ok well ima stay ou tof this from now on then (i think) cause people like to associate weed with everything bad....ALCOHAL is much worse and it kills more than most drugs out there...i wish alcohol was illegal and weed was legal...i'd be one happy camper then...and to all who say its a bad "DRUG"                                 

Looks at the date of this thread.

Doc, I actually agree with most of what's in that link......fact is an average smoker uses around 20 cigarettes a day. Even a heavy daily pot smoker won't consume 50% of that, most of the effects listed are reversible,  so I'll stand by my statement.

k10w3 - I'm won't argue the definition of "responsible" use unless you mean like the "responsible" use of alcohol. I can be an alcoholic and still use it responsibly. In fact with years of use an alcoholic can use it more responsbly than a casual drinker due to a higher tolerance.

iwas - I agree.......speeding and cheating on taxes are wrong too..........but I'll admit that I indulge in speeding on a daily basis.

jojo25 - I'm glad alcohol ISN'T illegal.  It was illegal once, and we, as a nation, decided prohibition was a failure, which caused more problems than it fixed.  If only we'd have TRULY learned that lesson, cannabis would not be illegal right now!

Lantec, I agree with you.  It's true, an addict (a skilled addict) can use any given substance responsibly and that is fine with me.  Responsible use, to me, means it does not infringe upon the rights of others -- as a free country, we should not prohibit the responsible use of anything for people of legal age.  I don't believe that cannabis should be as easily accessible as bottled water, but, unfortunately, BECAUSE it is illegal, it's more easily accessible to children than it is to grown adults -- because criminals now control the flow of pot, rather than upstanding businessman (who would pay their taxes on their goods sold, and purchase business licenses, and follow all the rest of the local, state and federal laws on their business).

Ahh....you drive I-4?

You are a BAD BAD man we should label you speedster and se to that you go to support groups and give you something to calm you down so you dont speed.... Speed kills dont you know?!? You go insane and you can DIE!! dont you care about those around you your family!?!?! OMG you are so evil.. and no im not overeacting... no im not i promise im not joking no no no sir... or AM I mohhahaha....(<-evil laugh)  

Damn, talk about drudging up an old thread.*******In my day(60's) we had sex, drugs and booze and fast cars.  Ah but life goes on and we get older and our life styles change or our job forces change on you.

no school like the oldschool and WOM is the headmaster

What could be more wrong.  A crack, heroin or especially a meth addict handle nothing responsibly.  The people that handle those drugs responsibly are selling them not using them, and they are running a second economy in this and other countries.  What the addicts are responsible for is 85% of the crime committed in this country and the numbers and degree of violence are escalating.

Yeah, I missed that.  I was too busy being a stuck up, judgmental, self-righteous, abstaining straight arrow, and all that got me was NOT invited to the party, and a whole lot of loneliness.  All of us could write a book about how we'd do it differently, if we could.

But if those substances were LEGAL, the ruthless bastards that are running them now, along with all the unsavory and seamy issues that go along with their business practices, would be placed in the hands of upstanding farmers and small businessmen.  THAT is what we ostensibly learned from prohibition when it was practiced against alcohol.

....i like that answer

 

As with any drug, with wide spread acceptance and use will come the enlarged numbers of related fatalities. hard to add up the numbers if no one is really counting them.... It would be sufficient to say if any other drug were allowed on the market for recreational use the numbers would climb dramatically. More people dieing at the hands of the irresponsible, IMO is not a good idea.. call me crazy.

The issue is not if drugs are bad for you, in one aspect or another all "substances" have some detrimental effects on the body."Especially when over indulged". To deny this is almost as silly as those who refuse to admit there are legitimate uses for mind/mood altering substances.

The issue at large is the problem of we are having a problem with society and Alcohol abuse, if other drugs are allowed to fall in to accepted domain, will this increase the already huge burden we as a society already have to deal with? Alcohol related fatalities aside, look at the goverment $$ spent on treatment, be it medical problems related, or treatment of addiction or what have you.

