Thoughts and analysis on TA as of beta 4

Terra vs. Thala AAR

from GalCiv2 Forums
Hey Galciv II fans. Well I've been slowly sinking my teeth into the new betas of TA. Its not finished or balanced yet, but if you haven't tried it I will happily recommend the expansion to those still on the fence.

Recently Beta 4 was released that packed a bunch of changes. The one that appealed to me the most was the inclusion of the Thalans and their unique techs. The Thalans have been my favorite race since I bought my first shiny copy of Galciv II, and I couldn't wait to see their new tech tree. In DL the Thalans were very well rounded, and a nice counter to the Yor which were one of the other most powerful races. In DA the Thalans really came into their own. With Super Hive and huge production and military bonuses, the Thalans became (IMO) the most powerful race in the game. Not even a custom race with Super Hive could come close to the sheer "rush" power or beauty of a well played Thalan empire. So what would the new TA tech tree bring to the race?

I played several games with the Thalans at a couple of difficulty levels, and overall am disappointed with them in their current state. But hey, what are betas for if not feedback, right?

I decided the best way to highlight my frustration with the current Thalan setup was to do another (my second) AAR. So here goes. First I try to play a Metaverse game. I get an error that some string is not defined. Sigh. Betas. Oh well, this will be a normal sandbox game.

First off I'm going to be playing as the Terrans. The Terrans are sort of the base point, the starting race with the "familiar" tech tree that other races are sort of deviations from or variations on. The new Thalan selection of buildings eviscerates their super ability making it very weak, so I decide to turn tech trading off to minimize any advantage my super diplomat ability might confer, to try and even things out. The new Thalans seem to be a "we can only develop 2 planets in the first year" race at this point, so I select a tiny map with rare everything. I hope that by pitting Terra against Thala in a one on one I can maximize the "super planet" bonuses the Thalans seem to get. I remove all minor races because those are usually a player advantage.


At this point I've given my enemy Thalans about every advantage I can think of going in for a quick game. In theory they should be able to completely outproduce me with super projects, and our superabilities are both nullified.

Now on to bonuses. It is vogue of late to suggest the game can only be played by taking all of the economic/morale/pop growth bonuses, so I immediately resolve to take none of them. I first choose huge soldiering and weapons and range bonuses... but then think better of it and decide on +2 speed and +20% weapons with my 10 ability points. I consider for a bit whether to take the war party or technologist party as neither supplies income. Thalan populations are small enough I decide against the war party because the soldiering bonus will help me too much (same reason I dropped the soldiering bonus from my abilities) - and so go with the technologist party. My starting abilities look like this:


Finally time to select my foe, this is easy enough. And suicidal for the difficulty and I'm off.


So what would I get?

Well, before I'm even able to look at my home planet a message pops up:


So the Thalans have decided to make Thala the one planet to rule them all. Ok, good for them. Now a look at my bonuses:

Not bad. I have a decent spread of abilities, but nothing spectacular. A couple +100% research tiles, a +300% factory tile, and waaaay too many farm bonuses. I decide on just building the new human super project because it doesn't have an upkeep on one of the research tiles, and I queue up a few more buildings.

Not that the queue matters. I put my capacity at 100%, and my research at 100%, and also put my espionage spending at full (just between us, I think I just won with this move. And I haven't even hit the turn button yet). Nothing I queued will get built. I don't see where the Thalans are yet, but I'm pretty centrally located, so they should turn up soon. I send my colonists to Mars, put my survey and mine ship on auto, and let the cage match begin!


Well, I set about researching to the all powerful Planetary Invasion, as well as rush buying things while I have starting money. A couple new constructors let me grab an economic and research resource nearby. I'm also able to develop my planet. I rush buy a research lab on my other +100% tile, and a factory on that +300% manufacturing tile. I still have never taken my sliders off of 0/0/100. Eight turns in my super powerful Terra now looks like this:

Cower in fear before my two research stations and technologist party!!

Also eight turns in I make first contact with the Thalans. Looks like they are right next door, and they grabbed a planet just 8 spaces from Earth! Suddenly I'm wishing I had done a better job scouting and had maybe rush bought one colonizer instead of those constucters. Oh well, I knew I was going to cede the planetary tile bonus to the enemy right off the bat.


