are no more terrorist attacks in America. I'd hate to see what that would do to the economy. Good to see that you have your priorities in order!
Reply #46 Top
I believe that Fahrenheit 911 has 27 out of 33 positive reviews


An article originally from the Washington Times suggests that some are not happy at all with Moore's propaganda piece.

The family of U.S. Air Force Maj. Gregory Stone was shocked to learn that video footage of the major's Arlington National Cemetery burial was included by Michael Moore in his movie "Fahrenheit 9/11." Maj. Stone was killed in March 2003 by a grenade that officials said was thrown into his tent by Sgt. Hasan K. Akbar, who is on trial for murder. "It's been a big shock, and we are not very happy about it, to say the least," Kandi Gallagher, Maj. Stone's aunt and family spokeswoman, tells Washington Times reporter Audrey Hudson. "We are furious that Greg was in that casket and cannot defend himself, and my sister, Greg's mother, is just beside herself," Miss Gallagher said. "She is furious. She called him a 'maggot that eats off the dead.' " The movie, described by critics as political propaganda during an election year, shows video footage of the funeral and Maj. Stone's fiancee, Tammie Eslinger, kissing her hand and placing it on his coffin. The family does not know how Mr. Moore obtained the video, and Miss Gallagher said they did not give permission and are considering legal recourse. She described her nephew as a "totally conservative Republican" and said he would have found the film to be "putrid." "I'm sure he would have some choice words for Michael Moore," she said. "Michael Moore would have a hard time asking our family for a glass of water if he were thirsty."

Miss Gallaghers discription of Moore as a maggot that eats off the dead is, in my opinion, fairly accurate.
Reply #47 Top
Michael Moore does not have a subtle bone in his body. In addition, he's no great intellect. He's sort of a bumbling left wing slob, an associative thinker. He's not all that different in style from Rush Limbaugh. Where Limbaugh gives the right exactly what they want without really having to prove any of his points, Moore aims at the left.

The first two-thirds of the movie are pretty incoherent. Who cares if Bin Ladens' cousins left the country? Who knows how far the Bush's compliticty with the Saudis reaches? But the last third of the movie is really good. The scenes of the American military in Iraq, the scenes of wounded soldiers, coffins, bombed Iraqis and a middle American mother who lost her son in Iraq all present a much different viewpoint than the one we were subject to by the mainstream media who acted, for the most part, as cheerleaders for the war until quite recently.

If the entire movie were built around that last third it might have been verey powerful indeed but as is, most of those on the right won't get past the first third if they watch it, and most will never watch it. As a recent poll shows, those who watch Fox news do not watch CNN. Those who watch CNN do not watch Fox.
Reply #48 Top

The family of U.S. Air Force Maj. Gregory Stone was shocked to learn that video footage of the major's Arlington National Cemetery burial was included


Moore is completely void of endearing quality as far as I can tell.  He uses footage without regard.  He takes quotes totally out of context to serve whatever purpose he has at the time.  He even disregarded Ray Bradbury who dissaproved of the title.  He is a total scum ball and I am with LW in the sentiment that I wouldn't willingly put a dime in his pocket.  There is no way in hell I would lend financial support to him spreading his crap.

Reply #49 Top
I think the case could be made that a pro-Bush movie simply couldn't get made right now in pro-Kerry Hollywood. I don't think you'd have gotten any backing for it, and I doubt any studio would have made it. Moore has openly stated that he hopes his movie is a deciding factor in the election. Soros has spent millions on moveon.org and such.

When will people see that this is all really just soft money for Kerry? Of course he is running a "clean" campaign. He has Soros, Moore and the like sponsering a global smear campaign and he doesn't have to spend a dime for it.

All I can say is if Kerry can't win a campaign with the kind of money and effort that is being moved under the table, he is either devoid of public appeal or completely incompetant.


Reply #50 Top
First off...while Moore has the right..to an extent to make this recent piece of utter horseshit...opps I mean propoganda..opps I mean documentary..opps I mean...what is the current name used to describe his movie this time?....that doesnt mean I feel the need to put another dollar into that socialist pigs bank account....as to its validity....sad to say Moore once again uses half-truths and outright lies....to advance his political and social agenda....remember...he considers americans stupid....the insurgents in iraq akin to the minute men of our revolution....and has said that he wants more US deaths in iraq....this is the problem with the left in this country....and why the dems are learning that their overall voter base is in sharp decline....conservative and swing voters are quite the opposite...increasing.....

in the end Moore has become exactly what he so much hates....a rich, old, white man.....