How about with the above suggestion of no upgrades period outside of one's cultural territory? If you really care about realism (and i don't).

And the diplomacy thing can work, in fact, i suggested the same thing months ago. But the penalties have to be universal, and not just to the civ being attacked. And they would have to be large. Some think that would be too blunt an instrument.

And again, sneak attacks are easy and take little skill. I don't see why they have to remain in the game.

every army tries to make every attack a sneak attack.

One thing, if the AI is in war state, it shouldn't declare war until it attacks.
Civ IV does this

Cultural borders can be made by using a constructor and influence starbase, so that earlier proposal won't work too well.

Let the AI sneak attack a bit as well.

My two cents worth (if it is even worth that much!)...

I like what Peace Phoenix said above. It seems simple enough and does not seem to be much in addition to what is already in the game. If there is no RoP then foreign military ships would trigger a build-up warning as Peace Phoenix said. To expand on this, the build-up warning would not necessarily mean that the other race would declare war but would add a negative point in your relations with that race (perhaps a double negative if you have LOTS of military ships in their space). The AI could warn you to remove your military ships from their space if you don't have a RoP with them if your ships have triggered a build-up warning for them. This warning would be similar to the warning that they give you when you have a couple of strong influence starbases next to their planets.

I think that it is OK to move ships out of another races culturally controlled space if a RoP is cancelled (either diplomatically or through the declaration of war). I have never found the UP event like this silly - it just adds another thing to consider when I play which is good for variety (and I haven't seen anyone complain about the UP event before the RoP topic started so why start complaining now! ). If you don't have a RoP with another race then you can still launch a sneak attack but your ships would have triggered a build-up warning with the AI race and so they should be watching you closely (not to mention the cool relations that you would have with that race due to the negative point that your ships in their space without a RoP are causing to your relations with them).

If people are worried that moving ships out of culturally controlled space will then leave planets that are within in another races influence unprotected then perhaps ships should also be moved to within the squares immediately around a planet owned by the owner of the ships even if all of that space is technically in the influence of another race. Alternatively, Cari's idea about returning the ships to the world where they were build is another OK suggestion (except that planets have a limit (10 ships?) to how many ships can be in orbit so I don't know how her suggestion would work with this limitation.

As a semi-side note, I think that implementing actual borders (instead of just using cultural borders as a quasi-border) is silly! This is space. Sure your race might have influence over a large portion of space but it is not really owned by anyone. What are you going to do to declare ownership? Put up a big fence? Remember that space is 3D so the fence would have to be a sphere. Also, if there are actual borders then what happens when there are two planets in the same star system owned by two different races? It would be complex and annoying trying to determine a good way to fairly and logically handle actual borders in instances like this. I think that actual borders *would* add too much complexity without any (or much) benefit to gameplay.

The ai will not be able to sneak attack as well, because humans are inherently more aware and in a better position to exploit ai ship positioning, especially when its targetting other ais.

And again, I don't see how erecting an expensive artificial border will be much of a problem for the ai given that my proposal allows non attack ships to pass through without a war declaration. Influence starbases are also easy to take down.

Add the Declare War button. Add the 'push out' functionality. Remove the UP event.

But...

Still allow sneak attacks, with a very large diplo hit...and a planetary defense bonus (10% ??) on every defending planet after the 1st invaded (defender's homeworld would get 10% even if it were sneak attacked, 20% if it were not the 1st hit.)

Substitue a UP vote, with an increasingly likely chance of coming up, condemning sneak attacks in general. When condemnation statute passes, future sneak attacks give a chance (30% ??) that sneak attacker will get thrown out of UP.

drrider

As I have said before:

I am wondering if the problem is really sneak attack or if the problem is the inability for the AI to successfully defend its planets when war breaks because its orbiting ships are sitting ducks waiting to be shot and its inability to launch fleet to intercept incoming fleet? 

This is mostly true, but even if the AI would launch orbiting ships in fleets to attack instead of having them sit in orbit waiting to be shot down one-by-one... it wouldn't solve the sneak attack problem, because a sneak attack implies that the AI won't have the chance to be able to react to the player's attack in that matter.

I really would like to see the OFM be dropped and just have all planets be defended by fleets as if they had one... *shrugs

That's similar to the point I was making earlier. In my current game, for example, the biggest, baddest thug AI empire had at least one battleship or dreadnought orbiting every one of its planets, usually two or three, plus some frigates and defenders. If it had launched all of those big ships, fleeted them, and sent them to attack, I would have really had a run for my money. As it was, I just had to slow down every so often to replenish my transports and build a few new attack ships. What does the AI do during a pause in hostilities? Build more dreadnoughts that never leave orbit and send a few easily-picked-off singleton battleships toward my borders.