So what to do? There are only military victories enabled here, so I can't really use my diplomacy to sue for peace. Time to scout out the Thala. I send my survey ship in the general direction of the Thalan influence, hoping to find Thala. And voila, just two turns later I discover Thala. Time to cripple their super planet. I already have two spies, and I set them out to do their dirty deeds....


Ah, except I don't even have two good targets yet, so I just nab the economy building. The Thalans have apparently decided to try and kill me with embassies. A sneaky plan on their part. Quickly looking over their other world all I find are more embassies.... So I decide spy #2 is just going to stay at home. I spend turns 10 and 11 kicking out a couple of troop transports... it's ON!!

By turn 12 it looks like its time to fight. My survey ship has discovered that the Thalans actually also picked up a third planet (Westerfield IV), so I'm not only out tiled and out bonused... I'm just straight outnumbered. If I were facing the Korath I'd be in real trouble. Fortunately, the AI in its colonizing zeal has failed to leave defenders in orbit. Sander IV is ripe for the picking.


As the Terrans I have huge diplomacy bonuses, so I briefly consider using my huge bonus against the Thalan -30% diplomacy to try and get some goodies before war starts. But, well, that isn't really my style. After a moment of consideration I decide this game has already gone on long enough... this cat and mouse posturing is over. Attack!!

The first of my transport ships lands and easily conquers the surprised Thalan colonists.


The Thalans respond to my declaration of war by building Xanthium Hull Plating!! What to do, what to do? But wait a minute, the Plating Factory can be sabatoged by spies. I finally have a worthy tile to place that second spy.


My miner finishes building the last asteroid, and its time to upgrade him into a transport as well. I do have a problem however. Both Thala and Westerfield IV have orbiting "defenders". Thala has a pair of scouts, and Westerfield has a constructor and a colonizer. For my transports to hit home, I'm going to need some sort of attack ship. Fortunately I still have never taken myself off of 100% research, and those two initial research buildings are doing themselves proud. I research up the missile line as they are pretty cheap, and design the ULTIMATE EMPIRE DESTROYER ship:


And people say tiny ships are useless. Ha! I am starting to run out of my starting money at this point though, so I'm going to have to act fast. 16 turns in is no time to dally. After my super ship is designed, I quickly rush buy one of the suckers before my economy goes in the red.

Through the next two turns my economy does sink alarmingly fast... but I know the Thalans will rue the day some game designer made their military techs too slow to unlock! I press my advantage. My super 2 attack bomber easily blows away the defenders of Westerfield, and my second transport lands to liberate the planet in the name of Earth.


Well, so now it is time for the Thala homeworld, their super planet with all of those galactic achievements on it. A tall order. While I now have 4 planets, only 1 has any working buildings, the others are smashed ruins covered in embassies... or worse, like Mars, completely barren save for the starting colony. I've wasted money rush buying two factories, one on Earth on the bonus tile, and one on Sander, and yet I've never once dropped off of 100% research to actually fund those factories. My economy is in ruins, my planets are useless... and I only have 3 ships left. An simple tiny bomber, a troop transport, and a survey vessel. To face the combined might of Thala and their future techs now I'd have to be mad.

Well, I never claimed sanity as one of my virtues.

On turn 20 I decide to take my chances and attack Thala. Interestingly, I also decide to stop research war techs and get onto an infrastructure line. My spies have been killed, so no longer can I stop the Thalan juggernaut by destroying buildings. I attack, and mercifully my troops route the Bug soldiers:


Well, it was a rough, tension filled edge of your seat 20 turn Suicidal game... but in the end the day was won:


Too bad it wasn't a metaverse game. Of course, if it had been a metaverse game I would have sat around score grinding for 5 years after having cornered the Thalans on one planet... and I wouldn't have left them with Thala to rebuild from. The quick kill is a little more satisfying.

Stay tuned, next up my analysis of the game and the beta and the Thalans!

