ThinkAloud

When Honesty Is the Forbidden Policy

When Honesty Is the Forbidden Policy

Deceit ... of Citizens and Foreigners Alike

My niece who is an Assistant Professor of Political Studies has been working, since June 2007, on a paper for publication on "Deceit as a Tool in US Foreign Policy" . Last week she asked me to review her draft before she submits it for publication. I did and pointed out few points to her. One of these points was this: "not telling the whole truth to a foreign leader is not a deceit" especially if that leader does not support the US Government's policies regardless of whether those policies are right or wrong.

The US Government is not responsible for making sure that foreign leaders know everything they should know before they make their own decisions. The US is not a custodian of the world. The US Government is responsible for pursuing the best interest of its own Citizens not the interests of other countries. If the two coincide then great, if they don’t ... then we tell them what we think is best for us and that is not deceit if what we say is true. If it is not the whole truth ... then it is up to them to fill the gaps ... it is good enough that we didn’t lie. They can ask question and we should answer honestly.... but if they don’t ask we have no responsibility to educate them....

Or Do we?

That is what got me started on this article. .... Then things got worse in my mind.

This is not only happening in foreign policy ... it is happening in Domestic policies too ... here at home from our Government and the think tanks which guide and control its domestic policies.

The Foreign component deserves a separate article and there are many reasons to adopt a not-the-whole-truth policy with foreign leaders. But this article is about using the same attitude with the Citizens who elected the US government to Govern, supposedly, in their name.

The question is not only addressed to the elected officials but to every one involved in shaping or supporting these policies.

Is it legitimate to portray certain proposed ideas in a way that deceives the public and get them to agree to something that is really not what they think it is?

When dismantling the Social Security program is presented as "giving the people control over their own money" while in fact it will destroy the program and leaves great number of people with no (or vastly reduced) income after retirement …. Is that legitimate?

Every one knew that the minority who know a little about finance will be ok and may be do a little better while the majority who don’t know much about financial planning or how things work in the financial markets will be either worse off or lose their shirts in the process which negates the whole idea behind the program being a "Security" not an investment. It is an income insurance not an investment vehicle. There is the 401 K and IRA and other programs for investment ..... The SS program is not one of them.

But it was portrayed to the citizens as a better way of investment..... Was that legitimate?

When Medical Expenses savings accounts are portrayed as more economical for the individual than paying for health insurance which in fact it is for the minority who can afford paying for expensive private treatments while the majority will face a financial disaster if they need a serious operation or treatment..... Is that legitimate?

When Universal Health Care is portrayed as socialized medicine while in fact it is more efficient and less expensive for all than the current system which only benefits the Insurance Companies..... Is that legitimate?

When "getting the government off your back" is portrayed as less taxes while in fact it makes almost everyone pays much more in property taxes, college education, local services for maintaining roads and school buildings, ..Etc than what they save from Fed Taxes ... Is that legitimate?

When a program is intended to increase emissions of air pollutants and is called "Clear Skies" ... is that legitimate?

When a program results in mass exodus of manufacturing jobs from the country to foreign lands and portrayed as giving Businesses the freedom to operate where it is more efficient.... is that legitimate?

When deregulation of the communication industry results in more filth and violence on public airwaves and portrayed as less interference by government ... is that legitimate?

The examples are endless but that is enough to make the point and illustrates the dishonesty of the policies and the policy makers and supporters.

The first thing that comes to mind is this: if all that was legitimate why was it portrayed otherwise?

If destroying the SS program is the intent and they are convinced that it is the right policy ... why be dishonest about it?

If You want to save money for businesses by not giving employees health benefits and you think that is really better for businesses and employees alike..... Why lie about it?

If you want to relax the air pollution standards to save money for businesses why not say so?

No reason to keep asking the same question again and again....

Is it acceptable policy or politics to lie in order to achieve your goal?

Every citizen needs to think about that and be careful in swallowing what he/she is being fed. Many times it is dangerous for your health.
41,269 views 80 replies
Reply #26 Top
It will be and that is why the need for reform. Note reform. Not dismantling it.