It would be possible. However, AI could declare war on you in such case (after asking for RoP treaty), and colonize the inner planets anyway.

i beg to differ. my points had less to do with the way the AI handles tactics of its combat ships and diplomatic options than you seem to think. i do agree with your reply, that an AI engine that can handle tactics about as well as a human is a long way off, and the point about sensors is indeed partly a tactical issue. but it wasn't even central to my main observational suggestion. the set of points i was most conerned with primarily addressed the way diplomacy itself is structured: specifically, that the options are too limited and boil down to nothing more than agreements and treaties, rather than a simulation of meaningful communication. i'm sorry you missed that, and i admit it wasn't completely clear: in my own defense, i did admit that i was mentally meandering. i think Brad's done a bang-up job with the AI, and i'm confident he would continue to do so if SD decided to reimagine the nature and breadth of diplomatic options in the game.

In that case, the game mechanism should be tweaked to avoid planets being defended by sitting ducks

Currently, when a fleet attack a planet that is defended by ships that can't be fleeted, it is sometimes useful to split the attacking fleet and attack the planet 1 vs 1 , rotating the attacking ship, allowing to clean the planet defended in one turn, even if there is no space left on orbit before the attack. And you still have lots of movements points when refleeting your ships

I beg to differ, while realistically it may not be that easy to implement this is a videogame where gameplay is more important than realism. As for being able to monitor the space, it doesn't seem to far fetched considering you can easily make a ship that can see a couple parsecs around it.

In the case of having two planet in a solar system it would just need to do what civilization does, make them flatten out together.

At first it might be a little complex, but if the borders don't move or move only when special situations arise people will end up quickly adapting to them. Now if they expanded like influence borders do.. ya that could be a problem.

Yeah. I'd like to see Orbital Fleet Managers removed and planets defend as a fleet. Would make invading more difficult as is, and Orbital Fleet Managers are a cost of space.

As for the invasion maybe a planet should, based on its PLANETARY influence, but capped by its sensor rating, get a ring around the planet. Any ship entering that ring would need a RoP, unless it has a ring of its own in that ring. (If two civs share space- like in a split system, the ring is shared by both) Entering that ring without a RoP is either a diplo hit or war.

Starbase influence does not count at all for this.

I think these two things would prevent effective sneak attacks until late game.

I don't like the idea.

I have to confess that I prefer Civ4 over GalCiv, a lot.

But one of the things I hate in Civ4 is the autmatic beaming of units within enemy territory when declaring war. It's no fun at all.

Please don't copy this aspect of Civ4 - copy anything else!

How about putting declare war button to state your intentions the formal way, Though I think we should still be allowed sneak attacks which you could take a trade and diplomacy penalty with other civs. I mean after all being sneaky and underhanded is part of politics . It worked quite effectively in ww2, kinda funny tho getting declaration of war after enemy troops are already crossing your frontier lol just a thought. On a side note I also think its really important to have some type button to tell enemy to get his ships/bases out of your territory . Sorry if this has been beat to death but Im kinda new to forums please bear with me.   

Almost forgot I would also like a few dialogue options like Bribe,insult,threaten,copliment with a chance to affect relations based on your diplomatic ability,culture,influence and general standing in galaxy maybe . Man I didnt mean it to sound so complicated lol  

Good idea eoryn. I def like your "options " ideas as oppossed ro restrictions. I def think its kinda dum warping ships and slowing them down. Also cloaking could add a fun element to a game a cloaked commerce raider/scout ship reminds me of klingon bird of Prey heh

there is a declare war button in the diplomat screen

Ok, I'll make another stab at relevance here. If you think of Gal Civ as a Naval Sim, then all of the planets are tiny islands on a water world. The best you can do is defend a radius around the island, as has been suggested.

This means that any "borders" are both mutable and imaginary. In fact, when there is a war, all of the water is hostile territory, except where shore batteries and mines, etc. can give you SOME control.

A system where the control of the planets are in multiple hands, is, by nature, in contention, and is a war zone when any of the holders are at war. That is why I proposed that there be grey "territory." Imagine if the US held Hawaii, but the other islands were occupied by another, hostile, country. Where would you draw the border of the US?

Open water is just that, open. International territory. Not to be used to calculate total "ownership" of the world.

