The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil

Ha. Nice. Would you mind if I emailed this to my husband (giving you credit, of course)?

Of couse not, TW...I'd be honored. I'm currently fixing a few formatting problems, so give me a few moments

Edit: All done. Have at it!

Great article! Very thought-provoking... let me see if I can add to the discussion.

Maybe I'm a masochist of a different variety. I like discussing religion - basically of all types, but the only ones that seem to generate any healthy (and maybe sometimes not so healthy) debate are Christians.

It's not masochism... it's sadism. You like to inflict your ideas on others!

since Adam hadn't eaten of the tree of knowledge at the point this order was given, how was he supposed to know what it meant?

He may not have known good from evil, but he had the ability to follow simple instructions. This tree, BAD. Every other tree, GOOD.

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Genesis 3:22 So apparently the evil old snake wasn't lying. It looks to me that God was way pissed off that by eating the tree of knowledge of good and evil AND eating of the tree of life would make Adam and Eve to be Gods themselves.

When they ate of the tree of knowledge, Adam and Eve had become like God, knowing good from evil and having transgressed. If they'd also eaten from the tree of life, they'd have been immortal too -- thus negating the mission of Jesus Christ to pay for their (and everybody else's) sins. Now I'm not an original sin guy at all -- people are only accountable for their own sins and not their ancestors' -- but had they eaten the life fruit, Adam and Eve would have skipped the dying and judgment part and gone straight to their eternal, immortal reward.

And God said "Just because I put it there waving right in front of your face, looking all juicy and all, and even though I deliberately put it here when I could have kept it somewhere else doesn't mean you can eat from it. You understand that?"

Strange that God didn't know where Adam was hiding.

Good summary. Very funny! Adam had to choose for himself whether or not to eat that fruit. Though he didn't know good from evil, he still had his freedom to choose. That's also why God was asking for Adam rather than just appearing in front of him while Adam cowered behind the bushes. Adam had to confess his own transgression before the Lord, and he had to do so without compulsion. All about the agency, baby.

I planned to comment more but my day's up...

Thanks singrdave. There's more coming. You'll have plenty of time to explain to me how words don't mean anything - unless they do - what you and others want them to.

Ciao!

I think I will just read the comments and eat my popcorn.

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

"As it turns out, that, literally, was a lie."

Where's Adam? Where's Eve? Oh, that's right, they're DEAD. Hence... not a lie. You, much like the serpent, would say something like, "Oh you won't die NOW." which would be true, and makes a lot of sense in this world - one where people die. But, before they ate, nobody had died. At all. They weren't GOING to die, either, because they had the tree of life to eat from.

"Behold, the man is become as one of us"

1. There's something called the royal 'we'.
2. There's God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, all of which live forever. Could be refering to all of himself. When yourself has three parts like God does, you can call yourself 'us' too.

"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."

They were ashamed. Not to say nakedness is evil at all, but they were naked before God with their sins and naked before each other, and they were probably not at all liking each other at this point.

Adam: "I can't believe you ate from the one tree we're not allowed to."
Eve: "Well, you ate it too. And now we have the knowledge of good and evil!"
Adam: "Yeah, just enough knowledge to know you really messed this up."
Eve: "You were right there with me, why didn't you stop me? Huh? You know how I love fruit..."
Adam: "Stupid woman's lib movement."
Eve: "Ooooh no you didn't..."
Etc. Can you now see why they wanted to cover themselves?

"He punished all snakes that would ever live to be on their bellies and eat dust and such. Um. Weren't serpents on their bellies already?"

Guess not, huh, or it wouldn't have been much of a punishment. I don't know about the eating dust part, but I'm sure they do so. Not for food or anything, just like a little kid eating dirt...

"As for us men. We gotta grow our own food forever now. I guess. I mean this is the word of God, no? Oops...hold on. Microwave just went off. Gotta get my hotpockets."

Did you not toil for those hotpockets, playing bad music(playing well, I'm sure)? Or doing whatever it is Ocks do? Do you not have the inner drive to provide for your family? Every man does, though some opt to not even try for fear of failing.

"Because there was no other way to do it, I guess. Like remove the garden entirely or something. Actually, he planted it according to Genesis 2:8. Created the entire universe in 6 days but wanted to add a personal touch, I suppose. For some reason. "

Planted a garden, and you expect him to just remove it? Added his own person gift to us. Swords are cool. Flaming swords are cooler. What's wrong with having a flaming sword guarding a way somewhere? I see nothing but an awesome God there.