Doc, please stay on the point. That is exactly what i was talking about. it is not in trouble now, but the 2% option portrayed it as in trouble AND they said the cure was to make people invest in the market and that will solve the problem.

That was deceitful. The system is not in trouble, but it will be if you take those 2% out. that will dismantle it.

the point was and still is .... the policy was presented in a not truthful way. They wanted to get more money to the stock market .... and they didnt want to say that.

no one saw any benefit from that program except for people who know how to handle financial markets which is very small part of the working force. .

lets not go into semantics and concentrate on the main point.
Reply #27 Top
If you can't afford to retire, you don't. Retirement is not a right or an entitlement.


and you are against people having insuranceso they can retire? that is ok. just say so .... dont go and say it is better investment
Reply #28 Top
How is waiting weeks or months for a simple procedure "better" service?


not true. Why are you making it so difficult and confusing with those false claims. In fact we already have it now .... if you expand medicare to all with fees that cover its cost ..... things will be simple and we still have the same system. no insr comp in the middle. the Fed employees and the VA have that .... why cant the rest of us?

why eliminate the bargaining power for lower prescrp. costs? is that honest?

Reply #29 Top
There may be some lies and deceit from Bush, but a lot more from the opposition


and that makes it ok? that makes you defend the Bush lies?

I dont defend anyone's lies .....

bias is getting us no where .....
Reply #30 Top
SS is in trouble because we are aborting our future work force at an alarming rate while making medical advances which allow those of us lucky enough to be born already to remain alive through artificial means far longer than god, nature, or the Federal Government ever intended.


That is part of it too. But let's not go down on old folks that hard. yes, there are reasonable limits of course and we should not be sooo adamant about keeping people alive even if they were dead already.

and there are more ways to fix the system and make it more effecient.

the point is just dont fool people .... most of us are not very sophisticated to see the spin. it is too fast for most people.
Reply #31 Top
Yet, here you are quibbling rather than looking at the spin itself.


thanks a lot. the semantics and quibbling are killing the issue.

Thanks again.
Reply #32 Top
Why are you making it so difficult and confusing with those false claims.


Nothing false at all.  You should go read about the problems with government run healthcare. 




Reply #33 Top
SS is in trouble



is really in trouble because people aren't dieing by 65. when that age was picked. life expectancy was 50?.
Reply #34 Top
I was just entertained that you made your point by using a little misinformation yourself. :~D


very funny Ted. That is ok. But please tell me what misinformation did i use?

All doc's and Gid's arguements are about details and not the main point. what facts that I used that are not correct?

I will correct them if they are really false. please be specific. Thanks
Reply #35 Top
is really in trouble because people aren't dieing by 65. when that age was picked. life expectancy was 50?.


comon daniel .... is the reason important? if it is in trouble ..... it is in trouble .... so why make it worse? or if you want to dismantle it .... then say so..... no spin ...ok?
Reply #36 Top
me i would prepare for the clean up and not tell anyone why.


That is not why they elected you. You think you are better judge than they are in preparing for that? if you tell them , they may tell you how to do it better and safer.
Reply #37 Top
Show me where it was a cause and effect. But please be honest enough not to eliminate things like lower wages over seas, lower tax burdens (outside of tax credits - we are talking the foreign taxes) when doing your "proof".


I am telling you what i participated in Doc. It is not a matter of true or false here. I relocated plants to China, Philipines and Saudia Arabia.

I didnt want to make this a lesson in project management and execution Doc. But you force me to. Ok , here are the details:

The Reagan tax policies introduced TWO factors:

1- Cost of dismantling old plants could be capitalized .... not expensed as it used to be
2- 20% of New Capital expenses (regardless of where they are) could be claimed as tax credits.

Old plants n the US at the time that needed upgrade became suddenly uneconomical to fix and upgrade because:
a- the cost of upgrade is not capitalized
b-the cost of dismantling is capitalized
c-the cost of both dismantling and of the new plant are qualified for the 20% tax credit.