Not to mention the social ramifications with the one Drug we already have freely available.

Im sorry if I do not believe society at large will benefit from another Legal drug. Not because I do not think they can be utilized for recreational purposes, quite the contrary. But society at large is generally of the exessive nature with little self control, thus all the Drunk drivers we have running over folks. We can  hardly go a week at work without atleast one nut bag wasted out on somthing including alcohol, crashing in to our equipment or driving thru the job site narrowly missing folks. I have buried more than one friend and family member due to the negligence of others who were indulging in some form of mind altering substance.

In a perfect world where people knew thier limits, abided by them and acted responsibly.., I could see it. But with society thriving on excess and instant gratification and irresponsibility as it is today.. I cant.

The "Alcohol is legal so why not pot "arguement is IMO as silly as they come, as soon as another drug is legalized then the next will say the same. Il wager in 30 years after all the real effects of legalized pot on the body and society were tabulated, cocaine will not seem as bad either. Then the arguement will be. "weed is legal why not coke?"

No im not a Non user. I'm a former one.

 

 

 

 

Zero tollerance. Zero respect.

 

HG here you go

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe208nLLEwk

And using Holland as the only viable indicator for the westworld...

Social Indicator	Comparison Year	USA	Netherlands
Lifetime prevalence of marijuana use (ages 12+)	2001	36.9% 1	17.0% 2
Past month prevalence of marijuana use (ages 12+)	2001	5.4% 1	3.0% 2
Lifetime prevalence of heroin use (ages 12+)	2001	1.4% 1	0.4% 2
Incarceration Rate per 100,000 population	2002	701 3	100 4
Per capita spending on criminal justice system (in Euros)	1998	€379 5	€223 5
Homicide rate per 100,000 population	Average 1999-2001	5.56 6	1.51 6

The problem isn't that most alcohol users, hard core alcoholics or pot smokers won't murder you or your family to get money for their addiction.  The problem is that hard drug addicts can't control themselves or their addiction like most alcohol/pot users can.  When the addiction from those drugs takes over, they will do crime to get the $5.00 legal cost the same as they would for the $20.00 illegal cost.  Drugs AND alcohol are not victim-less.

Now before anyone thinks I'm some sort of Bible thumping prude.  I assure you I'm not.  I'm a child of the 60's and 70's.  I've seen it all and done most.  I've also see lives ruined and lives lost over "just one drink" or "it's only a joint".  I quit drugs when I grew up at 20.  It took a bit longer, until 40 to quit drinking.  I'm nearing 60 and the past 20 years though fraught with health issues have been so much better than the first 40.

This issue is like politics and religion.  None of us will win.  We can argue for 50 pages on this thread and yet nothing will be gained.

Fact: There is no compelling evidence that marijuana contributes substantially to traffic accidents and fatalities. At some doses, marijuana affects perception and psychomotor performances- changes which could impair driving ability. However, in driving studies, marijuana produces little or no car-handling impairment- consistently less than produced by low moderate doses of alcohol and many legal medications. In contrast to alcohol, which tends to increase risky driving practices, marijuana tends to make subjects more cautious. Surveys of fatally injured drivers show that when THC is detected in the blood, alcohol is almost always detected as well. For some individuals, marijuana may play a role in bad driving. The overall rate of highway accidents appears not to be significantly affected by marijuana's widespread use in society.

*  Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse. “Legalization: Panacea or Pandora’s Box”. New York. (1995):36.
*  Swan, Neil. “A Look at Marijuana’s Harmful Effects.” NIDA Notes. 9.2 (1994): 14. 
*  Moskowitz, Herbert and Robert Petersen. Marijuana and Driving: A Review. Rockville: American Council for Drug Education, 1982. 7.
*  Mann, Peggy. Marijuana Alert. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1985. 265. 

(from Myths and Facts About Marijuana - http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:6S9-cyum5tQJ:www.marijuanafacts.org/+marijuana-related+fatalities&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

Look at the government $$ spent on the investigation, prosecution, sentencing and imprisoning/jailing of pot offenders?  

