What a fine example of Christian tolerance & respect.

Notice the "While the U.S. has been tied up in Irag" lead-in - I seriously doubt the "senior U.S. military official in Japan ever uttered those 9 words, but whoever wrote the article, not to mention Gene, would like you to think so. It's another of those "counterfactual conditionals" Gene loves to play with.

Gene....you claim to be a Christian.

So, here is a question:

Do you pray daily for President Bush. I mean, really pray for the man. Intercede for him. Pray that he would seek God, and make the right choices, no matter how much under pressure he is in. Putting away all political motivivation, and simply stand in the gap for the man and PRAY for him? Because, if you are a Christian (as you seem to say you are), you should be doing that, because that is what God has called us to do. Pray for ALL men, especially those in authority.

Just think about that....because, from the way you talk on here about Bush, I doubt that you truly do pray for the man like you should.

Chris

Reply By: danielost Posted: Saturday, September 29, 2007
I provide the actual results of Bush and his policies.


Most of what you provide is actually democrat policy. You just put bushes name to it. and half the stuff that is bushs doings you spin to fit your agenda.

That is a lie. My research had NOTHING to do with ANY group. The results I sighted about Iraq, the deficit, trade, immigration, education etc is accurate. The problem is that it documents what the policies we have been following have produced. There is no question the results show we have NOT effectively resolved ANY of the issue that faced Bush in 2001 and he has added the problem of Iraq and the deficit.

The positions taken by the Democrats on many issues reflect the failure of the current policies. The GOP/ Bush approach is to STAY THE COURSE even when that course is clearly not working.

Reply By: ParaTed2k Posted: Saturday, September 29, 2007
Then we will continue to treat you with the same mindless venom that you vomit on Bush. Because you deserve no better.

Since what I post is predicated on the most knowledgeable experts and the agencies that collect the results, you are saying these sources which I use are "Mindless Venomous” sources. For example, on Iraq I sight people like Baker, Armitage, Powell, Scheuer, McCaffery, Zinni, Shinseki, Prof. Record. In the way Bush handled our fiscal affairs I sight O’Neil, Greenspan, Walker, U.S. Treasury. Which of these sources are Mindless or Venomous?

Reply By: MythicalMino Posted: Sunday, September 30, 2007
Gene....you claim to be a Christian.

So, here is a question:

Do you pray daily for President Bush. NO!

I prey for our Country and our Military EVERY NIGHT.

Reply By: Daiwa Posted: Sunday, September 30, 2007
“While the U.S. has been tied up in Iraq, China is modernizing its military and its air defenses are now nearly impenetrable to all but the newest of American fighters, the senior U.S. military official in Japan said.


Notice the "While the U.S. has been tied up in Iraq" lead-in - I seriously doubt the "senior U.S. military official in Japan ever uttered those 9 words, but whoever wrote the article, not to mention Gene, would like you to think so. It's another of those "counterfactual conditionals" Gene loves to play with.”

It was Quote by Lt. Gen. Bruce Wright, commander of the roughly 50,000 U.S. forces in Japan. Argue with him if you like!

thanks to bill clinton for giving them the tech to do it.

well, then you are WRONG, and you are not doing what you should be, as a Christian. I suggest you repent of that, and get right with God, and start praying for the man. Or, do you feel you are above the commands of God?

the failure of many current policies are the same policies that the democrats have been pushing for years.


you keep saying that we need to raise taxes to pay off the debt. but both of the democrat front runners want to raise taxes so that they can pay for this program or that.

clinton wants universal medicine. we had a taste of that in 2001-2002 flu season. remember we ran out of the shots for those who needed it.

and before you blame bush this is something that is ordered a year in advance. that means that clinton ordered it. clinton also stated that we would only pay so much for the shots that year. what happened we ran out.

Reply By: danielost Posted: Sunday, September 30, 2007
China is modernizing its military and its air defenses are now nearly impenetrable to all but the newest of American fighters,


"thanks to bill clinton for giving them the tech to do it." The general's comments have NOTHING to do with Clinton. Just Bush!

Gene, I am trying to help you here.

The Bible tells us, above all things, to pray for ALL men. Not just those we like or agree with or like being around. That is easy to do that.