"And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat."

So the first thing Adam does is blame the wife. This is still going on today. No Adam, it's your fault. You should've spoken up and said something when she took some fruit. Something along the lines of, "God told us not to eat that, Eve." Instead, Adam was silent. This is still going on today. And, when given some from her, you could've said, "No, I'll pass, thanks." But no. You chose Eve over God. This is still going on today.

Before we had the knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve got to walk with God. Be with Him. Hang out with Him. Talk to Him, look at Him without dying, etc. They knew they should obey Him. They didn't, though, and now we have consequences.

I would put a bet that the pain of childbirth is more psychological than physical, by the way. Watching your kids grow up, making mistakes, maybe not even following Jesus...

Swords are cool. Flaming swords are cooler. What's wrong with having a flaming sword guarding a way somewhere?

To quote TW from another post:

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

HAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahahahahahaha

Ok...I think I'm done. No...wait....

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha

Ok. That's it.

I think I will just read the comments and eat my popcorn.

There's not going to be much to see here that will require popcorn. I am pronouncing myself a Christian, and therefore will not be debated on what the Holy Word of God says. It's not open for interpretation (except for mine) and that's all there is to it. So there. Isn't that how it goes?

Sigh, that was a copout. Ok, get your popcorn.

Where's Adam? Where's Eve? Oh, that's right, they're DEAD.

No they aren't. Adam and Eve, being the two from which we all came from, are alive and well inside of all of us. This is the eternal life we are all given. Genetics, son.

1. There's something called the royal 'we'. 2. There's God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, all of which live forever. Could be refering to all of himself. When yourself has three parts like God does, you can call yourself 'us' too.

Only if I'm a megolomaniac that punishes people for not thinking what they don't have the capacity to think...especially if I created them without that capacity on PURPOSE.

They were ashamed. Not to say nakedness is evil at all, but they were naked before God with their sins and naked before each other, and they were probably not at all liking each other at this point.

And you know this how? It's not in the book, Jythier. It says pretty damn clearly they ate the fruit, they became aware of their nakedness, and they covered it immediately. God wasn't even in proximity (taking the context later reported that he walked among them). How is it that you see fit to alter the word of God with your interpretation?

So the first thing Adam does is blame the wife. This is still going on today. No Adam, it's your fault. You should've spoken up and said something when she took some fruit.

There is no indication in the good book that Adam was anywhere around.

Something along the lines of, "God told us not to eat that, Eve." Instead, Adam was silent. This is still going on today. And, when given some from her, you could've said, "No, I'll pass, thanks." But no. You chose Eve over God. This is still going on today.

There's also no indication that Adam knew what he was eating when she gave it to him. He only realized afterward. ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE. But man he got the royal stick up his ass anyway, didn't he?

Before we had the knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve got to walk with God. Be with Him. Hang out with Him. Talk to Him, look at Him without dying, etc. They knew they should obey Him. They didn't, though, and now we have consequences.

No, not according to the book they didn't. They basically were like pets. They had no more idea that it was wrong to eat that fruit than my dog understands that it is wrong to steal food off our plates when we aren't looking. The only difference is, I don't send my dog to hell for it. I realize it is a part of his nature to like to eat things that look and smell tasty. And if I don't want him to get it, well I make sure I either look after my plate or put it somewhere he can NOT get it. I'm sorry. Is this concept too difficult for God?

Did you not toil for those hotpockets, playing bad music(playing well, I'm sure)?

Put this one out of order. Sorry. No, I didn't really toil for them at all. I used means that were born into me - and a thing that gives me joy to do - most of the time - to acquire those hotpockets. Do I do it well? Well, that's subjective. I could do it better, but I feel my competency as a musician is a digression, so I'll just leave it at that. Be more concerned - everyone - with your competency as a listener, and worry not about Ock's competency as a player. I will submit myslelf to judgement when the competency of the listener is proven.

I would put a bet that the pain of childbirth is more psychological than physical

One word of advice. Just one. Hide.

OK, now it's MY turn to quote TW!



Hahahahahahahahahahaha

HAHAHAHAHAhahahahahahahahahahaha

Ok...I think I'm done. No...wait....

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha

Ok. That's it.

Great response, Ock!

Great response, Ock!

Heh. Thanks Gid. I appreciate you dropping by.