"Prisons cost taxpayers more than $32 billion a year. Every year that an inmate spends in prison costs $22,000. An individual sentenced to five years for a $300 theft costs the public more than $100,000. The cost of a life term averages $1.5 million." -  From "Prison Facts" http://www.heartsandminds.org/prisons/facts.htm



See above cited text from Myths and Facts.

Again, please see  http://www.mcwilliams.com/books/aint/101.htm

The United States government , regardless of which direction it tends to be leaning of its own accord, was never invented to be a substitute parent, a nanny, a babysitter or a life coach.  To quote the late Peter McWilliams, "United States Constitution and its Bill of Rights clearly give us the right to pursue our lives without the forced intervention of moralists, do-gooders, and busybodies."  Only when I am judged incompetent, is the government allowed to intervene in my own rule over my life.  Obviously, the more power we allow the government to have, the more it will take.  The founding fathers warned us about it.  We should take heed.

Ed, what your talking about should be a medical issue, not a criminal one.  "Hard core" addicts, the type that are so addicted they'd become violent to acquire what they need, have a medical condition - a psychiatric disorder, "the addictive personality" which manifests itself with any mood-altering substance.  If you take away their access to crack, they'll cook something up with household cleaners and over the counter remedies and use the crap out of that.  People huff spray paint, and abuse White-Out...one of my son's Army buddies was kicked out of the service for huffing canned air when they were in Iraq, because they didn't have access to anything there. 

Is it right, in a free country, to deny everyone access to a substance because a less than majority percentage of it's citizens has a psychiatric problem with that substance?  I don't see anybody closing down Krispy Creme because you're diabetic (and we have a lot more diabetics in this country than we do hard core drug addicts).

Im not saying that leagalizing pot wouldnt slow the use, it may or may not, one countrys success story while being admirable, is not a guarantee it will be sucessful else where.

My issue is that with making it legally available to the masses IMO invites abuse on a larger scale. Why is alcohol the #1 in fatalities among all the drugs in the US? I would think it's because, its cheap, easily accesible and promoted as the "Fun enhancer" society needs to make it thru the day.

 

Lets look at it this way, we leaglize pot, and all then the fatalities to wasted drivers doubles or tripples. Is it worth it? To me the chances for damage to society is too great a risk to warrant the experiment of legalizing pot for recreational use.

the only way I see it to work is if the consequences for crimes comitted under the influence would match'd the crime comitted. kill somone while driving under the influence? get the chair.... But we all know society wont make those types of demands because the masses don't want to be responsible for thier actions. thus drunk drivers loose thier licence's, yeh they just drive witthout them. The US has never really hunkerd down on those who imbibe and act stupidly, thus the problems we currently face with alcohol.

 

I do not see it coming about any time soon either. last year we had a drunk woman who at 80 mph ran in to the back of one of our tankers. she survived * a tribute to air bags*, totalled her mercedes and our $100,000 specialized tanker.  She happend to be a lawyer, so she tries to sue us for being in the way while she was on her drunken binge. Never mind she drove thru a mile of cones and arrowboards, never mind we were working at nite and had the equipment lit up like christmas with all the strobe lights etc. She took no responsiblity for her actions and like society at large tried to push the consequences off on others.

With society at the large having this mind set I can not in good conscience think that adding to the list of legally available drugs would be beneficial..

I do fully support it for medicinal and industrial uses Hemp is one of the most versatile plants known.

But realisticaly were not talking about making it legal for those uses, most are interested in the consumption for recreation, and until people at large starts taking responsibility for their actions, I can not endorse it.

 

With any study there are always some proving the other side of the coin.. Ive seen plenty stating the opposite over the years..

I for a fact know the effects on the body, being around users most my life as well as formerly being one. So to quote me studies is redundant as Ive experienced first hand. Ive felt the effects as well as seen them in real practice, not a controled experiment that could be tainted by the reviewers adjenda.