~ Wyndstar
aars
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Reply #1 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Analysis

Well, OK, the AI has always had problems if when it colony rushes you simultaneously tranport rush. It was part of why my last longish post here was on the supremacy of the Planetary Invasion tech.

Still, I know the AI is going to get a bunch of improvements and that is part of the reason the release date keeps getting pushed back.

Overall I REALLY like the improvements to the tech trees/buildings that TA offers. Its obviously not a finished product, so little bugs and errors still creep in. Overall the balance is shaping up OK. The money seems to be a little all over the place, in one patch we had piles and piles off of influence, under the latest patch you struggle if you are flying around with more than 12 ships. I'm sure a middle ground will be reached (or the Drengin will be terminably crippled, or both). I like the new fleet modules, its a good idea. Some of the new tech trees have some interesting choices (Terrans can't get Starbase projection I until after starbase fortification III. That feels a little backwards... but it may just be because I'm used to the old tech trees).

Remembering what every tech in every tech tree does takes a lot of work because it is all so new, and if you haven't memorized it you find yourself quickly lost in the trade screen as loads of curious sounding improvements with asterisks sit ripe for the taking. Moving bonuses out of race profiles and into building selection was a good move... although I have yet to see how this balances with the Custom Race. In fact, Custom Races don't appear to be available, which is a shame, as they are to this day one of my favorite new features from DA.

In short, the improvements are great, I'd like some more info on the tech trading screen but it isn't unplayable, and the ease of making money (which really sets the difficulty) has fluctuated too much patch to patch to get a good read on it. All is working well, except for the Thalans.

Now, I'm probably biased because I love the Thalans so I want them to be one of the best races not one of the worst races. Still, the new Thalans are seriously underpowered for several reasons.

The main reason is aside from one so-so super project they start out with no way to build either factory or manufacturing buildings. Perhaps you could trade to get tech (if tech trading wasn't turned off), but seeing as you need trade it is the one thing gleefully taken from you, as the Thalans are saddled with a -30% diplomacy penalty, worse even than the Drengin. Worse still is that their supposed "super" end techs are not really that great, and require such a huge investment in research they are hard to unlock. In fact, without good research buildings they struggle to ever build more than embassies before someone can be bothered to go knock them out.

I played three suicidal games with the new Thalans and was never able to survive through the second year... it always took less than 50 turns for my civ to be wiped. Indeed, my AAR is designed to show just how simplistic the Thalans are to beat in their current incarnation. If you think that somewhere I could have given them more of an advantage in the map setup while still playing to win, I'm open. But I was trying to give them every advantage possible in setting up the game.

Losing research buildings means that they cannot unlock their cool techs quickly enough. Losing manufacturing buildings means that Super Hive really only gives a range bonus, which is just barely better than Super Spy only because Super Spy is a penalty rather than a bonus. The three super projects are OK, but not game breakingly good, and there are enough other penalties associated with the race now that they are just uncompetitive. Now, its a single player game, Stardock doesn't have to balance the Thalans, they can just be the new suck race. But I really wish the Iconians would have stayed at the bottom of the pack.

Not only do the Thalans start with only a few super projects, no other (normal) buildings, no tech, nothing... but EACH line you want to get into has an expensive precursor tech. I knew I could beat the Thalans easily in a one on one because the AI is faced with the same Hobson's choice I was game after game. If I go for the expensive military precursor techs (and MUCH later on they have some sweet military techs. Have never seen them in action on suicidal though) so that I can wage war early, I'm left all game with nothing but starting colonies and embassies. If I go for economy techs I can't produce anything or fight wars while I wait for my economy to get going. And finally, if I go for production buildings it is the slowest of the three options, and I end up with average buildings with HUGE upkeep, and I have neither a military or an economy to run the buildings. Even with suicidal bonuses the AI wasn't going to make it through those lose/lose/lose choices against even a basic setup for a normal race no matter what I gave it.


Solutions? Well, I always have an opinion. I do think there is a simple and easy solution that can quickly bring the Thalans back to form while still offering a fairly radical alternate playstyle. That is to make the Hyperion Matrix the standard building in the Thalan force. Currently you can only ever build one such building, and it produces 16 industrial AND 16 research AND 8 farm units. You don't ever really want to build it on Thala because then you go to an unworkable (since DA) 24b pop cap. Also, if you could build more of them the Thalans would NEVER be playing an "all-X" strategy.