What we are called and commanded by God is to love all men, pray for them, and forgive anyone that has done anything against us. If we cannot forgive them, then how can we expect God to forgive us?

It would be a shame to spend a lifetime of hate, and then in the end, be without God's forgiveness just because of another man, and our refusal to forgive him and pray for him.

Chris

Reply By: MythicalMino Posted: Sunday, September 30, 2007
well, then you are WRONG, and you are not doing what you should be, as a Christian. I suggest you repent of that, and get right with God, and start praying for the man. Or, do you feel you are above the commands of God?


GOD has given man the ability to choose even when we choose options that GOD does not like. Thus GOD will not force GWB to change his mind and I know from watching Bush over the past almost 7 years, he will STAY THE COURSE. I will pray for the Voters to take the power from the GOP in 2008 so more of what the majority want will take place. My Republican Party has lost its way and no longer wants what is BEST for America!

that is your excuse for not doing what God has commanded you to do?

FIRST OF all, then, I admonish and urge that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be offered on behalf of all men, For kings and all who are in positions of authority or high responsibility, that [outwardly] we may pass a quiet and undisturbed life [and inwardly] a peaceable one in all godliness and reverence and seriousness in every way. For such [praying] is good and right, and [it is] pleasing and acceptable to God our Savior, Who wishes all men to be saved and [increasingly] to perceive and recognize and discern and know precisely and correctly the [divine] Truth.
(1Ti 2:1-4 AMP)

And I sought a man among them who should build up the wall and stand in the gap before Me for the land, that I should not destroy it, but I found none. Therefore have I poured out My indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath; their own way have I repaid [by bringing it] upon their own heads, says the Lord God.
(Eze 22:30-31 AMP)


You are inexcusable when it comes to this area of your life. You, yourself, choose to NOT obey God. You, yourself, are no different than GWB, since you are "staying the course" and not praying for the man. It is your DUTY as a Christian to pray for those in authority.

Paul said to pray for him. It is as simple as that. You choose not to. That is between you and God....but I just qouted what the Bible says about it. Now, what will you do? "Stay the course".....or repent of your selfish thoughts, and reject that hatred you have, forgive the man, and offer up prayer for him, so that you too can be forgiven, and so that you can live a quiet and peaceable life.

The scriptures are very clear about it, Gene.....but it is on you to follow and obey them. Notice, though, in Ezekial 22:30-31, God says that he is looking for a man to pray....but he could not find one. That is why he pours out his indignation and consumes them....because nobody prayed. YOU need to stand in the gap and pray for him. It is as simple as that.

Wow. If this kind of squabbling between left and right is the status quo in the U.S then it really won't matter what kind of air defence system China has, as the Americans will be too busy fighting each other. The great thing about it is both sides are using a self-fulfilling prophecy, do you realize this? What that means is that when the world goes to hell in a handbasket and the U.S is turned into a third world nation, occupied country or fractured into warlord states, both sides will point the finger at the other and say "look, we told you so!!!"

In regards to praying for the president, sure you can pray for him but does that mean that he is not accountable for the things he has done? I think some timely quotes from our good friend Aristotle are in order.

"A tyrant must put on the appearance of uncommon devotion to religion. Subjects are less apprehensive of illegal treatment from a ruler whom they consider god-fearing and pious. On the other hand, they do less easily move against him, believing that he has the gods on his side."

Aristotle said this a couple thousand years ago, and it's true as ever today. Separation of church and state was created by christians,(or Christ himself depending on your interpretation of the "give unto Caesar what is Caesars" speech) for the protection of the church. Bush learned back in his campaigning days in Tecas' that if you go after the christian vote it can put you light years ahead of the opposition. Hence why the man who signed off on so many execution orders for death row inmates was also such a compassionate christian? I dunno about you, but last I checked there was no part of the bible where Christ called for capital punishment. Must have been somewhere in between "turn the other cheek" and "do unto others". Oh wait, there was one politician in the bible who signed off on death warrants for criminals. I think his name was Pilot.

Another thing that Aristotle said that I think has been forgotten and would be well advised for most of the people on here to think about:

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it"

Again, I'm not saying this as a criticism, but more as an observation- if neither side is willing to even entertain the thoughts of the other, what point is there in discussion?