Now what kind of stupid CEO will not take advantage of that?

and since location is not a creterion for the tax credit .... then why not go to where they can easily hide the profits.

as for the lower labor cost .... i have news for you

in the 3 locations i mentioned above the fact was that any job that would be done here by one person needed 3 or 4 people to do it in the same time .... not only that .... it is done at a lower quality.

by adding the cost of extra labor and the low yield of QC approved products .... it comes out very close to the labor cost in the US. these were hard nosed numbers .... but the capital costs and the lower taxes (because of locations) made it almost impossible to stay in the US.

One plant cost was $1 Billion. add to that about 100 million to dismantle/clean-up existing facility and you have $1.1B.

You know how much TAX CREDIT that means? it is $220 million TAX savings.

This has been going on fro the last 25 years ..... that how the manufacturing base disappeared from the USA. what a loss???

Doc, for your information every single program I am defending is really against my own immediate personal interest . and most of the programs i am against are actually would be in my immediate personal interests. Do you really think I would falsify data to do that? you think I am crazy or something?

But seeing plants close and go overseas is painful ..... and destructive to our country's National security. Do you knw where do we get the steel for manufacturing our military equipment nowadays? Japan, Korea, and Europe ...etc.

and where do we get the dirty basic chemicals? India and Philippines ...etc.

is that really good for our national security? we spend billions on military efforts to guard the traffic of these basic materials ....

and why is that? because it makes more money for the companies?????? is that a good reason?

these are the facts Doc. I am not just talking out of bias ... it is facts i knew first hand.

you can believe it or not ... but these are the facts as i participated in making them materialize.


Reply #38 Top
comon daniel .... is the reason important? if it is in trouble ..... it is in trouble .... so why make it worse? or if you want to dismantle it .... then say so..... no spin ...ok?


i did not spin anything. when they started SS they didn't expect most people to be living off of it for 10 years. why do you think that the ones in charge of it are talking about raising the age to 75.
Reply #39 Top
That is not why they elected you. You think you are better judge than they are in preparing for that? if you tell them , they may tell you how to do it better and safer.




right what happened in new Orleans and they had a week to prepare and get out. bush told them 3 days to get everyone out. but they didn't do that. they left the poor and the crooks bottled up in a football doom with no police to protect the poor.
Reply #40 Top
right what happened in new Orleans and they had a week to prepare and get out. bush told them 3 days to get everyone out. but they didn't do that. they left the poor and the crooks bottled up in a football doom with no police to protect the poor


Of course you know he is the chief executive, right?

did he follow up on his orders? if i did that in any of the projects i manage i will be on my butt in the street next day ... not next week. And i have seen that happen .... to my boss. Honest. One morning i came in and said Good morning ... he said what is good about it?

I was shocked? and you know why he was fired .... $60K overrun in a project following a disasterous start-up for a new plant. they didnt fire the engineers who were supposed to do the job right ... they fired the top guy because he didnt catch the problem in time

but sadly you give W excuses. yes, they all fooled around and made a big mess ... but where was he? his men on site to see if the big-man's orders are being carried out ... and report back to him ... where were they?

let's not kid ourselves Daniel ..... ok?


As for SS, lets not argue about why it is introuble .... my point was this: if the intent was that eliminate it for any reason.... just say so. That was not what they said ..... that is the point.
Reply #41 Top
come on it was the major and governers jobs to get those people out.

the major refused to use the 1000 buses that he had available. he also refused Amtrak's offer to pull trains down there and get everyone out. you democrats have got to stop blaming bush. when it was the democrat major and the democrat Governor who didn't do their jobs.
Reply #42 Top
but sadly you give W excuses. yes, they all fooled around and made a big mess ... but where was he? his men on site to see if the big-man's orders are being carried out ... and report back to him ... where were they?



it wasn't his job. his job does not include telling governers and majors what to do. he shouldn't have had to tell them to get everyone out. they should have just done it. it was their job not his.
Reply #43 Top
it wasn't his job.


ok Daniel .... it is not his job. I am sorry i thought it was since he is the president. I guess i am wrong. sorry daniel. but if it wasnt his job, why did he give orders?

never mind. he was just joking ... i know.
Reply #44 Top
why did he give orders?


he over stepped his job when he did.


now tell me why did the major turn down the amtrak offer.
Reply #45 Top

ThinkAloud:

very funny Ted. That is ok. But please tell me what misinformation did i use?