The thing is, the "buildings that produce both" needs to be more than a single galactic achievment gimick, it should be the foundation of how the Thalans run. The food bonus is high (although the Thalans get no native farm tech), I would change the Hyperion Matrix thusly: First, you can build more than one. Second, it produces 12 industrial, 12 research, and 4 food. Third, each one should have an upkeep cost of 50bc. And you can build these suckers right from the outset and super hive applies to them.

These all stop buildings are different from anything else, but the power cost is huge. I would replace the current factory/research trees with 1 tree that reduced the upkeep on Hyperion Matrix (Matrii, Matrixes, Matrici, etc.), and one tree that increased the industrial and research ability of all matrix by 1 per step (so 13/13, 14/14, 15/15)... until you EVENTUALLY could end up with buildings that provided 16/16 for about 25bc upkep per turn. You would need them to run all of your research and production, but build too many and you fall into an econ hole. ALSO if you build too many you fall into a morale hole because they include farm increases. Powering a few of these super buildings... and importantly right from the get-go is what the Thalans need to keep their current theme but be able to survive the first two years.

At least in my opinion.
~ Wyndstar
Reply #2 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I like the idea of combining their labs and factories. I was kinda expecting that to be the case, so it was a bit of a surprise when it wasn't. At any rate, I think that the solution is to make the initial factory/lab buildings to be very easy to research, yet keeping the techs that increase their efficiency high cost. That way, the Thalan player can build those expensive things, but really needs to watch their maintainence costs.

Personally, I like how they can't grab a massive empire anymore, since they are (in theory) very well suited to making do with less. They get huge bonuses to manufacturing, and their production buildings ARE all very powerful if you spam economy buildings to afford them. I'd personally give their buildings a production boost so that they can compete up until the end of the game. After all, some buildings (I believe Drengin slave pits?) have end game variants that also produce 16 production, yet cost a fraction of the maintainence of an L3 factory!

Also, the Hyperion matrix should give a huge planetary defense bonus. ;)

I don't play on suicidal (hell, I don't usually play higher than Tough...), as I prefer it when my opponents don't cheat. Hell, with TA I've found that some of the races can get quite nasty in a hurry (the Drengin martial techs come to mind) even if some of them get knocked over in a stiff breeze (Altarians, you really haven't changed). However, I think that there is definitly potential here for a race that is pretty much the polar opposite of the Torians: they don't get a lot, but what they do get is expensive and powerful. I'm currently playing a game on a medium galaxy as the Thalan where I only started off with Thala and a class 5. Even now, I've only got 4 planets gained through conquest of a minor and taking some ground from the goddamned Drengin. Even with a substantial tech disadvantage and a frightening different number of colonies (I haven't bothered counting, but they've got something like 30 planets at this point), I've been fending off the Drengin war machine for quite some time now.

Might not last much longer, but still... given some time to pick up speed, the Thalans can be pretty formiddable even with minimal resources. It's just their starting condition that cripples them.
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Reply #3 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The Thalans have apparently decided to try and kill me with embassies. A sneaky plan on their part.


They do that because that's the only thing they can build, and the AI thinks embassy-filled worlds are better than empty ones.
Reply #4 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
given some time to pick up speed, the Thalans can be pretty formiddable even with minimal resources


The problem is on the highest difficulties you don't get the time to "pick up speed".

Thanks for the feedback,
~ Wyndstar
Reply #5 from GalCiv2 Forums Top

Indeed, my AAR is designed to show just how simplistic the Thalans are to beat in their current incarnation. If you think that somewhere I could have given them more of an advantage in the map setup while still playing to win, I'm open.

What could happen if you customize their abilities/political party to have the creative bonus?

Reply #6 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
What could happen if you customize their abilities/political party to have the creative bonus?


