Take down your flag, we don't like it..

The death of freedom to fly the American Flag..

http://www.ccfj.net/flyoldgloryOulton.html
This is the story of Richard Oulton, an American, a veteran, and a victim of the Ameircan Communist..the Leftys.

Richard Oulton put up a flag pole in his yard, and flew the American Flag and a purple heart flag. For those of you armchair libs, thats a medal you get for being wounded in time of war. Mr. Oulton was awared that medal while he was a member of the "Walking Dead Marines", the 1st BN, 9th Marine Regiment in Vietnam. His unit started out with 800 marines and lost 605 during the war. This unit suffered the highest casulty rate of any unit in the war. He has every right to be proud, and fly those flags, he earned it with his own blood.

In Richmond, Va., Richard Oulton's homeowner's association demanded his flagpole come down. But he said no way.

"To take it down now would be a total dishonor and an insult to everyone that has ever stood for the flag. If that flag comes down now, the next place it will fly will be over my coffin," Oulton said.

He's been raising the flag ever since he was a medic in Vietnam and flew the stars and stripes over his bunker. "I'm just trying to express my patriotism, my love for my country," he said.

Oulton is an attorney. When he moved into the Florida community he says he checked to see if there were any restrictions on flying the flag.

"There was no reference to flags or flagpoles anyplace," Oulton said.

So he put up a big flagpole next to the big home he built, on three lots. His neighbors say they don't object.

They say it's nice, it matches the house, and say it's an asset to the community.
(DID you get that, the neighbors had NO PROBLEM with the pole or the Flags, in fact they liked it!!))

Objection to Flagpole

But the homeowner's association board said the flagpole's too big.

"We had no idea someone would erect a flagpole that large when the guidelines were written," said Birdie Knuckols, former member of the association board.

Since the association guidelines did not mention flagpoles — the board instead ruled it was an unapproved structure. Later they adopted rules allowing flagpoles — but only small ones, no larger than 6 feet — and required them to be attached to the house.

"It's not an issue of patriotism. All we are asking Mr. Oulton to do is show his patriotism within the guidelines that everyone else in the community is willing to live by," Knuckols said.

Planned communities can set these rules because they're private, and many homeowners love the rules because they like the way the regulations make their communities look nice and uniform. They say this raises property values.

But sometimes the people on the boards of the homeowners' associations are very controlling. And the law is on their side. So, in 1999 the board took its complaint about Oulton's flagpole to court, and won. While he appealed, he was allowed to keep the flagpole up.

Oulton said, "I don't understand what the problem is. It's a property right that I have to fly this flag. It's a free speech right that I have to fly this flag."

He dedicated the flagpole to the Marine unit he served with in Vietnam, a unit dubbed the walking dead because three-quarters of its members were killed.

"I had a lot of guys die in my arms and once I put that plaque out there and said this flag will always fly because I owe it to my boys, my walking dead Marines … I owe it to my boys," Oulton said.

But it won't fly anymore. He took it down in March. All that remains is a hole in the ground, a broken plaque and mementos left by visiting veterans.

Oulton lost his case in local court, and then higher courts rejected his appeals. The presiding judge told Oulton, "You agreed not to erect a structure without prior approval. That's it. No more, no less. You violated that agreement." After a four-year battle, Oulton has lost his flag, and $150,000 to the association in legal fees.

Is this not a perfect example of the way in which the freaks, and deviants in this country take away our freedoms one at a time? Is this not a crime! Think about it, the neighbors LIKED the pole and flags, but some idiot with to much time on his hands and to little brain decided that he didn't like it, can this truely have been an American who felt that way? Does this not make your blood boil that they would go so far as to force him to remove them?? I can tell you where I would have told them to put the flag pole. Then they would have had to come take it down by force.

Another small part of American Freedom and the right to express your love of this Country died that day.
The like shows you pictures of this case and a little more in-depth info. I mistakingly said the ACLU was involved inthis case, they were not to my knowledge (now I know this) but this is just the type of thing thye would do. But this was just done by local idiots and leftys.. They must have had troubled childhoods and blame the USA for all the welfare checks they are forced to get.
40,218 views 127 replies
Reply #1 Top
I read about this case. It really is a sad thing.