I already did.

As far as the VA though, I've had the misfortune of being a "patient" at 3 major VA hospitals and I worked at a VA clinic for awhile.

In the new employee orientation they told us that their goal is to make the veterans the #1 lobby group for the VA healthcare system.  The reality doesn't meet the stated goal.  I am 100% for dumping the entire VA hospital system in favor of using the money to cover us going to local facilities.

Have you ever had to drive 4 hours to get your wrists X-Rayed?  I have.  In another situation, I got kidney stones.  The VA said they would cover my ER visit, but all follow up care would have to be done at the Salt Lake City VA Hospital (3 hours away).  The thing was though, kidney stones aren't an inpatient situation.  So I had to either take the 6 hour drive every few days, or find a place to stay around Salt Lake.  Fortunately, I'm from that area, so i have plenty of family to stay with.  Since it took me three weeks to pass the little sucker, it also cost me an entire year of school.  It would have just cost me that semester, but the Paramedic program only runs specific classes every semester, so I had to wait until the next year and join the next class tdo finish.

Do you want to know what my VA rep said about that?  Well, we're covering the costs, so you shouldn't worry about that.

The VA medical system sucks and should NEVER be used as a model for any medical system to follow.

Reply #46 Top
btw, when I worked at the clinic, one complaint I heard from co workers in the break room was, "why do these people expect special treatment... just because they are veterans?".
Reply #47 Top
ok Daniel .... it is not his job. I am sorry i thought it was since he is the president. I guess i am wrong. sorry daniel. but if it wasnt his job, why did he give orders?


TA,

We are not a dictatorship. The President does not have ultimate authority, nor should he. The responsibility for mobilizing an evacuation rested chiefly in the hands of Mayor Nagin. If Nagin needed extra assistance, he should have gone up the chain...first to the mayor, then the President.

I GUARANTEE you that if the US had mobilized National Guardsmen to NO and evacuated at gunpoint, you and everyone else left of center would be shouting about the "police state"...and if, God forbid, one minority had been shot in the process, no matter the cause, you'd be crying race war!

New Orleans was a mess all the way around. I will put culpability on Bush for his lack of response, but I will not blame him for the failure to evacuate. Bush told citizens to evacuate, as did Blanco and Nagin. That they didn't attempt to respond is hardly the government's fault.
Reply #48 Top
ThinkAloud, don't even get me started on Emergency Management since you abviously have no idea what you are talking about.
Reply #49 Top
you can believe it or not ... but these are the facts as i participated in making them materialize.


Ok, now you present facts. Thank you. But you did not prove your point, only that your opinion is based upon more than talking points. But the truth is that the act of capitlization of expensing a move is not going to send jobs overseas. Expensing versus capitalization only means when the cost can be claimed, not that the cost can be claimed. If you have to spend a million dollars to upgrade a plant in one location versus half that in another, you would be a fool to not move it. So the bad boy here is not the tax law you claim, but the fact that the CEOs would be fools to pay a million dollars (and probably liable due to our litigious society) when they could pay half that.

And guess what? Many did not move over seas. States are always bidding on new plants by offering incentives for the company to relocate. And suceeding. The cost of cement and steel is pretty much the same in Michigan as it is in Kentucky, so what would entice a company to move?

Money. tax incentives, and lower taxes. Lowering taxes is not going to cause a flight of capital. being arrogant about the fact that companies are not multi-national will cause it however.