I agree the creativity bonus helps under the current incarnation. Still, I think there are several problems with that. First, I can't choose what bonuses the AI takes. Second, it only helps if the AI gets lucky and creativity "procs" on key techs early so they can possibly get up to speed. Third, no race should rely on one optional ability to make itself competitive at the top level.

One of the many problems is that for as good as the Hyperion Matrix is, it isn't good enough to make up for the complete lack of other production buildings in the beginning. Heck, against the Thalans I only built two buildings that I used the whole game. Sure, they were on +100% bonus tiles... still, it took me only the equivalent of 4 low level buildings to easily be on pace with all of the "super" power of the early Thalans.

The "few but powerful" theme is fine. The "best but longest to research" theme is fine. But when you take away initial expansion capacity you cripple a race. That is doubly true when the attached super ability is super hive.

I firmly believe that games are won or lost in the first year (or sooner!), so to have a race that can't even really get going for the first year basically demotes them to minor race status - except that they generate influence.

~ Wyndstar
Reply #7 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Hi!
Hyperion Matrix ... it should be the foundation of how the Thalans run.

I agree. Some races should be played differently, and Thalans are a proper candidate.

I would change the Hyperion Matrix thusly: First, you can build more than one. Second, it produces 12 industrial, 12 research, and 4 food.

I'd say the output is too high for a starting building. 6/6/1 would be IMO more appropriate, so having 5-10 on a planet would not kill the planet's approval by too high pop. Maybe even 6/6/0, so Thalans would simply be FORCED to research level-2 HM for more pop.

Third, each one should have an upkeep cost of 50bc.

50 BC upkeep?
                          
Build six and you're out of starting money in 10 turns just by having them. Add there their (proposed) big output in both production and research and you have even greater money sink, making it impossible to use as "the foundation of how the Thalans run".

IMO they should be expensive to build (maybe discounted price for Super Hive), but "normal" to maintain, because they are replacing the factory (1 BCs maintenance and production 6), a xeno lab (2 BC, 8 output), and a basic farm (0 maintenance, output 3). So the first level of Hyperion Matrix should cost some 150 BCs to build (for Thalans with their hive bonus ~50 BCs), and 4-6 to maintain. Remaining two levels of HMs should be quite far away (expensive) in tech tree, more expensive to build (300 and 500 BCs) with 10/10/1 and 15/15/2 output. The main limitation for using them would be simply the required economy to feed their big output in both fields. AFAIK Thalans have nerfed pop growth, so the required econ would be hard to achieve.

My 2c.

BR, Iztok
Reply #8 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Thanks for your 2c Iztok.

Yes, I know the 50 bc upkeep is huge. That is why it would have to be coupled with a tech tree that reduced the upkeep.

I arrived at that number by looking at what already existed in the current Thalan tech tree. The first Thalan research center provides 12 research at a 20 bc upkeep. The first Thalan industrial center provides 12 manufacturing at a 20 bc upkeep.

My idea for "one building that does everything" starts at a 12/12... a combination of the two low level Thalan buildings. That puts us at 40 bc upkeep to follow their current tree.

But... but you get access to the building right away instead of having to research 3 expensive beginning game techs. It also adds farm production... in a way paying for itself with more people (like the Hyperion Matrix now). Also, you get the efficiency of only needing to research one line to reduce the upkeep cost on the building.

Currently, the higher Thalan research buildings stay at 12 production, they just reduce the upkeep from 20 to 15 and finally to 10. Same deal with the manufacturing buildings. It takes a LOT of research to reduce one Thalan lab and factory from a 20+20bc upkeep to a 10+10 bc upkeep. Again, to keep a similar balance it seemed starting at 50 and reducing to 25 over 5 steps of research stayed in line with the original game design and balance.

I'd also be happy if you got one building that was a 12/12 with only a 40 bc upkeep. But these are huge super future buildings...

I like the building you propose as well. I was basing my numbers not on the Terran tech tree buildings, but on the Thalan buildings. If your proposal was adopted that would also really work.

In the end, something needs to change IMO though. The current Thalans are just not competitive enough early game.