When they ate of the tree of knowledge, Adam and Eve had become like God, knowing good from evil and having transgressed. If they'd also eaten from the tree of life, they'd have been immortal too -- thus negating the mission of Jesus Christ to pay for their (and everybody else's) sins. Now I'm not an original sin guy at all -- people are only accountable for their own sins and not their ancestors' -- but had they eaten the life fruit, Adam and Eve would have skipped the dying and judgment part and gone straight to their eternal, immortal reward.

Just because I forgot to comment on this. I think there is meaning here.

God never ANYWHERE told them not to eat of the tree of life. That tree wasn't forbidden until they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Now how different would things be, I wonder, if they had eaten the life fruit first? Ah well, another day, another silly blog pretending I know.

Which by the way, stay tuned for the subsequent chapters. It becomes really funny later.

So there. Isn't that how it goes?

pass the butter please.

By the pain of childbirth, I meant the 3 times the pain in childbearing is emotional, nto physical. It was going to physically hurt anyway. That's all I meant by that comment, not that it doesn't hurt.

"No they aren't. Adam and Eve, being the two from which we all came from, are alive and well inside of all of us. This is the eternal life we are all given. Genetics, son."

No, they're dead. They surely died. It's in the Bible that they died. And isn't that what this is all about?

"Only if I'm a megolomaniac that punishes people for not thinking what they don't have the capacity to think...especially if I created them without that capacity on PURPOSE."

Tree of knowledge of good and evil, not tree of brilliance. They already had logic and the ability to learn, follow directions, NOT follow directions, make choices, etc.

"There is no indication in the good book that Adam was anywhere around."

"and gave also unto her husband with her;"

No need to say much more.

"No, I didn't really toil for them at all. I used means that were born into me - and a thing that gives me joy to do - most of the time - to acquire those hotpockets."

Then I'm sorry, but you're going to have to give them back.

Seriously though, you did work for them, or you wouldn't have had money to buy them. Even if you enjoy your work, it's still work.

"Do I do it well? Well, that's subjective."

I only added the 'playing it well' so you wouldn't think I was trying to say you were a bad musician, just that you've been complaining about having to play crummy music, so I put 'bad music'.

Jythier: I will be surprised if you live to see 30 without having a woman light your penis on fire.

She'll never see it. It's something to be ashamed of.

I don't see work as toil, by the way. I see it as being.

O'dom = 'blood in the face.'

Ahhh...so Adam probably really wasn't named Adam until he saw Eve's naked complex parts that couldn't be made just from dust, probably got aroused over it, and was ashamed. I get it.

The hordes of men and women mentioned in Genesis 1 would later come to be known as 'The Mud People.' Heathen savages, souless by birth.

That actually in KJB? I haven't gotten that far.

Adam and Eve kept their bloodlines pure

Not really possible without the inbreeding of all their children, none of whom I have read are daughters, so even more not possible.

and thus we have caucasians appearing on this earth quite suddenly, and archeologically speaking, only about 6000 years ago. The mud people bones date back much further.

Now now. Carbon-14 dating isn't written about in the bible ANYwhere - which makes it clearly the invention of Satan-guided men. Just ask Walter McCrone.

We can discuss these theories more as I continue the series, but for the most part, I'm sticking very strictly to exactly what the book says.

And...there was no condemnation of incest in the Bible, at least not that early in the story.

Not to mention polygamy, but I haven't gotten that far, yet Probably will come in the next article.

I missed making a few responses, so I will now.

singrdave:

He may not have known good from evil, but he had the ability to follow simple instructions. This tree, BAD. Every other tree, GOOD.

Dave, what's the difference between bad and good and evil and good? I have to disagree with you. Without eating from this tree, there would be no way for Adam or Eve to understand the command.

When they ate of the tree of knowledge, Adam and Eve had become like God, knowing good from evil and having transgressed. If they'd also eaten from the tree of life, they'd have been immortal too -- thus negating the mission of Jesus Christ to pay for their (and everybody else's) sins

I am familiar with this concept of Adam and Eve HAD to sin so that Jesus could come and fix it all later, which to me is a really ridiculous way to go about treating your children, but that aside, if it DID go down, just that way, then why didn't God say "Hey...thanks Eve! You did exactly what I wanted and expected you to, and now my plan is right on track. I appreciate it!"

Jythier:

Where's Adam? Where's Eve? Oh, that's right, they're DEAD. Hence... not a lie.

