Sorry.

Which god are we talking about? Zeus, Sheba, Allah, Christian god, or any number of gods that have been invented throughout mans history.
Every religion thinks they are right yet can they all be right? And if not then who is right and who is wrong.
The concept of what is 'Right' and what is 'Wrong' varies depending on what religion you worship or society you live in.
So my question to all is what is the actual truth. I don't expect an answer because I know for a fact that none of you know. You may think you know based on personal belief but you cannot prove it.
Also to the OP, I firmly believe (but cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt) that the universe is the Alpha and Omega and everything in between. And I firmly believe that it was never created, but has and always will exist.
And I also believe that every religion that man has ever invented is wrong. But then again Science does not know the answer either. However the only way to discover the wonders of the universe is through true science. Scientist must have an open mind and be willing to explore new theories even if it disrupts a current popular theory that they support. Science becomes no different than religion once they close their minds and stubbornly stick to theory and bashes any who try to challenge it. , which has happened from time to time.
Now the OP’s rudeness when stating this thread was uncalled for and even if I do agree with many of his points. He has to realize that there are others who have strong beliefs and will see is rudeness as an attack on their beliefs. As a result they will close their minds to anything the OP has to say.

I really respect what you wrote.

Has it occured to you that the statement that you quoted may not be correct. We do not know everything about how the universe runs. We just have bits and pieces and even that knowledge is limited. Maybe there is some mechanism that we have yet to discover that allows order in the universe with out just stamping the word god on it and be done with it. Just because science has not discover why there is order in the universe does not mean that there is a all knowing being creating everything.

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
-- Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press



can you give me an example? for now, i must assume that said "scientist" had little idea about the mechanisms of evolution, and perhaps just as little about thermodynamics.

>>as A sidenote. for all you religious . please go to your library and look for books written by historians whom lived at the time of jesus christ and you will find not one mention of the man. . only in the bible does it mention a man names jesus christ.
this book was written around 500-600 ad.600 years or so after this man purportedly
lived.

Ooooo, so sorry. You're completely wrong there. Look up a fellow named Josephus, who was a paganized Jew living at the time of Christ. You may want to look up a bit more history before making false statements that are based on your assumptions alone.

This part is wrong also. The Old Testament Scripture was written before the birth of Christ and the Gospels were written within the living memory of Jesus. Living memory is that time extending to when everyone who has known people who knew of a person or even have died. The years you are thinking of are actually when the Bible was compiled.

Here is why I belive God created life. A car would never just randomly appear in the woods unless humans created said car. You couldn't just throw the right amount of raw aluminum, steel, etc. in a giant cauldrin, mix it for a billion years, and ever expect that a 2003 Pontiac Vibe will magically pop out of the bowl. Kind of like how when you drop a bunch of playing cards onto a table, they would practically never magically all fall into a perfect deck. No, humans (the creator of a deck of cards) must apply intelligence and produce a deck of cards through keen applications of their hands (or force).

How can it be that all kinds of random proteins, amino acids, etc, thrown into a giant cauldrin (Earth 4 billion years ago), could ever have produced even the simplest bacteria that can basically move around and respond to stimuli on its own?? "Just add lightning and nitrogen and bingo your new life kit will work????????????" (Kind of like Chea-pet??) The simplest of bacteria are like fairly advanced robots. Again, could a robot ever created by humans (like those used in the robot competions) randomly "create themselves" by just throwing in a bunch of robot parts into a mixer with electricity added in???

A creator or God makes more sense. Of course, who created God??? If the universe has always been, how can that be??? How can something have no begining? If matter-energy cannot be created or destroyed, then how the heck did this all get here if it wasn't created???

Clearly we humans don't understand..

This is what the bible says.

You are basically saying the Bible is true because the bible says the bible is true. What sources other than the bible can we look up to give some validation to the bible?

actually, the gospel of john was written 90-120AD. the bible canon was assembled in the 4th century AD (council of nicea, 325AD). Please also see my earlier posts.

I want to kill the piece of dog do do who invoked the council of nicea. Ever since that blasted day, the single greatest lie ever perpetrated throughout human history has been spread. It is the lie of all lies. The lie that you must accept Jesus or go to Hell forever. Eternal damnation is a lie.

yawn. you are too intelligent for that kind of half-baked bollox. the likelyhood of a car
appearing is zero. the likelyhood of god "making" a car appear is the same.



yes. which is why it took millions of years for bacteria to evolve. have you read my earlier posts? if you are interested in the origin of life, look up "catalytic clays" and "RNA world".



no it doesn't. it makes less sense, because now not only do you have to explain the appearance of life, you ALSO have to explain the appearance of god IN ADDITION.



mankind, of course.

good news for you! he's already dead.