You want me to take down my flag? Come and tell me to my face! And, you'd best be prepared to take it. I was wounded in combat serving my country. I had my friends die beside me. I won't take down my flag even if a court ordered it.

If you don't like the American flag I shed my blood for, live someplace else. As far as I'm concerned, screw you.
Reply #2 Top

I think I'm as patriotic as the next person. But I tend to agree with the association on this. It's not that his neighbors and association were unpatriotic or didn't respect the flag, it's that when you move into an association you agree to abide by a certain set of rules.

My association doesn't explicitly say you can't build a gigantic flag pole in my front yard. But the spirit of the agreement is pretty clear - don't build structures without prior approval.  If you want to build these kinds of structures, you shouldn't live in a neighborhood association.

I don't like when people try to play the patriotism flag to claim victimhood anymore than I like seeing people play the racism card to play victim.  I would have objected to a huge flag pole and huge flag across the street from my house too. And no one who knows me would ever accuse me of being unpatriotic.

Reply #3 Top

Umm, they didn't want him to take down the flag, they wanted him to take down the flagpole.  There are some important questions unasked here.  How tall was the flagpole, is the most important one.  Was it the standard height?  8-12ft?  Was it larger?  Was it big enough to pick up radio transmissions from the Martian orbiter?  There are some cities which have statutes on the size of flagpoles, if this was one of them, the neighborhood has a point, if not, then, as the others have said, screw 'em.


This still isn't a patriotism issue, or even about the flag, it's about the NHA being too much of a pansy to go talk to the guy, instead of taking him to court.


Cheers

Reply #4 Top
I don't see why the flagpole would be an issue. Sorry, maybe I have different sensebilities (sp?) than others but I just don't get i.

I don't like when people try to play the patriotism flag to claim victimhood


Just what the hell does THAT mean? I'm sorry Brad but that statement deserves some explaination.
Reply #5 Top

If you want to build a huge flag pole, don't live in a subdivision.  Most new subs also don't allow fences, so don't buy a house in a sub if you want a fence.  I live in the country because I like having a fenced in yard for my dogs and a huge nautical flag pole.

He would have been better off selling his house and moving to someplace that doesn't have association rules.

Reply #6 Top
The interesting thing about this situation, I believe, is that it doesn't reflect the typical liberal vs. conservative situation. I think it's more along the lines of conservative vs. conservative.

Oulton was an obvious conservative: a patriotic American veteran who wanted to fly the American flag on a big friggin' pole. Nothing liberal about that.

However, the community association whatever board also acted rather conservative. They had a STRICT set of rules governing their community that they ENFORCED. They wanted the man to CONFORM to the community. They were AGAINST something that was DIFFERENT FROM THE NORM. I find more conservative ideals in the association board than liberal ones.

Pretty interesting situation though. A stubborn conservative veteran who wants to fly a flag against a stubborn conservative community board who wants to community to look uniform.
Reply #7 Top
This is exactly the reason why I will NEVER buy a home in a community run by a homeowner's association. If I'm spending hundreds of thousands of MY hard earned dollars on the biggest investment of my life, I'll be damned if I'm going to have a self-serving group of people tell me what I can and cannot do to my own home.

And to think that people pay for the right to be a part of a homeowner's association. What a crock of shit. You know what, I'm willing to take the hit on property values in order to maintain my ability to do things that I want to my property.

-- B
Reply #8 Top
They had a STRICT set of rules governing their community that they ENFORCED


Ah, but you missed the point. They didn't have a rule against it. That really is the point. They decided to MAKE a rule against it after the fact. A judge decided to back them on this. THAT is the real point.
Reply #9 Top
They didn't have a rule against it. That really is the point. They decided to MAKE a rule against it after the fact. A judge decided to back them on this. THAT is the real point.


So basically the governing body of the complex thought the overly tall flagpole did not "jive" with the complex aesthetic so they looked for a way to get rid of it. A normal response for the gated community.

Since they had no rules specifically about flagpoles, they determined it was a structure. Which it was, and that meant it would have to come down. With that rule already agreed to, they then made another rule regarding flagpole to prohibit a reccurence.