Thanks for your thoughts,
~ Wyndstar
Reply #9 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
6/6/1 would be IMO more appropriate


Yes, that is more workable. The Thalans don't come with anything that is so fined tuned right now though. Their buildings either produce 16/16 or 12 research or 12 industry. They have nothing lower than a 12 in production...

That does make for interesting game design. I wouldn't mind more control with lower output buildings. I was just trying to stick with what I felt was the original theme of the new Thalans.

Just one more thought re-reading your post,
~ Wyndstar
Reply #10 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Nicely argued Wyndstar. The Thalan were nearly too good early in DA, they are clearly too weak in TA 4. You have aptly pointed out that the game is decided in the first turns on tiny maps (and most of us would agree that it is decided in the first few turns on larger maps) so it is crucial that the developers balance the early game far more precisely than any other portion of the game. The Thalan need some adjusting and your AAR points out the most critical weaknesses in their current incarnation. However, I think that your idea for the hyperion matrix is potentially overpowering early. Please realize that the value of a structure is not only determined by it's output relative to cost and maintenance, but also by its output relative to the amount of planet space it takes up. If you created a structure that provided what is typically four tiles worth of production/research in a single tile. The large maintenance costs associated with it would be negligible when considered against the amount of area saved for economic structures. And the rate at which these super structures can be placed online via rush buying is also 4x as fast.
Reply #11 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Nicely argued Wyndstar.

Thank you.

and most of us would agree that it is decided in the first few turns on larger maps

Yes. In my experience at least every map size up to and including large the first year is the most important.

However, I think that your idea for the hyperion matrix is potentially overpowering early. Please realize that the value of a structure is not only determined by it's output relative to cost and maintenance, but also by its output relative to the amount of planet space it takes up. If you created a structure that provided what is typically four tiles worth of production/research in a single tile. The large maintenance costs associated with it would be negligible when considered against the amount of area saved for economic structures. And the rate at which these super structures can be placed online via rush buying is also 4x as fast.


Mmmm, maybe. Placing the current Hyperion Matrix on a good bonus tile already provides this. The thing is, even if you have space for more economic buildings, you still have to actually build them. While the buildings as I proposed them have a large potential they come with several problems that I think balances them: 1) Huge upkeep, 2) you have to actually pay for what you produce. How soon can your economy afford to run at 100% if you built 4 of these? 3) IF they include a farm upgrade, there is a real limit on how many you can place before you would dig yourself a morale hole too big to ever crawl out of. 4) You can never take advantage of a max efficiency "all-x" strategy. With a building that produces 16/16... no matter what the slider combination it is always only producing at half max capacity no matter what.

And really, it is number 4 where I think that allowing Thalans huge production numbers but no focused "lab" or "factory" buildings could really make them interesting.

Also, even under my design the super hive ability loses a lot of its power. But, well, there are always custom races. Like SuperBreeder and SuperWarrior, I have a feeling SuperHive is about to become better with a Custom Race than with a stock race.

For instance, make an enemy with the SuperHive super ability, Drengin tech tree and Korath AI. That should be a real pain to fight against!

~ Wyndstar
Reply #12 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
And just for clarity, my AAR was done to be fast, but this Thalan weakness isn't limited to tiny maps. I initially set up the one on one in a medium map. I easily won twice in under a year. Then I tried a large map, and won on the 51st turn (barely after the first year). I started to realize I needed a good way to show this, and I thought a tiny map would illustrate without taking me too long to do. Plus, in theory anyway, the tiny map is the best arena for the Thalans with their few but powerful strategy, because there you get the fewest worlds... so if anything they should be overpowered on a tiny map.

But the stats from the large map I played are still instructive. What took me the longest was finding the Thalans... and then flying my ships over. Still, by the time the game was over, 51 turns, I had produced the same amount of industry and 5x the amount of research as the Thalan player. If you were to put us on a level playing field (remove the suicidal bonus from the Thalan) that means I actually produced at least 2 times the industrial production and at LEAST 10 TIMES the research production in the first full year vs. the Thalan.

Its that deficiency which they can't overcome. That puts them so far behind so early that at best the rest of the game they are playing catch up.