How is the likelyhood of a car randomly appearing without human intervention zero (despite millions and billions of years) when apparently it is possible that bacteria can form after a million years without a "something" (God) creating said bacteria? You seem to defeat your own argument.

If you are interested in the after-life and God, read "Life to Life", "nothing better than death", and visit www.near-death.com.

Here is a novel idea. Why not explain to me exactly why the probability of a car randomly appearing without human intervention is zero when apparently there is a probability greater than 0 that life can form from proteins, amino acide, random gases, etc without any creator.

Or I could just be like you and call you a stupid do do head for not believing in God and the after-life.

proof of god


genes.


it takes 100,000 genes to make a human. it takes 100,000 genes to make a worm.

ie the animals on the planet were reversed engineered from man.


the other thing about genes are that they are computer programs.

dear danielost, "proof of no god":
the actual numbers are much lower.
a human has about 25,000 genes
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/21/science/21gene.html?ex=1188014400&en=3758e41da905cb3c&ei=5070

and a worm, let's take c.elegans as an example, has about 20,000
http://genomebiology.com/2001/2/11/comment/2008

i have no clue what you are trying to say about computer programs, but a gene is certainly very much unlike one.

no. you obviously don't have the first idea of how evolution works. i don't blame you. your high-school biology curriculum probably sucked.



I'll get straight to the point. evolutionary biology is a scientific field of study that you can't sum up in a sentence. go to college, study it. six to eight years from now, when you've got your PhD, you'll have some arguments.

as for how life formed, i just told you. i'll gladly outline it for you. ready?

first, you have a mixture of salts, clays, acids and some organic molecules that form naturally from gases and the formerly named reagents under intense reaction conditions like UV radiation, lightning strike, etc. bear in mind that some billion years ago, the earth was very different from today. from these reagents, more complex organic molecules form, like the bases that (still) appear in today's DNA and RNA.
the set of organic molecules is expanded by surface catalysis on clays, mostly in aqueous conditions (hence, look up:catalytic clays).
the first critical step is the advent of sugars. DNA and RNA bases are linked by ribose, which is only generated by living organisms. however, bases can also productively linked by different linkers than sugar- a technique that is routinely employed today. so, utilizing these non-sugar linkers, RNA-like molecules form. RNAs are now known to be able to possess catalytic activity, and can act on their own kind: other RNAs. they can also assist on their own generation, therefore, the first replicators are here! mutation and selection can begin. thus, the spectrum of molecules is further expanded, and a network of reactions is established. a primitive metabolism, that can produce all sorts of small biological molecules.
the next challenge is the acquisition of a membrane. in our scenario, lipids can already be generated from primitive carbon precursors using catalytic clays or RNAs, or the environmental conditions like lightnings. at places of high catalytic capacity, probably rocks, reasonably large amounts of lipids are now generated, and can, for example by water movement, form micelles, little lipid bubbles, in which the catalysts floating around in the water are also included. the first proto-cell has arrived on the scene! the membranes are simple and thus not perfect, and proto-cells will meet and fuse with other protocells, and exchange metabolites. among the metabolites are also amino acids and short peptides, which arise from amino acids under the right conditions. now longer stretches of nucleotides form, and probably sugars are there by now, so here is when DNA appears. the first "real" genes appear, and they probably include the sequence of all catalytically active RNAs, because only these are replicating, and the rest don't multiply beyond random occurrence. the genes multiply and mutate, and the RNAs that bind to this primitive genome start reacting with the present amino acids in a coordinated manner. this is possible because all the reactions that occur within the proto-cell change its interior environment. therefore, protein coding begins. proteins in turn act on the present metabolites, and further expand the metabolism. they also cooperate with the RNA replicators to establish a "true" genome.
well, a couple million years have passed, and we now pretty much have a bacterium (more archae-bacterium, rather).

anyway, if you are truly interested in how life formed, get a scientific introduction to evolution and the origin of life. i bet there are a couple of good books out there.
all you need is the physical laws. no supernatural intervention required.

lets see what is a computer program. why it is the thing that tells the computer what to do.


lets see what is a gene. why it is the thing that tells the cell what to do.



looks the same to me. but because i don't have a doctorate or something that must mean that i am wrong. and some idiot with one must be right. but then that idiot seems to be able to look at life and say it was all an accident.


the fact that there couldn't be the type of life that we know on this earth unless we had a moon.

the fact that there couldn't be the type of life that we know unless we were in the orbit that we are in.

the fact that unlike the other 5 species that are self aware we are the ones sitting in a house.

the fact that we have been trying to kill each other since the beginning of time over something that just isn't there.

but i do believe that a computer program and a gene do the same job.