And...yes....God has given every man the ability to choose. And God will not force Bush to do what he should. BUT....God has COMMANDED Christians to pray anyways. This isn't about Bush, this is about you doing the will of God and praying for the man, or just telling God to shut up and leave you alone because you don't like the guy.

You don't have to like the man, but you do have to love him (agape love, unconditional love). If you cannot forgive him, and love him, and pray for him, then God won't do the same for you....remember the "Lord's Prayer"? "Forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who trespass against us".....you are not doing that. You are holding anger and hatred bottled up on the inside of you, and refusing to do what God has commanded you to do "First of All". You are the one making excuses and not doing what you are called to do as a Christian.

Arty,

We make these arguments because we have the luxury of doing so. In times of domestic peace, you have the luxury of debate.

I'm not familiar with the politics of Canada, but I would be very surprised if there is not debate there, and if it is not sometimes equal in intensity to arguments that we have over here. Politics have inspired debate since the very first time two people fought each other control. The key is to do it civilly.

As for the rest of the debate going on, for me it goes in the "meh" pile. I enjoy discussing it as much as anyone, but in Col Gene's case, he pretty much argues the same point over and over and over again, as you'll soon learn.

praying for a man has nothing to do with him being responsible for his actions. Where in the world did you get that from my posts?

YES, and a thousand times YES, Bush is responsible for his own actions and life. But, we are responsible for our actions and lives, and God has declared that we are to pray for those in authority. If we don't....then we are just as wrong as the people that we should be praying for.

Just because Bush is doing something wrong doesn't mean we stop praying for him. Dear God, if God thought that way, we would all be eternally condemned, because he wouldn't have done anything. The Bible says that "while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us".....he didn't wait until after he saved us to save us....or wait until after we have been changed to die for us. He did it while we were dirty rotten sinners bound for eternal hell. That is when he died for us.

And so it is with praying for others. We need to pray for them when they are doing wrong, not when they are doing what is right.

Chris

Gideon, you're right. About the "meh" discussion, my question is what will happen when the s%#t hits the fan? Will the people pull together and throw politics out the window or will it continue to be a dividing factor?

Mythical, ok, I agree with you that we should pray for everyone. With that said, I harbour no animosity towards Bush but I do think he should be brought to justice for the things he has done. Again, no hatred or dislike there, just a desire to see things set right. If someone has broken the law, they need to be dealt with in accordance with the law, no? Sure, pray for them of course, but they can't be allowed to continue breaking the law, can they? If a burglar broke into your home, and trashed the place, ok, pray for him. But at the same time, you should probably call the police to have the guy arrested, so that he couldn't continue the crime spree, right?

If Pres. Bush has indeed broken the law, then yes. Justice should be done. But again, we should be praying for him. And not praying that fire be brought down from heaven and roast him on the spot. But true intercession. That is what I am saying....pray for the man's soul, and that he get right with God, and live a good life.

To do that, though, we need to put aside our politics (which Gene seems unable to do). Put aside our feelings and thoughts towards the man, and pray for him according to God's will.

Are you really that dense, Gene? What you published was not a quote from the general at all, you quoted the first line of a news article about the general's interview. Do you really not understand the concept of "quote"? Give me the link to the actual transcript - there's not a chance in hell that those 9 words were uttered by the general.

what laws has he broken

“It would be a shame to spend a lifetime of hate, and then in the end, be without God's forgiveness just because of another man, and our refusal to forgive him and pray for him.”

IF and WHEN GWB admits he was wrong and seeks forgiveness I be happy to forgive him!

Reply By: Daiwa Posted: Sunday, September 30, 2007
It was Quote by Lt. Gen. Bruce Wright, commander of the roughly 50,000 U.S. forces in Japan. Argue with him if you like!


Are you really that dense, Gene? What you published was not a quote from the general at all, you quoted the first line of a news article about the general's interview. Do you really not understand the concept of "quote"? Give me the link to the actual transcript - there's not a chance in hell that those 9 words were uttered by the general.


SHOW us where that is NOT what the general said in the interview!

Here is a Quote from the General's interview with CBS, "Are we in trouble? It depends on the scenario," Wright said Thursday. "But you have to be concerned about the small number of our forces and the age of our forces."