I'm just reporting the facts straight from the book, J. The line clearly says "IN the day" not "AFTER the day."

Planted a garden, and you expect him to just remove it?

You have kids, right J? I don't recall. Actually after the comment about childbirth, no, you don't have kids yet. Still, you can imagine this scenario. If you have a basket full of baseballs, and you tell your two year old "Now no touchie the baseballs!" and your child promptly picks up a baseball and launches it through a nearby window the first second you aren't watching it, what are you going to do? Replace the glass and hand the kid another ball? Well, maybe you would. Right after berating them about how utterly bad they are as people. To your two year old you'd do this. And then you'd kick him out of the house and tell him that there is absolutley no way to ever get past this one. You told them not to touch the shiny baseballs, that you put in easy reach, and they touched them. Evil evil two year old!!!! SINNER!!!

I don't think you'd do any of these things. You'd say to yourself, "That was dumb of me. Two year olds are curious. I have no one to blame for that broken glass but myself. Then you'd replace the glass and move the basket to somewhere the two year old could no longer reach it, wouldn't you? Wouldn't you?

There's been some debate - very little, but some - in this thread about what exactly Adam and Eve knew before they ate from that tree. They seem to have been made full grown and with the ability to talk. They needed to eat, so they were already suffering before doing anything at all. Hunger being a form of suffering that requires continual maintenance to relieve - temporarily. What else did they know or not know? Not good and evil, for sure, but what else? What software package came default in Adam and Eve v1.0? Do they get to upgrade after being 1 day old? Nope, because it said right there in the EULA: In version 1.1, you'll be able to make a decision not to take certain actions - PROVIDED you have not yet taken those actions. This version will not be available until you DO take those actions.

The second installation is brewing in the back of my mind, but I have to wait for the snake to swallow his mouthful of dust so he can whisper it to me.

Maybe tomorrow.

I have two kids, by the way. And that comment on childbirth was completely misunderstood, and I clarified, but nobody cares about that because I'm just a guy, why would I even mention childbirth? How dare I say anything about it?

And 2 year olds do that WHILE you're watching them, by the way.

My oldest has quite an arm already, he's going to be two end of October.

Adam and Eve had all the information they needed and enough intelligence to not blindly follow directions, for sure. They did not have the intelligence of a two year old. They also knew their creator, that they had been created, and He had told them NOT to do a certain thing.

"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise,"

Sounds like someone's able to process things pretty well there. She didn't just do whatever she was told, she checks things out for herself. She didn't just do what the snake told her to do either. So why do you keep saying they were created stupid when they obviously were able to think for themselves?

For a master of the obvious, it should be so. I don't believe this story is real.

And I didn't say they were stupid, in fact I went into detail about wondering what exactly DID they know, because we can debate their comprehension levels all day long, but the result is the same - what were their actions? That's the only indicator we really have of their ability to comprehend. What they DID.

Whenever I ponder this stuff, there's only one thought process I can go to - my own. That process is that if I was Adam, or Eve for that matter, and I understood the directive of the being that made me, not only would I not eat that fruit, I'd probably live as far away from that tree as possible. God would say "Ock, don't eat from that tree over there" and Ock would say "I'll go you one better, Dad, I won't even look at it." I'd be surprised by anyone saying that if things were as described - God created Adam, then Eve, and they KNEW He did so - that if in their shoes they'd say "Oh yeah. I'd eat from that tree immediately." That's what makes it difficult for me to believe that Eve could be so cavalier about it. And if I did eat of it and found myself caught, my reaction would not be to point fingers. Adam pointed to Eve (blame). Eve pointed at the snake (blame) I'd have pointed at myself (and I do daily). Again, I am surprised they didn't which is why the story lacks versimilitude for me.

Of course you'd eat that fruit, Ock. You're eating it right now, when confronted with Jesus. The one thing he told you you need to do, and you ignore it instead. You ARE eating the fruit.

If you weren't going to eat the fruit, it would've been, "Believe in Jesus." "I'll go you one better Dad, I'll believe in Jesus AND try to live like He did."

Also, God gave ADAM the command directly, not Eve.

She knew. Obviously she knew, she talked about it with the snake. But God had given the command beforehand, to Adam. Adam told Eve. She disobeyed her husband, and her God. She knew just as well what He had said, even though He did not speak to her directly on the subject.

Adam was not deceived by Eve. He knew what he was doing when he ate the fruit. He was following Eve instead of God.

F in Objectivism.