That being said, if you hold all of the planets, then you can be said to hold the area the solar system is in, but only to a certain radius. I would agree that it should be somewhat bigger than the sum of its parts, if there is no contention.

I'm not sure that stations should count at all. It may be that they could be used for force projection, and, so, aid the control of an occupied system. But if the stations count by themselves, why not count fleets? They are certainly more instrumental to holding an area.

The only way that you could be said to control an area of space, is if you can put ships there and your enemies cannot. In this sense, range is much more an issue than influence.

borders are both mutable and imaginary on land as well except when it is formed by a river.



this is true but you can push that radius out.





the only base that should affect a true border should be the military one. the others have their own areas of effect.

i have a stupid radical thought.


why not make the whole negotiable.

in other words how fast you can go through my territory.

where you can travail in my territory like no closer than 5 spaces to not at all.

and as many of these ideas that can be negotiated by the AI. if that is even possible.


one other thing i would like to see is a per turn price/tribute.

whoops didnt know there was declare war button I only have
Galciv2 DL  

I guess its all Butterfly Effect, a change in any one dynamic can/will produce major and/or unpredictable changes elsewhere. Let's break this down to simpler components. There is the presumed assumption that Suicide levels are not difficult enough due to the use of sneak attacks, which the AI is unable to properly use or defend against. In response, the development team has presented a Right of Passage treaty that will drop non-treaty races to 1pc/wk and after declaration of war, or first attack, all player ships are moved from AI territory. While players like the idea of Right of Passage, they don't like the engine nerfing or "teleportation" of ships. Also, players want to keep sneak attacks as a viable option for use, as they are "realistic" in form.

Examples of where RoP limits would be bad (extreme example): a Gigantic Map with 2 players, relations status: at war, thus RoP cannot be used. Assume that each race controls half of the map (7.5 sectors) From the starting border of the enemy race, it could take up to 112.5 weeks to traverse the territory or 2.34 game years, an ungodly and extremely tedious amount of time. This is the basis of where Large and above map users draw their complaints on the tedium imposed by this limitation and also complaints about the overall engine nerfing.

Best suggestions submitted so far for 'solving' sneak attack and speed issues:

Diplomatic Repercussions should be VERY high for having military ships in the territory of another race; basically a triple minus in relations, unless allied. {i think this one in particular is a necessity}. Also attacks without a formal declaration of war could result in lowered relations across the board.

Territorial Control set at a radius from a planet or controlled star system where the full effects of the RoP could be used. {I happen to really like this one, doesn't limit the cultural border for flipping planets but limits ship placement and other restrictions without radical changes to current game play}

Increase Espionage Usefulness in that data is not presented immediately on a selected object as currently is and that espionage must be undertaken to gain such information. This changes player strategy as they will think twice about attacking a world or ship they truly know nothing about, it also dramatically increases the importance of the Espionage ability (both SA and normal)

Scaling Speed/Range that larger maps have 'cheaper' engines to offset the length of real life time it takes in waiting for a ship to reach a destination. {I suggest however only a small reduction in Size/Cost, mostly for balance purposes.}

These suggestions, most of which have been stated prior, are generally only improvements on CURRENT game features and do not artificially or in an iron-handed manner hurt either advanced, moderate, or new players but should only add new layers of complexity to the game.

Thank you for taking the time to read it. I know it was big and I find myself to be guilty of often skipping the big ones. I do wish more people would read that post, as I think its got more options and better playability then most of the other ideas I've seen here. I really do believe there are simple ways to solve it, which add to the game immensely and open up more doors, rather then lame gamey solutions that just restrict options.

The cloaking could add immensely to something like this. However, you would only need a new component to add, a cloaking device. And then you'd need another sensor component to detect them. Simple, yet could seriously add to a game like this, especially if there now becomes a need to risk border intrusions. But even that is just a random side thought of adding options rather then restricting them.

Just make borders a set number of parsecs around your planets. Can be voted on at the UP. Can be an option in the settings. This can not be too complicated to work with on a coding level; at least not that I can fathom.

Then make it so you can attack people in your territory, who don't have right of passage, and give a pop up with an option of 1) attack (declare war), 2 diplomatic ejection. Simple solution. They can run the gauntlet. They can be caught. It can start a war, or it can be like deporting someone or how diplomats get ejected in real life. You have to catch them while in your territory but they risk a long trip home or even war for doing it. Reasonably realistic, easy to code, and when you put some thought into it, it opens up a lot of potential additional playability options, rather then restrictions.