IG


Reply #11 Top
Me too Joe
Reply #12 Top

MasonB: What I am saying is that the issue isn't patriotism.

Secondly, people choose to live in a neighbhorhood association specifically so that people won't do nutso things on their houses. I live in a neighborhood association and am damn glad I do. I don't want to have people keeping their camper in their drive way all day.  I don't want people building some big ugly wood shed or whatever in their back without having it approved first. I dont' want somene building some big old above ground pool next to me.  And for that matter, I don't like fences either.   Some of you probably think I'm nuts. Good for you. You don't have to live in an association. But for people like me, that's why they have them. And they're quite popular.

Mason, you're just plain wrong about your understanding of associations. It doesn't work the way you imply. Associations don't let you build structures without prior approval. They don't have to put together some list of things you can't build.

Neighborhood assocations aren't for everyone. This guy should simply have not bought a house in one.

Reply #13 Top

The presiding judge told Oulton, "You agreed not to erect a structure without prior approval. That's it. No more, no less. You violated that agreement."


Which part of that statement doesn'tanyone seem to understand?  It's not about what was flying from the pole; it was about the pole.  It was about his erecting said pole without requesting permission and approval from the Housing Association, something that he had a contractural obligation to do.


This isn't about patriotism or the lack thereof; this is about breach of contract. 

Reply #14 Top
I think you are way off on your "lefty" comment. I am extremely "left" and i would have absolutely no objection to that flag pole and neither would any of my liberal friends. People in these kind of neighborhoods are really anal about what gets put up and how and where it is put up. I highly doubt its part of any leftist conspiracy.
Reply #15 Top

This reminds me of an episode of Frasier where Frasier's nemesis convinced the apartment complex to drape the US flag across the building, much of which would hinder Frasier's view from his balcony.

Reply #16 Top
We have communities like that around here. The previous generation got uppity about your yard and spend untold hours in bermuda shorts and tall black socks pruning theirs. I used to think to myself how they must be trying to compensate for what the endless hours of being a drone had done to them.

Now, it is the opposite. Those communities are replaced with people who want every house to look alike so they don't have to worry about it. When they come out of their houses to get into their identical cars, they all look alike too. Drones, weird mammalian insect hybrids. I'd prefer neighbors with a rusty car up on blocks, but unfortunately I don't have the guts to completely shrug off this shroud of suburbia. At least I can set up a damn flagpole if I like.

Sad day when people appreciate uniformity over freedom and individuality. Maybe it does have a bit to do with the flag. This kind of anal retention seems to cross all political boundaries, though.


Reply #17 Top
You can see the flag pole and judge for yourself if you think its to big or not. Follow the link at the bottom of the article. I think the flag pole was very tastful myself. Another point that is missing from some of the comments is that there was no rule prohibiting the flag pole. Second the State in which this all occurred passed a law that prevented associations from forcing people to take down american flags. But the judge went on to rule that the LAW did not apply to this one case. So he was being selective. Read the web page link and it gives you a lot more insight in to just how screwed up this whol thing was.

SOME FACTS :

Judge Harris rules that: The "Wyndham Flag Law" does not apply to Wyndham.
In the January 2000 Virginia General Assembly: Senator Bolling sponsored the Wyndham Flag Bill to make the developer attempt to ban our American flag as a "Visual Nuisance" illegal. The bill passed the 2000 General Assembly on a unanimous vote and was later signed by Governor Gilmore and became "The Wyndham Flag Law."

Some people living in homeowners’ associations tend to have an unhealthy preoccupation with their neighbors and feel compelled to keep close tabs on them. Their justification for their officiousness and intrusion is to protect property values by ensuring conformity and uniformity. And so, having wrapped themselves in self righteousness, they proceed to turn these artificially uniform enclaves into mini war zones.

One such battlefield is Wyndham, an upscale development in the Richmond, Virginia suburbs. The object currently in the Wyndham association crosshairs happens to be the flagpole from which the Oultons fly an American flag, a flag meant to honor the 604 men in Richard’s battalion who were killed in action during the Viet Nam war. And because of the high casualties they sustained in combat, the battalion earned the nickname of “The Walking Dead”. The recipient of a Purple Heart and a Combat Action Ribbon, Richard was awarded a Congressional Veteran Commendation this past November for the honorable service he performed while a member of the Armed Forces.