As for your 3-1 example, I am sure in some instances that may be true. Hardly in most. That is why there are still over 100 million jobs here in this company. Because some things can be done more efficiently than in other countries due to (wait for it) - the training and education of the local work force. However, when that training and education is offset by greatly lower labor costs (so that you can hire 3 to do the job of 1) it again becomes more economical to move it.

But wait! If all these jobs have gone overseas, why is the investment in some areas increased here in the states? While we have fewer autoplants owned by the big 3, we have a lot more plants in the US than before owned by - shock! - Toyota, Honda, and other foreign companies. Why? It is cheaper to make the stuff here, than to ship it here. Labor costs do not play a big part as they offset for the most part.

Where they do not (making lead based toys comes to mind), the jobs move.

Now, I have given some facts (by no means all or in any way comprehensive) and you have given some, and we have reached 2 different opinions. Are you lying? Am I lying? I think not. And that goes back to your title and original contention. You did not start this out as a discusion of domestic versus foreign (and indeed that is just one plank of your article), but as lies, deceit and more lies. Which they are not.

Or the blame is being placed on the wrong person/administration. Does the administration "tell" us the whole truth? Hardly. Not out of deceit, but out of the fact that most do not understand it, and only listen to a 30 second sound byte. But the facts are out there, for the educated to learn and edcuate themselves on.

Do you want me to explain to you how that sentence of yours got to this site? Or are you merely content that it did when you typed it at the keyboard? Your claim is that I am lying to you when I do not explain all the communication protocols needed to connect your computer to this site, and then explain how the computer translates your input into output. When I am merely choosing not to go into that level of detail - a level that only a handful of people would understand or care about - just to tell you to press the A key on your keyboard to have it appear here.

But on other points, you took the talking points of one side, and having failed to do any research on them whatsoever, swallowed them hook line and sinker and called someone a liar. yet you have danced around the crucial point that could even start a discussion on the issue, never addressing it, just calling those who do not agree with liars. When in fact, as I indicated, all are probably not telling the whole truth, but some are out right lying - and it is not this administration.

Of course the issue is SS, and its reform. Do you have a 401k, or an IRA? Did you just dump money into it and let John P. Broker do with it as he wants with no accountabilty to you? If so, does that money even exist now?

Show me the account where your money is in SS. You cant. It does not exist. It is broken. It was patched in the 80s, but even then everyone at that time said it was just a patch and that eventually it would need more work. Everyone except the ones lying to you now - Hillary, Edwards and Pelosi come to mind in that category.

The first thing before any discussion (or allegations of dishonesty) can be had on the SS issue is to define WHAT SS is. If it is just another government tax, then a tax redirection (ala having YOU decided what to do with YOUR money) is probably going to be bad. not because it will bankrupt the system (the system is doing that all by itself), but because it will lay bare the fact that SS is a ponzi scheme and not your money, but just a failed concept that was bankrupt by congress over the last 50 years. (it did not start out paying all those disability and death benefits - it was just a retirement supplement).

But I am getting to far into an issue that is not germaine to your article yet and can be an article upon itself. I will bring back this lengthy essay to the point by saying that you announced deceit based upon faulty data - or more specifically talking points. You jumped to a conclusion - a conclusion not supported by any facts in the article (see, you did provide some in the comments, but you stated your conclusion in the article with none). And that is what I called you on. If you want to spout the talking points of one side, that is indeed your right. As it is mine to call you on them and tell you that they are bunch of BS.

Dont get your panties in a twist just because not everyone accepts those talking points without thinking. As most did not here. Next time, question those talking points. The talking points are for the lazy who do not want to or have the capabilty to research issues further. They make good campaign rhetoric, but lousy discussion points because they are inherantly flawed - regardless of who makes them.
Reply #50 Top
THINK ALOUD POSTS:
We need to fix a lot of things. Washington is the first and all other State Capitals to follow.... we have a big mess ....

True.

But why?

It's not Bush's tax cuts....they are helping keeping the economy rolling.

Rather, it's municipal, state and federal government over spending, waste and fraud ...and entitlement programs are a big part of it.