I agree government shouldnt need to be the enforcing factor, but with parents not teaching their children to be responsible for their actions, it falls on us as a society to deal with them.

Laws against drinking and driving for example, is a lack of freedom for those who want to drive while under the influence, But it is a necessary one for the preservation of life. Which IMO out weighs the loss of the freedom. it should just be common sence not to drive drunk, but apparently theres plenty out there who have none..

Not if I can help it..........but if I do, I'm usually in first place

You're contradicting yourself in the two posts, HG_Eliminator.  In the first post you say, "The US has never really hunkerd down on those who imbibe and act stupidly, thus the problems we currently face with alcohol," and then you say in the next post "Laws against drinking and driving for example, is a lack of freedom for those who want to drive while under the influence, But it is a necessary one for the preservation of life."

So in the one post you say we have laws against drinking and driving (but they don't work) and then you say we should keep pot illegal, just like we have laws against drinking and driving (which causes a lack of freedom for those who want to drive while under the influence). 

You KNOW potheads (according to your post)...how many of them drive like drunks?  I've known both drunks and potheads, and I've known polysubstance abusers (drunken potheads) and I preferred them to be high than to be drunk, because when they were high, they were loving, kind, and patient and when they were drunk, they were @ssholes who thought it was okay to punch me in the eye for packing my bags to leave them. I've also known straight arrows who were hopped up on too much coffee, who would think nothing of running a red light and flipping off the person they cut off to do it.  Should we ban coffee?  (I should note, if you say yes, I'm going to have to shank ya.)  

I wouldn't invade someone's home and possibly murder the occupants in order steal money to buy a dozen glazed donuts.  Addiction a medical/psychiatric condition yes.  But you're treating the wrong end of the problem.  Stop people from becoming addicted. Please don't tell me that as an intelligent woman you truly believe there should be no laws regulating drugs or that most people can/could control themselves using drugs like meth.  That people should have the right to do whatever they want.  Society would turn into utter chaos with the thugs in control.

 I'm truly sorry about you're grandshildren being in the situation they're in. It's trully infortunate that not only you're grandchildren, but many many children are now going through truly tough times caused by drugs abuse. This is not a situation only on this side of the planet but from all over our small world.

 I'm sure you would want to do everything possible to prevent this from happening to any one else. So do you think it's a responsible behaviour to say that marijuana is the cause of this. Or would it make more sence, and would it be more helpfull to tell the truth about what other substances were found in you're daughters bloodstream, Let's face it and admit that lieing about drugs is simply lieing.

Not a contradiction, but the fact that IMO laws are necessary, tho the current ones are weak and less than effective as a full deterant. tThus really we have not "hunkered down on drunk driving", we have at the current only really taken half assed swipes at detering drunk drivers. If the laws werent there at all the numbers for fatalities would be much higher. tho with stricter consequences.. they could be further dropped.

 

Yes IMO until we as a nation can make our laws strict enough to really deter fools from driving drunk, and actually get them to start acting responsible, I do not think adding another group of embibers behind the ,wheel is a wise choice.

 

 

I seriously doubt these morons only drove like this when drinking coffee. and again only reinforces my asertations of the society refusing to act responsibly, and thier inability to make Good choices in reguards to the safety of others....

Also comparing coffee to Pot in the aspect of mood/mind altering properties, is tantamount to comparing meth to asprin. no real correlation there.

Id no less deny your coffee than id allow you to take away my tea. tho if either caused people start mass killing with vehicles. I may have to rethink my standings;)

 

Actually a few drive worse than drunks, thus why I dont let them drive me around any more. One actually thinks hes invisible to cops when stoned, but with no license and 10 accidents on his record due to thinking hes a nascar driver when stoned and driving. I beg to differ. And I know he does not drink nor do heavier drugs. His only passion is pot.

 

Refusing to realize any and ALL substances when "abused" will effect an unborn fetus, is the biggest lie of all.

Any and I mean anything, even food when abused is unhealthy, to deny this is foolhardy at best, to call others liars just because one refuses to believe the obvious, is silly..