But alas, homeowners’ associations are not known for their tolerance of patriots or flags, although the politically correct ones insist it is not the flag they object to per se, and omit any specific language relating to the flag.

Wyndham is no different.

As Richard tells it, being an attorney, he read all 250 pages of The Declaration of Covenants, Conditions & Restrictions prior to buying their house. Nothing he read caused him to rethink the purchase he was about to make. Nowhere in the “book of restrictions” were the words flag or flagpole to be found. “I took the CC&Rs at their word”, he said.


This outraged and upset many people, including members of the legislature who responded by unanimously voting in The Wyndham Flag Bill. This statute basically provides that no homeowners association can prohibit a homeowner from flying a flag unless they disclose it at the time of sale. Despite the fact that the new law was enacted specifically for the Wyndham flag case and was called the Wyndham Flag Law, the judge ruled that the law did not apply to the Oultons’ case. He ignored the



"Visual Nuisance" ?
Click on Picture to see big version!


law. He also dismissed the Oultons’ arguments claiming their defenses “complicated the case”. And, just for good measure, Judge Harris changed his mind at the last minute and denied them a trial by a jury of their peers. With no laws to protect them, no jury to decide the facts in their case, and with none of the facts “complicating the case”, the Oultons, predictably, lost.
After their attempts to appeal to both the Virginia and United States Supreme courts failed, they found themselves back in Judge Harris’ court room. With no higher authority left to turn to, the Oultons ultimately lost their battle. Judge Harris ordered them to remove their flagpole and the flag by March 1, 2003 or to be prepared to face the consequences.

Should the “consequences” include a stay in the county jail, as Richard suspects, they’ll have to make arrangements for their two small children. With no family in the area, they face some pretty tough decisions. They also face the possibility of losing the 6 month infant they are in the process of adopting.


At the base of the flagpole is an inscribed bronze plaque that starts with a promise,” I will always fly these flags, as “I owe it to my boys”, to my “Walking Dead Marines’”. Many of the men in Richard’s battalion died in his arms, and by taking down the flag he believes he would be betraying his men and betraying the ultimate price they paid to protect our right to fly the flag.
While their fellow homeowners in Wyndham do not object to the flagpole or the flag, and have signed petitions in support of the Oultons, once the board started beating the drums of war, and the attorneys got involved, the will of the members themselves seems to matter not a whit.

Wow this makes me want to kick some lawyers butt. The neighbors signed a petition in favor of the flag pole!!! And the judge still was an idiot. God help us..
Reply #18 Top
"This is the story of Richard Oulton, an American, a veteran, and a victim of the Ameircan Communist..the Leftys."

man, what are the odds he'd move into a town area run by a home owners' association composed entirely of lefties?

{i couldn't find a 1600x1400 pixel image of a rolly-eye emoticon. please use your imaginations instead. thank you.}
Reply #19 Top

I read the whole discussion up there.


It seems that this guy has the option of flying the flag(s) on a short pole off of his house.  He should do that.


If the homeowners association wanted a huge flagpole in the community they could either build one, or open up a Perkins in the middle of the neighborhood.

Reply #20 Top

Bakerstreet: As one of those "drones" I can assure you that where I live, each house looks quite different and our cars are quite different. We aren't robbed of individuality. Associations are in response to ineffectual city ordinances (or ones never enforced). 

There is nothing "individualistic" about the guy who leaves his boat parked on the street for 3 months.  There's nothing special about the guy who build a big half-assed wood fence around their yard.  There's nothing wonderful about the guy who builds a big old tool shed in his backyard that he rarely mows. And there's nothing wonderful about a guy who builds a 25 foot tall flag poll in their front yard.

Like I said, associations aren't for everyone.  People who live in them are people who have agreed to live by a specific set of rules because they awnt those rules. We don't go into other people's neighborhoods and demand they change the way they do things. Why should we be asked to change the rules after the fact.  You ever see a 25 foot flag pole up close? It's a pretty major structure.