~ Wyndstar
Reply #13 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I trusted that you had worked everything out already and was only using this AAR as an in game demonstration. I doubt that the situation would change with larger maps (in fact I think the Thalan, Iconians and other "flawed races" are at their worst on small and medium maps). My only issue with your intitial idea for the hyperion matrix is that it would be a huge boost early (rush buy two on your home planet and even without focus you could out produce and out research anybody else in the first 10 turns and be well on your way to a decisive advantage before your starting money and anomoly cash runs out.
Reply #14 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
My only issue with your intitial idea for the hyperion matrix is that it would be a huge boost early (rush buy two on your home planet and even without focus you could out produce and out research anybody else in the first 10 turns and be well on your way to a decisive advantage before your starting money and anomoly cash runs out.


A fair point. I propose two different solutions.

First, you could limit Hyperion Matrix like an orbital fleet manager... only one per world no matter what.

Second, you could keep the high farm component. Currently I think ever building the Matrix on Thala is a mistake because 16+8 = 24 which is waaaaay too high a pop cap to support. While the matrix works well on a blank world (6+8 = 14 is maintainable) two on the same world - with an 8 farm ability - pretty much forces you to stay imperial the whole game and suffer under morale problems (6+8+8 = 22, too high for the way morale works).

I'm not sure the current Hyperion Matrix doesn't already suffer from your concern, however. Drop one of those on a precursor mine or library and you CAN outproduce by far anyone in the game in the crucial first turns. AND the current Hyperion matrix has no upkeep. You still have to figure out how to sustain paying for all that production. You also want to find a planet that isn't Thala with a precursor tile to build it on, and find it fast.

I love the feedback though. Bouncing ideas around can help to refine the concept.

~ Wyndstar
Reply #15 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
I tried playing the Thalans on an immense map, in the hopes that it'd give me more time to build up before doing anything. What I found, though, was that I had absolutely nothing to do but build colony ships and spend dozens of turns researching the techs that would let me research the techs to build planetary improvements . . . and I was looking at 30 turns at 100% spending, 100% tech just for the tech that unlocks the research, economic, and industrial improvements. Then, I'd have to spend dozens of weeks researching the actual structures, of which I could only build the economic buildings in any number, and those mainly in the hopes of supporting the exorbitant maintenance costs.

There's too many barriers to actually playing the Thalan Empire. The techs you need to actually start doing anything are far too expensive for far too little return. The descriptions sounded good, and I guess if you want to spend an hour or so doing nothing useful as a prelude to doing anything interesting, then - assuming the AI races don't kick your ass because you can't do anything useful for that hour - the Thalan are for you. :(
Reply #16 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
First, you could limit Hyperion Matrix like an orbital fleet manager... only one per world no matter what.


I think that this is a great idea- Stardock should consider your initial suggestion for a 12/12 output while reducing the population boost to manageable levels (2-3 maximum) and add a reasonable maintenance cost (not 50, more like 25 so you could afford to maintain one on each planet during the colony rush).

This should encourage the Thalan to rush hard to colonize a number of smaller planets and develop a dispersed industrial/research complex while boosting those planets max pop to levels that can reasonably support the initial structures economically.

If the matrices are good enough initially (and they would be 5 tiles worth of area in a single structure), the Thalan should be able to survive long enough to unlock other structures in their tech tree.

The late game area advantage from having a Hyperion Matrix on every world would be offset nicely by not being able to maintain 100% production via an all x with focus strategy. Even if you went all labs and flipped later to all factory, the research investment in the expensive Thalan tech tree and the reduced efficiency from the Hyperion Matrices should balance out any advantage.
Reply #17 from Stardock Forums Top
Luckily in my Thalan game (painful, huge, uncommon habitable, abundant everything else) I got a 700% research bonus to plunk my Hyperion Matrix on, so research wasn't a problem. It was still a long time before I could afford to build much of anything on the colonies though -- I was practically defenseless for the first year and had production less than 50% at times to stay afloat during the colony rush. Also luckily I stole Research Centers pretty early and replaced my Level 1 Tech Matrices with them. Losing 2 research per tile isn't bad when you're also reducing maintenance from 20 to 7.