A few years ago I had a NDE and nothing in that experience convinced me that a god exist. However I can see how people may come to that conclusion. I to saw the tunnel of life and figures in that light. I even that calming effect. But nothing to suggest that there is one all powerful being running the show. I am convinced there is an after life but what that consist of I have no idea because there was no indication in my NDE as to what would have happened had I 'gone into the light' so to speak. But the light and the well being feeling were not nearly as impressive as the hovering over the operating table seeing what the doctors were doing and being able to verify that what I saw them doing did indeed happen. This alone was the only thing in the whole experience that makes me believe in life after death. And also what I have mention in a previous comment the sighting of a ghost several year before my NDE. But just because there is life after death does not mean that there has to be a god in charge of it. And nowhere in the NDE eyewitness accounts that I have read is there anything that can prove that there is a god in the traditional sense. People tend to make assumptions based on personal belief when face with an experience beyond anything that have encountered before and an NED is no exception.
To many as you have stated NED is proof positive that God exist. However the god that these people think exist based on their NDE will differ depending on what religion they are. Christians will see their god, Muslims will see Allah, Ancient Greeks would have seen one of a host of gods more likely the god of the underworld or their personal patron god etc. So you see the NED could be interpreted many different ways. So which way is right? Who’s god or gods does a NDE prove?

I'll get straight to the point. evolutionary biology is a scientific field of study that you can't sum up in a sentence. go to college, study it. six to eight years from now, when you've got your PhD, you'll have some arguments.

as for how life formed, i just told you. i'll gladly outline it for you. ready?

first, you have a mixture of salts, clays, acids and some organic molecules that form naturally from gases and the formerly named reagents under intense reaction conditions like UV radiation, lightning strike, etc. bear in mind that some billion years ago, the earth was very different from today. from these reagents, more complex organic molecules form, like the bases that (still) appear in today's DNA and RNA.
the set of organic molecules is expanded by surface catalysis on clays, mostly in aqueous conditions (hence, look up:catalytic clays).
the first critical step is the advent of sugars. DNA and RNA bases are linked by ribose, which is only generated by living organisms. however, bases can also productively linked by different linkers than sugar- a technique that is routinely employed today. so, utilizing these non-sugar linkers, RNA-like molecules form. RNAs are now known to be able to possess catalytic activity, and can act on their own kind: other RNAs. they can also assist on their own generation, therefore, the first replicators are here! mutation and selection can begin. thus, the spectrum of molecules is further expanded, and a network of reactions is established. a primitive metabolism, that can produce all sorts of small biological molecules.
the next challenge is the acquisition of a membrane. in our scenario, lipids can already be generated from primitive carbon precursors using catalytic clays or RNAs, or the environmental conditions like lightnings. at places of high catalytic capacity, probably rocks, reasonably large amounts of lipids are now generated, and can, for example by water movement, form micelles, little lipid bubbles, in which the catalysts floating around in the water are also included. the first proto-cell has arrived on the scene! the membranes are simple and thus not perfect, and proto-cells will meet and fuse with other protocells, and exchange metabolites. among the metabolites are also amino acids and short peptides, which arise from amino acids under the right conditions. now longer stretches of nucleotides form, and probably sugars are there by now, so here is when DNA appears. the first "real" genes appear, and they probably include the sequence of all catalytically active RNAs, because only these are replicating, and the rest don't multiply beyond random occurrence. the genes multiply and mutate, and the RNAs that bind to this primitive genome start reacting with the present amino acids in a coordinated manner. this is possible because all the reactions that occur within the proto-cell change its interior environment. therefore, protein coding begins. proteins in turn act on the present metabolites, and further expand the metabolism. they also cooperate with the RNA replicators to establish a "true" genome.
well, a couple million years have passed, and we now pretty much have a bacterium (more archae-bacterium, rather).

anyway, if you are truly interested in how life formed, get a scientific introduction to evolution and the origin of life. i bet there are a couple of good books out there.
all you need is the physical laws. no supernatural intervention required.




so lets see if i got this right. the cell membrane is formed by a water bubble.

why don't you come out and say it you have no idea of how life formed and started on earth.

and i guess you still say that a gene program of life. is not anything like a computer program program of artificial life.

Or maybe not. The argument put forth in favor of god in the previous post that this poster is commenting on was all weak arguments. And I might remind you that we do kill each other for gain and that we do have a stong selfish streak in us. The other so called 'God givin traits' can be explained because we are a social animal. Just because one being does a good thing for another being does not mean that some higher force is making them play nice with each other.