Incidentally, we have plenty of houses in our neighborhoods that have flags out (including ours depending on the day). I believe there are also people with flag poles -- up to 12 foot.  12 foot is pretty tall too.  Go measure 25 foot sometime. That's how big this guy's flag pole was. Now imagine how big those flags were (two of them).

Reply #21 Top

flag

There's a picture of it. Get the picture. That's a pretty big flag pole. Now you say, what's the big deal. Fine, then why can't I build an above ground pool? Why can't I have a big old satellite dish on my roof to get in 450 channels? Why can't I park my motor home in my drive way all year round?  You know why? Because if you live in an association, you agreed not to build these things or do these things.

Reply #22 Top
"There is nothing "individualistic" about the guy who leaves his boat parked on the street for 3 months. There's nothing special about the guy who build a big half-assed wood fence around their yard. There's nothing wonderful about the guy who builds a big old tool shed in his backyard that he rarely mows. And there's nothing wonderful about a guy who builds a 25 foot tall flag poll in their front yard."


I should jot that down. Wouldn't want to make the leap and define "wonderful" for myself. Those all sound like personal choices made by individuals that harm no one... unless you are overly interested in "standards". Thus my point about standardization.

I concede the point. They are right, he is wrong. He shouldn't have moved into that sort of neighborhood to begin with. Much better to live among folks who have enough to occupy their minds without resorting to "Queer Eyeing" the neighbor's property. I can't imagine being bored enough to wonder how long my neighbor's boat was parked there or how long his pole is... ur, how tall it is. You know what I mean.

"We don't go into other people's neighborhoods and demand they change the way they do things."


If you don't, kudos. I live in a historical city with a lot of age and heaps of new money. Communities around here constantly "absorb" others, change zoning and impose neighborhood associations on people that have lived there a long time.

I have whitebread analville creeping up from Beaumont to the south and Latin America creeping down from the horse farms to the northwest. I drive through both neighborhoods regularly, and I am praying that the Mexicans get here first.




( P.S. Brad, I know I am venomous, look over it. Just old wounds that have nothing to do with you. Yours was the wrong post to read at the wrong time, no offense intended. Just venting. )

Reply #23 Top
It's very odd. While it may be a case of removal, the neighbors wanted it to stay up. Can't they just leave it up?

I would like to have a community of reasonable laws, such as no leaving a junk car out for years, but no control freak laws such as no displaying a "nuisance" American flag.
Reply #24 Top
Reply By: russellmz2Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2004"This is the story of Richard Oulton, an American, a veteran, and a victim of the Ameircan Communist..the Leftys."man, what are the odds he'd move into a town area run by a home owners' association composed entirely of lefties?{i couldn't find a 1600x1400 pixel image of a rolly-eye emoticon. please use your imaginations instead. thank you.}


Actually it only took two leftys to screw this poor guy, the judge and the idiot that complained in the first place..
Reply #25 Top
There's a picture of it. Get the picture. That's a pretty big flag pole. Now you say, what's the big deal. Fine, then why can't I build an above ground pool? Why can't I have a big old satellite dish on my roof to get in 450 channels? Why can't I park my motor home in my drive way all year round? You know why? Because if you live in an association, you agreed not to build these things or do these things.


Actually I think if you check you will find that his association rules did not prohibit the flag pole. They may have rules against the above ground pool or other things. He argued from the what I can gather that the association rules did not say he could not do this. Its an issue of once he did some idiot (it only takes one) complained to the association. Then once in court the State passed a law that said no association could make someone take down an American Flag or prohibit the flying of one. Yet the Judge hearing this case said that did not apply to him, even though the Law that was passed was named after his cause. Go figure that out. The State Government says you can, the judge says you cant, your neighbors say you can, the complaining commie says you can't, 2 vs's 100's and they win. THAT SUCKS. Its because in this issue the Judge was very unreasonable and even refused to allow this guy a trial by jury. Ya lets deprive him of due process and a trial by his peers. The Judge did that because he knew he (the judge) would lose and the jury would say it was OK to fly the flag on the flag pole.

Plain and simple, the peverted view of one commie, and one lefty Judge overrides the wishes of hundereds of citizens. Of course, the left wins again..