Reply #18 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Well, congrats on a little luck to start the game. With luck any race can be put in a much better situation.

Still, the Thalans should not have to count on luck (precursor tile), the creativity ability (optional), or tech trading (which can be turned off) to give them even a fighting chance. IMO they should be able to slug it out toe to toe with the other major races.

~ Wyndstar
Reply #19 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The question is, are these the crippled Thalans we're going to see in the final release, or are they going to get more work. For them to make such a handicapped entry into TA is disheartening. They're my favorite in DA. In fact, when not playing as Thalan, I take them out because they *are* so powerful.

Reply #20 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The question is, are these the crippled Thalans we're going to see in the final release, or are they going to get more work.


To be honest I don't know. I think only Brad/Frogboy ultimately knows. But I figure since its in beta, the best way to improve the chance that this isn't the final Thalan product is to let Stardock know now by giving them feedback. I mean, thats what a beta is for.

If you think there are problems in a beta and you don't say anything, there is a chance nothing would change.

~ Wyndstar
Reply #21 from Stardock Forums Top
I played last night as the Torians with 8 opponents, huge, painful, uncommon habitable\abundant everything else. The Thalans were next to me and it was immediately apparent that whatever I'm doing to make them workable is beyond the powers of the AI. I rushed the Altarians who were on my other side, and by the time I'd conquered half their empire and they'd started to defend themselves the Thalans were still doing absolutely nothing. They had about half a dozen colonies, all with very low approval despite their tiny, tiny populations, and hadn't built anything except for the colonizers and a single constructor (and of course, a gajillion embassies). I sent my transports over and wiped them out in a few turns while I built some fighters to deal with the Altarians.

So, Thalans are indeed ruint.

I'd like to see a few unique one-per-planet improvements they can build without much research to get them going. Maybe a Lesser Hyperion Matrix and something like the Recruiting Center. Something that gives a boost in multiple areas would be nice. If that nerfs the all-x strategy, I don't mind. I like playing to each race's unique flavour, not mercilessy squeezing out maximal turn advantage until I might as well be playing a spreadsheet :D
Reply #22 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
not mercilessy squeezing out maximal turn advantage until I might as well be playing a spreadsheet


If anyone else ever played Black Nova Traders, you know what playing-by-spreadsheet is really like. My brother used to run private games on his website and while I'm pretty darn good at it, he MS Excel'd at it :LOL: 

...I'll be leaving now, the Pun Police just showed up.
Reply #23 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Oh, it's better than playing a spreadsheet. You can't WIN a spreadsheet!

:HOT:

~ Wyndstar
Reply #24 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
Alright... seeing as the Devs said the final Thalan version was almost upon us I wanted to give feedback from one more game.

I've continued to try and give the new Thalans a chance. This time I played the Iconians on a huge map... and I let the AI have 4 years before I declared war. The Thalans had almost 75% of the influence on the map and DID colonize planets at close to a 2 to 1 ratio. I didn't attack them until they had built a military.


However, even giving them 4 years to "get going" they were still a pushover, for 3 reasons.
1) I had outproduced and outresearched them by more than 2 to 1 even though they had more planets and I waited to give them time to research buildings. Their tech was therefore significantly worse when we battled.
2) I don't know how it was colonizing, but many, many of the planets I invaded had under 1 billion Thalans on it. They appear to have no sorts of soldiering bonuses that counteracts their low populations, so invading them is always easy.
3) They don't build over tiles. After I had cleared out the border and "mid" worlds of the Thalan empire, I started to invade the planets they had had the longest, those which were farthest away from me. Most of them were filled with embassies, even though the Thalans had since researched production buildings. Because the "back" Thalan worlds never produced beyond what the basic colony could manage their time and planet advantage didn't help them. They actually ended up with very few production worlds, and the production worlds they did have were not well protected - being on the frontier as it were. The Thalans MIGHT be OK if given years and years to get up to speed IF they overbuilt their embassies with some production buildings once they had them.

Thanks for listening,
~ Wyndstar
Reply #25 from GalCiv2 Forums Top
The Thalans have apparently decided to try and kill me with embassies. A sneaky plan on their part.


Best line ever...